• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

The Bible?

sleepingdog

Newbie
Dec 17, 2011
195
5
✟342.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Can the Bible be trusted?

By that I mean,it was translated by men,composed by men;non-canonical books,could they be used in a sermon from a pulpit?
Are we to say the Bible is complete,Genesis to Revelation?
Can non-canonical books be used in sermons and relied upon?
The OT and the NT?
For example,The Book of Jasher is referred to in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18.

A better way to ask this question is,can non-canonical books be preached from a pulpit,or be counted as the word of God,or should we ONLY rely on the Bible,Genesis to Revelations?
 
Last edited:

ChristianT

Newbie Orthodox
Nov 4, 2011
2,059
89
Somewhere in God's Creation.
✟25,331.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Can the Bible be trusted?

By that I mean,it was translated by men,composed by men;non-canonical books,could they be used in a sermon from a pulpit?
Are we to say the Bible is complete,Genesis to Revelation?
Can non-canonical books be used in sermons and relied upon?
The OT and the NT?
For example,The Book of Jasher is referred to in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18.

A better way to ask this question is,can non-canonical books be preached from a pulpit,or be counted as the word of God,or should we ONLY rely on the Bible,Genesis to Revelations?

many may have their opinion, be as for me, I think that we should be allowed to use anything to get a point to the people. Especially to get the message of G*d to a flock, a shepherd usually refers to some sort of extra-biblical source. Such a source may be, but not limited to:

*nature; the universe
*Christian books
*secular stats (scientific facts, NASA findings, laws of nature)
*G*d Himself

My pastor has used the Bible for the most part, but he also refers to nature and scientific facts. As for the fourth source, that is for the receiver. The shepherd should just make it so that the receiver may be open to G*d's leading and teachings.

However, as far as secular stats as being considered the "Word of God," I don't think so. I think they just endorse and prove His word. Ultimately, Jesus is referred in John as The Word of God, because He fulfilled all the requirements of law and some prophecies. The early apostles didn't have the Bible, but they had the Torah (OT equiv.) and their experiences with Jesus, so they had an "interactive" Bible :D But I don't think a sermon should be "limited" to the Bible, even though it sure is sufficient for an excellent one.

I'd love to see what others have to say.
 
Upvote 0

Unix

Hebr incl Sirach&epigraph, Hermeneut,Ptolemy,Samar
Site Supporter
Nov 29, 2003
2,568
84
44
ECC,Torah:ModeCommenta,OTL,AY BC&RL,Seow a ICC Job
Visit site
✟184,217.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Single
If it's a Yes/No question, then yes. I read the OP half an hour after it was posted, and have been typing this post since, so this took me exactly 4 hours.
It doesn't have technical errors or changes of content. It's the Bible translators that do most of the errors, and many who read the Bible would need more aids. The Bible is a book of facts and simply a bit more complex than Your average book. That doesn't mean it's impossible to read or anything like that.
I'll develop my point so that You can see what I mean.
For example ESV should not be used for preaching, among other reasons because of:
Proof that the ESV, NIV, NASB are "Catholic bibles" - Page 12 - Christian Forums
Mt was written early, before almost any other books of the NT, only books such as James and Galatians were earlier:
In-depth study - Page 2 - Christian Forums
In-depth study - Page 3 - Christian Forums
2 Peter is not a forgery.[...] all I'm saying is that the apostles testified to 2 Peter.
So God has designed a reason for the association! The process how the Bible came to be, is divine, and clearly referenced:
The Bible is not invented by humans, it's divine.
Can the Bible be trusted?
We have historical record that ANY other writings than those of Paul, had to be written by an apostle of the Messiah (i.e. those which are recorded in the Gospels to have believed in Jesus) :bow:, it's this:
"Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:18)." Source
Gal 1:18-19 (1970 NEB second edition) Three years later I did go upp to Jerusalem to get to know Cephas. I stayed with him for a forthnight, without seeing any other of the apostles, except* James the Lord's brother.
Gal 1:20 (combined from JB (just, literal truth) and 1971 GNB 3rd edition): What I just wrote is the literal truth. I am not lying, so help me God!

* Or but only

Since we have been able to later on proove that some books in the Pauline corpus were not written by Paul, eg. the Pastorals and 2 Thess, those are ruled out from the Canon. The same principle rules out 2-3 Jn and Revelation.

