The Biblical Creation myth and science

[Jane_the_Bane]

This question applies first and foremost to Creationists who believe that the Bible is in no way allegorical and the only real factbook out there:

In the Bible, the Earth (and life!) were created BEFORE there was a sun. Well, this is, scientifically speaking, absolutely impossible, for the simple reason that

1. the planets couldn't take shape without the sun to revolve around. It's about gravitation, you know?

2. Life is impossible without sunlight. So even if we ignore the unimportant trifle that there could not be a planet earth without the sun being there first, temperatures would be somewhere near the absolute Zero, making life impossible. Some bloke once claimed that the light of distant stars was sufficient, but hey, just take a look at the Planet Neptune, will ya? Or even Mars, if you like. In order to be habitable, a planet must be close to a sun - but not too close. If it's too far away, it turns into an assembly of frozen gases. If it's too near, it becomes an incinerator for every proteine that might try to form there.

Now please don't give me the classic "God can do as he likes"-theme. Because clearly, what he did was not what is described in the Bible: First the sun, THEN the planets, THEN life. Not the other way round.

There's a simple explanation for the order things are presented in the genesis-account: Ignorance on the Hebrew's part. They thought that the sun was revolving around the earth and served no other purpose than to illuminate. They just didn't know any better.

Still, I'd like to know how you try to wriggle out of this one.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Another trifle:

The Hebrews were pretty eager to somehow prove that men were superior to women, and that patriarchal structures were installed by God as early as the Creation. Therefore, they came up with their ridiculous account of how the first woman was "given birth" by the first man.

Well, genetics tell us something else: The y-chromosome is a later addition to life on earth, and very instable as it is. In fact, it gets shorter all the time, and is by now not even able to repair itself any longer. One third of all cases of male infertility can be traced back to the decaying y-chromosome.

Which propels us to another field: Reproduction and death. Physical death is not due to some divine punishment, judging by genetics, but aimed at making way for following generations. It came along when early life-forms started to mix their genes instead of just copying their own genetic info time and again.

 

[qkumba]

I'm not a Creationist, but I simply want to agree with you. If you attempt to pick holes in the Genesis creation story, you'll find many. For instance, why would God decide to create the sun and moon "to give light upon the earth" (1:15) when he'd already created definite periods of light and darkness (1:3-5)? However, I'd suggest that the way to approach the Bible is not as a science textbook, but rather as a series of documents capturing the writers' experiences of God. So, in the creation myth we see not a history of how it was done but a statement that God is sovereign, among other things.

True, some Christians will stick rigidly to the literal interpretation of this passage, but this position is intellectually untenable.

 

[Jinn_Ku]

Perhaps some of your questions come from ignorance of the text.

1. Why did you assumed life was created before the sun? This is not the case as simply reading the text will show you. You even said, "First the sun, THEN the planets, THEN life."

2. Planets cannot take shape without a star (sun) to revolve around. Alright, how do you believ the stars form?

I find it quite interesting that "science" says the Biblical account cannot possibly be correct, yet has no proof, or scientifically sound theory of it's own. According to science, we cannot be here, yet we are. Perhaps the same scrutiny that is applied to the Bible should be applied to science.

"Now please don't give me the classic "God can do as he likes"-theme."
What is 2+2, and don't give me that classic "4" theme.

 

[artybloke]

I find it quite interesting that "science" says the Biblical account cannot possibly be correct, yet has no proof, or scientifically sound theory of it's own.

Sorry, but if you're going to answer non-Christians, don't post lies. Evolution is one of the most proved theories on the block, and it shames me that some Christians try to shoehorn a literalistic interpretation of the Bible onto everyone.

And I think it shames Christ to think that some Christians use lies and self-delusion instead of seeking the truth.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

According to the Genesis, night and day were created before there was a sun. The sun was just a later addition, according to the text. This alone should be sufficient proof that people back then had not the slightest clue of even the most simple phenomena of astronomy.

And thank you very much, artybloke: I assure you that I don't confuse creationism with christianity in general. It just pains me to see that some folks cannot hold on to their belief in god without taking things out of their historical context and taking everything literal.

I think those people are not worried because it might interfere with the glory of God. (I find it just as remarkable to imagine God creating a universe that's evolving all the time, in fact even more fascinating than the vision of a stagnant creation that's never changing at all.) What troubles them is the fact that things aren't anthropocentric any more. It's not God that's become too small because of science - it's Man. The very idea of being but one small race on a minuscule world at the edge of a collossal galaxy instead of the pivotal point of the whole of creation must be very frightening to them, to say the least. But again, they fail to notice that we are no less important, because God knows no limitations, and loves us just as he loves the whole Creation.