Galatians was written in a haste, and is therefore not to be used theologically other than for containing the historical record of establishment of the Canon of Scripture.
By that I mean,it was translated by men,composed by men;
That experience revived and strenghtened the apostle John's memory, so that he
We can use also 2 Esdras (f.e. 7:45-48 (1989 REB): I replied: 'My lord, repeat what I said before: "How blest are the living who obey your decrees!" But as for those for whom I have been praying, has there ever lived a man who has not sinned, who has never transgressed your covenant? I see now that only to the few will the next world bring joy, while to the many it will bring torment. For an evil heart has grown strong in us; it has estranged us from God's decrees, brought us into corruption and the paths of deats, opened up to us the way of ruin, and carried us far away from life. This it has done, not merely to a few, but to almost alla who have been created.') + 2 Esdras correctly tells how many continents there are in the world, really long before it was humanly possible to know, so that's another proof it's divine.
And we can use the epistle of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians:
Well, do You regard Peter highly enough? To include Acts is ridiculous - we don't even know who wrote, it's not apostolic - that is clear from the recemblance to Greek tales, rather the epistle written by Clement of Rome should be included:
Should Christians,use non-canonical books? - Christian Forums
... post #1 and #2
An excerpt from a reference book (I don't know the title, but it's a major reference work mid-thick book) about popes explains post #2: p17: "Clement I (c. 91-c. 101). There is a tradition that he was ordained by St Peter and acted as a kind of auxiliary bishop to Linus and Anacletus. [...]Clements personal prestige in the early Church[...]."
From 2005 Christianity, the Complete Guide, editor John Bowden, Continuum: p.888 "A letter bearing his name deals with disputes in the church of Corinth. This is the first instance of the church of Rome intervening in the affairs of another church." /Maurice Wiles, Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus, University of Oxford p.246: "Clement and Ignatius are the two figures who have elicited the most interest and exercised the greatest influence in the course of the church's history. Clement's name appears as second or third bishop of Rome after Peter in later succession lists. That he was a leader in the church of Rome at the end of first century is not in doubt. Whether there was at that time a 'bishop' of Rome, as the office was later understood, is open to question, and Clement is probably better seen as simply the senior presbyter. His letter is a suistained argument for an ordered ministry as standing in a tradition of apostolic appointment. [...] /John Nilson, Associate Professor of Theology, Loyola University Chicago, IL
The most important things to preach, ... are:
* Messianic profesies, such as ... Is 7:14 (JB): The Lord himself, therefore, will give a sign. It is this: the maiden is with child and will soon give birth to a son whom she will call Immanuel. ... And 2 Esdras 7:28a, 29a: My son the Messiah will appear with his companions. ... At the end of that time my son the Messiah will die, (Interpretation of 7:28b: 400 years actually means 4 years!)
* ... and the Resurrection, have a look at:
New Research from E.N.E.A. on the Shroud of Turin - Christian Forums
and: New Research from E.N.E.A. on the Shroud of Turin - Christian Forums
Many have fallen off faith after the carbon dating in 1988. Well, this picture from an 1191 Hungarian pray manuscript, depicts the shroud, the L-shaped burn-holes drawn in the pray manuscript match the older burn-holes of the Shroud. That gives us two conclusions: the shroud was in danger to burn TWICE and the adds to all the other proof for that the carbon dating in 1988 wasn't correct.
1191.jpg

...drawn in the lower right quarter of this image. The pattern depicts a weave identical to the weave of the Shroud.
Still more people think the shroud of Turin is a painting, often they refer to Walter McCrone's investigations, read however my post in another thread:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7599948-post59559879/#post59559879

The side-strip of the burrial shroud was used to secure the body inside the shroud, according to John Jackson, STURP.
side-strip.jpg

What happened in the tomb early sunday morning? Mary goes to the tomb. She sees the body gone. She runs to Peter and John and says that someone must have stolen the body. Peter and John run to the tomb. John arrives first. Why do they suddenly give a different testimony than Mary?
The explanation should be the strip:
johnarrives.jpg

Strips of linen still bound outside the cloth - something extraordinary must have happened.
picksup.jpg


How many Deuterocanonicals we get, depends on which Bible version we choose, read this entire review, I agree with it: Amazon.com: Fr. Robert F. Lyons "Priest / Sci-Fi Buff"'s review of Revised English Bible With Apocrypha (Bibl...
Not all the Deuterocanonicals should be preached or relied upon. From the ones that the Catholic Church uses (1970 NAB/2010 NAB-RE selection): Tobit, Sirach
I want to mention that books such as 1 Samuel, Jeremiah, Wisdom, Galatians, and Acts are harmful for building a theology!
Different theology: if you build a theology on (one way of reading) Romans and Galatians you have trouble fitting Colossians and Ephesians into that. But if you start with Colossians and Ephesians then that problem vanishes. This suggests the problem is in the way Romans and Galatians have been read, not inconstancies between the epistles.
Mt 11:27 should definately not be preached anywhere. I have a really solid commentary on it: Hermeneia-series Matthew 8-20, by Ulrich Luz, a 600-page volume, and it tells us that Mt 11:27 was added by the church. I'll get back to this after the weekend, I'm in the very middle of scanning in those pages from that book, and I'll post that here as images.
On page 164:
[URL="http://cykeltaxi.se/155.jpg"]p. 155
p. 156
p. 157
p. 158
p. 159
p. 164
p. 165

There are misunderstandings of what Paul wrote about Faith and works
non-canonical books,could they be used in a sermon from a pulpit?
Are we to say the Bible is complete,Genesis to Revelation?
Can non-canonical books be used in sermons and relied upon?

:)How I determine which Bible version to use
Most books of the NT and about half of the books of the OT (by that I mean including the deuterocanonicals).
Here's a list for the whole Bible, which books IMO should not be preached:
Best Catholic Books? - Page 2 - Christian Forums
The OT and the NT?

I don't read Joshua nor 2 Samuel, so that's not a problem.
For example,The Book of Jasher is referred to in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18.
Previously edited by Unix; 8th January 2012 at 10:15 AM. Reason: add about Resurrection, I was to put that there in the first place but it slipped my mind
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
sleepingdog said:
Can the Bible be trusted?

By that I mean,it was translated by men,composed by men;non-canonical books,could they be used in a sermon from a pulpit?
I don't think they can be used in the same way - that, essentially, is what the canon is all about - which books are scripture for the purposes of worship. But one might refer to any text in a more generalized way.


Are we to say the Bible is complete,Genesis to Revelation?
Can non-canonical books be used in sermons and relied upon?
The OT and the NT?[


For example,The Book of Jasher is referred to in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18.
yes, but a) that doesnt make it scripture and b) it no longer exists.

The book by that name floating around is a more recent fabrication.
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
Unix said:
If it's a Yes/No question, then yes. I read the OP half an hour after it was posted, and have been typing this post since, so this took me exactly 4 hours.

I'll develop my point so that You can see what I mean.
For example ESV should not be used for preaching, among other reasons because of:
Proof that the ESV, NIV, NASB are "Catholic bibles" - Page 12 - Christian Forums
Mt was written early, before almost any other books of the NT, only books such as James and Galatians were earlier:
In-depth study - Page 2 - Christian Forums
In-depth study - Page 3 - Christian Forums

We can use also 2 Esdras (f.e. 7:45 (1989 REB): I replied: 'My lord, repeat what I said before: "How blest are the living who obey your decrees!" But as for those for whom I have been praying, has there ever lived a man who has not sinned, who has never transgressed your covenant? I see now that only to the few will the next world bring joy, while to the many it will bring torment. For an evil heart has grown strong in us; it has estranged us from God's decrees, brought us into corruption and the paths of deats, opened up to us the way of ruin, and carried us far away from life. This it has done, not merely to a few, but to almost alla who have been created.') + 2 Esdras correctly tells how many continents there are in the world, really long before it was humanly possible to know, so that's another proof it's divine.
And we can use the epistle of Clement of Rome to the Corinthians:

The most important things to preach, ... are:
* Messianic profesies, such as ... Is 7:14 (JB): The Lord himself, therefore, will give a sign. It is this: the maiden is with child and will soon give birth to a son whom she will call Immanuel. ... And 2 Esdras 7:28a, 29a: My son the Messiah will appear with his companions. ... At the end of that time my son the Messiah will die, (Interpretation of 7:28b: 400 years actually means 4 years!)
* ... and the Resurrection, have a look at:
New Research from E.N.E.A. on the Shroud of Turin - Christian Forums
and: New Research from E.N.E.A. on the Shroud of Turin - Christian Forums