 

[qkumba]

Perhaps some of your questions come from ignorance of the text.

1. Why did you assumed life was created before the sun? This is not the case as simply reading the text will show you.

Read the text, Jinn_Ku. The sun is created after the first lifeforms are created. Verse 11 sees God creating "vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind..." but only in verse 16 is the sun referred to (assuming that the sun is the "greater light to rule the day" described here).

Light is supposedly created before that (verse 3), but the sun is not mentioned here, as it is formed separately. This therefore begs the question of what made the light in the sky before the sun, moon and stars were created.

So, before you accuse people of being ignorant of the text, sort out your own errors.

 

[Jinn_Ku]

First, we need to clarify.
Artybloke, by evolution, do you mean evolution within a species or evolution as in...say...slugs evolving into apes? I assumed you meant the latter, as no one with more than 12 brain cells can believe evolution within a species (such as breeding animals with certain traits to obtain puppies with like traits) happens.

Jane, my statement was in error. I thought by life you meant just animals, not plantlife. Now, you say plants cannot live without sunlight. Seems reasonable. You draw the conclusion that since there was not yet sun, life (including plants this time) could not have formed, thus the Bible is wrong.
The Bible's creation is in oppostion to your theory of creation, which states...(insert your theory here)

 

[Jack_Racz]

Sorry, but if you're going to answer non-Christians, don't post lies. Evolution is one of the most proved theories on the block.

No it's not. There is no sound proof that evolution even occurs.
Animals and people adapt, not evolve.

 

[Jack_Racz]

1. the planets couldn't take shape without the sun to revolve around. It's about gravitation, you know?

No they don't, the sun has no influence on planets creation. Planets are formed by dust and gases merging under intense pressure. The sun didn't cause any of that.

2. Life is impossible without sunlight.

Who says we can't live without light? There are amphibious creatures in caves who never see light at all. As well as some kinds of algae and insects.

I would recomend you check yourself before saying people are ignorant...

 

[Patristic]

This question applies first and foremost to Creationists who believe that the Bible is in no way allegorical and the only real factbook out there:

In the Bible, the Earth (and life!) were created BEFORE there was a sun. Well, this is, scientifically speaking, absolutely impossible, for the simple reason that

1. the planets couldn't take shape without the sun to revolve around. It's about gravitation, you know?

2. Life is impossible without sunlight. So even if we ignore the unimportant trifle that there could not be a planet earth without the sun being there first, temperatures would be somewhere near the absolute Zero, making life impossible. Some bloke once claimed that the light of distant stars was sufficient, but hey, just take a look at the Planet Neptune, will ya? Or even Mars, if you like. In order to be habitable, a planet must be close to a sun - but not too close. If it's too far away, it turns into an assembly of frozen gases. If it's too near, it becomes an incinerator for every proteine that might try to form there.

Now please don't give me the classic "God can do as he likes"-theme. Because clearly, what he did was not what is described in the Bible: First the sun, THEN the planets, THEN life. Not the other way round.

There's a simple explanation for the order things are presented in the genesis-account: Ignorance on the Hebrew's part. They thought that the sun was revolving around the earth and served no other purpose than to illuminate. They just didn't know any better.

Still, I'd like to know how you try to wriggle out of this one.

If I may I would like to recommend a book. The Genesis Question by Dr. Hugh Ross. Dr. Ross attempts to explain those very anamolies from a scientific viewpoint.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Who says we can't live without light? There are amphibious creatures in caves who never see light at all. As well as some kinds of algae and insects.

Oh MAN. Excuse me if I offend you here, but: How thick can you get? Without the sun, temperature would drop to absolute Zero in no time. It's not just the light. Life on this planet depends on the sun. No sun, no life. As easy as that.

I would recomend you check yourself before saying people are ignorant...

Okay: I checked myself. You really ARE ignorant.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

Not a debate forum. but this is a non Christian asking a question. However, original poster, I'll be watching to see if you brought this up to listen to what we have to say or simply to antagonize.

The sun was mentioned later, but in what way does "heavens and the earth" not include the cosmos and the sun in particular?

 

[thaiv]

Christians can have scientific ignorance sometimes.