How many Deuterocanonicals we get, depends on which Bible version we choose, read this entire review, I agree with it: Amazon.com: Fr. Robert F. Lyons "Priest / Sci-Fi Buff"'s review of Revised English Bible With Apocrypha (Bibl...
Not all the Deuterocanonicals should be preached or relied upon. From the ones that the Catholic Church uses (1970 NAB/2010 NAB-RE selection): Tobit, Sirach
I want to mention that books such as 1 Samuel, Jeremiah, Wisdom, Galatians, and Acts are harmful for building a theology!
Mt 11:27 should definately not be preached anywhere. I have a really solid commentary on it: Hermeneia-series Matthew 8-20, by Ulrich Luz, a 600-page volume, and it tells us that Mt 11:27 was added by the church. I'll get back to this after the weekend, I'm in the very middle of scanning in those pages from that book, and I'll post that here as images.
[url=http://www.christianforums.com/t7612977-post59174466/#post59174466]There are misunderstandings of what Paul wrote about Faith and works


:)How I determine which Bible version to use
Most books of the NT and about half of the books of the OT (by that I mean including the deuterocanonicals).
Here's a list for the whole Bible, which books IMO should not be preached:
Best Catholic Books? - Page 2 - Christian Forums

I don't read Joshua nor 2 Samuel, so that's not a problem.

Please do not quote me to support a point completely at odds to anything I have said or hold to.

You want to limit your yourself to part of the canon so as not to upset your theology that's up to you, but don't give the impression I agree with you.
 
Upvote 0

sleepingdog

Newbie
Dec 17, 2011
195
5
✟342.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
I don't think they can be used in the same way - that, essentially, is what the canon is all about - which books are scripture for the purposes of worship. But one might refer to any text in a more generalized way.



yes, but a) that doesnt make it scripture and b) it no longer exists.

The book by that name floating around is a more recent fabrication.

The Book of Jasher - Book of Jasher

Are you saying this is a fabrication?
Is there proof?
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
sleepingdog said:
The Book of Jasher - Book of Jasher

Are you saying this is a fabrication?
Is there proof?

Yep. Why on earth would you assume something like that was genuine without doing research?
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
sleepingdog said:
It's referred to in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18.

If that is a fabrication,who's to say that some parts of the Bible are not a fabrication of some sort?

A book called Jasher is mentioned there. That book was lost millennia ago, like the vast majority of ancient texts cThis is not it - it's a fabrication.

If I stick a BMW label on a Proton that doesn't make it a BMW. Buyer beware.

There are, in fact, several fabrications bearing the name. The one you are looking at is a sixteenth century Jewish midrash.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

sleepingdog

Newbie
Dec 17, 2011
195
5
✟342.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
A book called Jasher is mentioned there. That book was lost millennia ago, like the vast majority of ancient texts cThis is not it - it's a fabrication.

If I stick a BMW label on a Proton that doesn't make it a BMW. Buyer beware.

So we shouldn't put our trust in non-canonical books?
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
sleepingdog said:
So we shouldn't put our trust in non-canonical books?

Depends on what sort of trust and what sort of book we are talking about.

I wouldn't trust a late medieval midrash purporting to be the book referenced in Samuel seriously at all for anything much. I would use, say, a deuterocanonical book with care, or a good work of Christian scholarship in a way appropriate to what it is.
 
Upvote 0

sleepingdog

Newbie
Dec 17, 2011
195
5
✟342.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Depends on what sort of trust and what sort of book we are talking about.

I wouldn't trust a late medieval midrash purporting to be the book referenced in Samuel seriously at all for anything much. I would use, say, a deuterocanonical book with care, or a good work of Christian scholarship in a way appropriate to what it is.

But what about books like the ''Book of Enoch''
...The Apocrypha,is anything wrong with that? i.e Tobit,Esdras etc etc
 
Upvote 0

ebia

Senior Contributor
Jul 6, 2004
41,711
2,142
A very long way away. Sometimes even further.
✟54,775.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Politics
AU-Greens
sleepingdog said:
But what about books like the ''Book of Enoch''
What about it. If one wants to study some of the ideas floating around in late 2nd temple Jewish thought it may be relevant data. I really don't get this fad of dredging up second rate obscure books and wanting to treat them like scripture.

...The Apocrypha,is anything wrong with that? i.e Tobit,Esdras etc etc
the deuterocanonical books are rather different. They exist on the fuzzy edges of canonicity. I would go with what the Anglican 39 articles say - useful for edification and instruction but one shouldn't build doctrine on them.
 
Upvote 0

OldStudent

Junior Member
Feb 24, 2007
434
21
central Ohio
✟23,188.00
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Can the Bible be trusted?

By that I mean,it was translated by men,composed by men;non-canonical books,could they be used in a sermon from a pulpit?
Are we to say the Bible is complete,Genesis to Revelation?
Can non-canonical books be used in sermons and relied upon?
The OT and the NT?
For example,The Book of Jasher is referred to in Joshua 10:13 and 2 Samuel 1:18.