Light>plants>animals

You must have light for plants to exist and you must have plants for animals to exist. Without a sun, there is no light except the faint light given off by stars. So without the sun it would be too cold for all the species that do not need light to exist. If anyone has taken physics they know that the earth revolves around the sun. If there was no sun there would be no gravity and everything would be in chaos. The earth is dependent on the sun. Just take it as it is Christian brothers and sisters! There is no need to try to reason with it because actually the Scriptures do not contradict it. To show this I will post another post later.

 

[MinDach]

According to the Genesis, night and day were created before there was a sun. The sun was just a later addition, according to the text. This alone should be sufficient proof that people back then had not the slightest clue of even the most simple phenomena of astronomy

Sorry I am really not up with all this, but have you ever looked out in to space, I think they can look real far now, have you ever seen any other sun out there, I have not hear about one being found, well how in the world do thoses stars just keep on shining, how come there are even there if they have to have a Sun to exist, there are lots of stars out there with not much sun light if any or could it be that God was the first light.


1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.


Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.


Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.


Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.


Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.


Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.


Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.


Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.


Gen 1:10 And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.


Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.


Gen 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.


Gen 1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.


Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:


Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.


Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.


Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,


Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.


Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.


Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Why do you ask me questions that would further a debate if you just pointed out that this is not the purpose of this particular forum? It's like you are daring me to break the very rules you ask me to observe.

As to why I started this thread in the first place:
I was just amazed at the sheer amount of energy that Creationists put into twisting the Genesis account backwards and forwards just to convince themselves that it is true, whereas even a layman as myself can see that the only thing you might prove when you assume that the Genesis myth is *not* allegorical is that the Hebrews did not have the slightest idea as to what the cosmos looked like and believed that the earth stood at the very center of creation, with the rest attached as supplements, like, say: The sun marking the day.

I'm really interested in your answers, and I DO consider them, seriously. Still, most of the time they are so far down the road towards christian fundamentalism and have so little to do with even the basic principles of astronomy, geology or biology, I just have no choice but to point out that your assumptions are plain wrong.
Hopefully, every schoolkid knows that the earth revolves around the sun, and that the sun is just a small one, and part of a huge galaxy called the Milky Way.
There's not even a huge amount of scientific knowledge required. Even common sense shows pretty clearly that there's no way to apply the Genesis to real life without it being allegorical.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Sorry I am really not up with all this, but have you ever looked out in to space, I think they can look real far now, have you ever seen any other sun out there, I have not hear about one being found, well how in the world do thoses stars just keep on shining, how come there are even there if they have to have a Sun to exist, there are lots of stars out there with not much sun light if any or could it be that God was the first light.

Ummmm... I'm sorry to destroy your illusions, MinDach. Really awfully sorry. But... the stars ARE suns, many of them much, much bigger than our own sun. Don't they even teach you the most basic principles in school these days? I really don't know if I should laugh or cry at this... I really don't. It really shocks me that you don't know that the stars are suns.

Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
Gen 1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
Gen 1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
Gen 1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Right: There it is. Right on the spot. The sun is created on the fourth day, along with the stars and the moon. And completely anthropocentric, of course.

 

[Mr.Cheese]

I do admit that extreme funtamentalist interpretation has a tendency to overlook things. Oddly enough, topics like this seem to be highly polarized from one extreme view to the other.
I'll keep this here, just everyone be nice to each other is all I ask.

Please realize that if you can't swallow one interpretation of Genesis, it doesn't mean that there isn't another legitimate way to see it without falling into questionable waters.
This is important for everyone.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Of course. I don't reject the idea of Creation as such, and believe that God created this universe and everything in it. Furthermore, the Genesis provides an in-depth look into our distant forefather's perception of God and Creation. There's a deeper truth beyond the mere scientific reach within this account.

You *do* know that "Adam" means "Man", and is related to the Hebrew term "Adamah", which is the earth? Or that "Eve" means "Life-giving"?

 

[Jack_Racz]

Oh MAN. Excuse me if I offend you here, but: How thick can you get? Without the sun, temperature would drop to absolute Zero in no time. It's not just the light. Life on this planet depends on the sun. No sun, no life. As easy as that.

Absolute zero??? That is not possible to achieve. Absolute zero means nothings moves, everything is frozen... even if the sun wasn't there particles would still move.

Life does not depend on light. Creatures at the bottom of the ocean never even see any light, but they still live...

And light doesn't necessarily mean heat...