A better way to ask this question is,can non-canonical books be preached from a pulpit,or be counted as the word of God,or should we ONLY rely on the Bible,Genesis to Revelations?


The Bible is the complete reference work for anything required for salvation. In the course of study themes are discovered and collated into secondary works - writings or oral presentations. Any conclusions of any line of study must be defensible by or at least not cross the teaching of Scripture. Think "origins by evolution" and see what collisions or corroborations occur.

Paul said, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." 2 Tim 3:16. Peter notes: "holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit" 2 Peter 1:21. The scriptures of these men did not include the NT. In due time God led the inclusion of trust worthy writings that became the NT.

It is important to bear in mind the Bible is not a book - it is a library of writings now in a common binding. If you have done high school or college research papers you were expected to draw from multiple sources for a reason - it broadens available information and reduces bias. The Bible needs to be approached and used as a library and researched in the manner of a term paper.

Except for the Ten Commandments the scriptures were written by the hands of men. But think in terms of "ghost writers." "The story of... as told to..." The writers were not writing on their own; they were under the influence of the presence of God Himself as He made impressions on their hearts and they presented those impressions in human language. Again use of multiple sources in the refinement of God's teaching is very valuable.

You raise the issue of translation. That is a good one and bears careful assessment on your part. There are very few translations today worthy to hang your soul on. A broader selection may be used for supplemental work but not for fundamental study.

Is the Bible the ONLY source of knowledge? No. The Holy Spirit lead the writers; He also needs to lead you so you don't wrest (warp) their work. "“ Whom will he teach knowledge? And whom will he make to understand the message? Those just weaned from milk? Those just drawn from the breasts? For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little” Isaiah 28:9,10. Because we can hold the "Word of God" in one hand, which the men of old couldn't we have more complete access to it than they did so we have the possibility of discovering things they couldn't - if we mine the whole work.

God is love. One manifestation of that love is that, besides our personal study, He expects us to work it out with other minds as we live, love, share among others. Wonderful, even otherwise inexpressable ideas will be discovered.

Can the Bible be trusted. How would you evaluate that? One useful approach is to consider what archeology has uncovered. Look at the Bibles effects on people - check some biographies. See the effects of its rightful and wrongful use by nations and churches. Examine the value of its body of civil and moral law. Examine the value of some of those "Levitical" laws involving lifestyle, cleanliness, diet.

As for use of the "non-canonical" books. I have found some wonderful perspectives and summary statements from C.S. Lewis that I have used in public. As for those disputed books that some include or exclude from the library of Scripture - I admit to not having given them much investigation for myself.

I enter the next possible aspect of what composes God's word with considerable uneasiness. Among the listed gifts God has given His church are: apostles, pastors, teachers, AND prophets. That last one often raises a lot of fire. But I have to ask - When was God muzzled? If someone lays claim to the gift of prophet don't be too hasty to write him/her off. Comparing their teaching with Scripture and watching the results of their work will confirm or unravel their claim. Would there work be added to that formal library of the Bible? - not likely. Can it be held trustworthy? If it sustains God's endorsement - of course.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

x141

...
Sep 25, 2011
5,138
466
Where you are ...
Visit site
✟40,111.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There is a covering cast over all the nations, it remains there for the jews, Paul had said, but John's Revelation has the seventh Church in need as well "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. When the pharisees said that they could see the covering remained, sin remained.

Even when we read the scripture, study, feel we have a handle on things, let alone things outside of what main stream christianity holds sacred , we do not. If we go back and find the unclean thing in which all that is unclean sprung from then God willing we will see that knowledge makes us blind, poor and naked.

The duality in scripture is from this covering. To one something that appears as light to other it appears as darkness. Good, evil, blessing, cursing, lesser, greater. Paul said what looked like life became death. Adam is this covering, the law of her husband that Jesus came to loose us from. We are both Son and Bride, we are both three yet one. Jesus even said that He was the I Am yet He said His Father was greater than Him. Automaticly we begin to measure and this covering causes us to come up short. God asked Adam Where has knowledge brought you. The answer is, It carries us away to Babylon, a place of confusion, a place where we open up our feet to everyone that passes by.

All things testify of Him, created by Him and for Him, He is before all things and by Him all things consist. To top it off Paul said, We live and move and have our being in Him and this he said to those who didn't know Him. How much more of Truth can we not percieve simply because we say I see.
 
Upvote 0