The Bible vs. Science

[Zeena]

How do you reconcile findings like this with the "black and white" of the bible, that conflicts with such evidence?

Matthew 19:12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

 

[cantata]

Matthew 19:12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Intersexed people are not eunuchs. They are intersexed.

 

[Verv]

Recently I saw a story about this woman, who is a woman with male DNA, a vagina that is not connected to a uterus, and undecended testicles.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/MedicalMysteries/Story?id=5465752&page=2

Because there are intersex children born (it's a boy! and a girl!), it contradicts the quote of "Male and Female He made them", unless you take it literally. It is more common than I thought:
http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

How do you reconcile findings like this with the "black and white" of the bible, that conflicts with such evidence? How does that change your view of how to read the bible?

Because the person still has a gender; though it is a gender which can be debated. Scientifically, it is a male. And perhaps in God's eyes it is a male. Perhaps a female. I really do not know.

However, there is still a gender. It is not genderless as science has determined it as a male through DNA though it has some properties of a female.

I guess this would be similar to the parts in the Bible when they speak of good and evil, of sheep and goats, and though we do not know who is who and what is what necessarily it does not negate the fact that there is a right answer to the question.

 

[cantata]

Because the person still has a gender; though it is a gender which can be debated. Scientifically, it is a male. And perhaps in God's eyes it is a male. Perhaps a female. I really do not know.

The person has a gender, yes - an intersexed gender. She feels that she is a woman, so whatever you have to say about what she is "scientifically" (and by the way, I'm not sure how you draw the conclusion that she's "scientifically" male), she's female. And perhaps God is nice enough to recognise that she is the gender she feels that she is, and that gender is not a matter of black and white.

 

[LittleNipper]

Nipper, I hope you've never masturbated before (assuming youre a dude). Thats literally millions of little babies you just murdered right there. These innocent little dudes.

Your response to a question with a question is just vague and stupid. WHy not just say what you mean instead of being all...

vague and stupid.

I might be wrong; however, I believe given the question and the tone of the questioner, I feel that my response was rather right on target. Perhaps you don't appreciate the implications. Sorry, but spilt sperm is not much different than a lady's lost egg during a menstrual cycle. It isn't human.

 

[HannahBanana]

Because the person still has a gender; though it is a gender which can be debated. Scientifically, it is a male. And perhaps in God's eyes it is a male. Perhaps a female. I really do not know.

However, there is still a gender. It is not genderless as science has determined it as a male through DNA though it has some properties of a female.

I guess this would be similar to the parts in the Bible when they speak of good and evil, of sheep and goats, and though we do not know who is who and what is what necessarily it does not negate the fact that there is a right answer to the question.

So what gender are intersexed people supposed to be, then, since they have physical properties of both genders?

 

[LittleNipper]

Why does God allow some embryos/fetuses to be miscarried, if He hates the idea of them not surviving until birth so much?

What GOD does and what GOD allows are two entirely different things. GOD does know that there are repocussions when humans take matters into their own hands. Only GOD fully understands the eternal reprocussions.

 

[LittleNipper]

u honestly think the entire UNIVERSE's problems stem from a myth about Adam and Eve, which in all honesty, was a totally different story borrowing aspects of other Babylonian, Mesopotamian, Sumerian and Pheonician legends?

this is what the debate is about; science vs DOGMA, which is what you endorse.

Step back, look at all the evidence, and then decide. Don't decide based upon what you think "god thinks". Use sound, objective reasoning without the bias of religion/dogma, and you'll figure the answer out. Otherwise you'll simply be drawing to ill-fated conclusions dooming you into darkness and ignorance.

I honestly believe that Adam and Eve were a reality as is the LORD JESUS CHRIST. The question might be asked, who borrowed from whom? REAL Science is an attempt to discover the truth by researching known truths. The problem comes when men read fiction into truth to shun GOD and HIS revelation. Everyone has a bias. To some it is that GOD cannot exist or that if GOD does exist HE is unimportant to any equasion. You have to choose the side you will be on.

 

[LittleNipper]

The world isn't perfect, because not everything unfortunate in our world is mans fault.

I might suggest that what is his fault is fault enough to hang anyone.

 

[HannahBanana]

What GOD does and what GOD allows are two entirely different things. GOD does know that there are repocussions when humans take matters into their own hands. Only GOD fully understands the eternal reprocussions.

You didn't answer my question. Please do so now, and refrain from dancing around the question again.

 

[Zeena]

Intersexed people are not eunuchs. They are intersexed.

I'm not saying it's the original design, but it's the due penalty of sin that men [mankind] are sometimes born that way.

http://www.xyxo.org/isgi/apologetic.html

John 9:1-3
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

I believe the above Scripture is relevant in that some men are born that way.

Also, for Christians who may have been born this way;

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[HannahBanana]

I'm not saying it's the original design, but it's the due penalty of sin that men [mankind] are sometimes born that way.

http://www.xyxo.org/isgi/apologetic.html

John 9:1-3
And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

I believe the above Scripture is relevant in that some men are born that way.

Also, for Christians who may have been born this way;

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

What about the piece of scripture that says that God made us male and female? How does that fit in with the fact that intersexed people exist?

 

[LittleNipper]

You didn't answer my question. Please do so now, and refrain from dancing around the question again.[/quotIe]

I did. GOD sees the ENTIRE PICTURE --- ETERNITY to ETERNITY. Man only sees part of a part of a snapshot of moments in time. You are not GOD and therefore have no right to choose an abortion for yourself or another simply because it appears to be a convenience to you or them. GOD may allow it to happen, but only because it may ultimately fit HIS way of dealing with the perpetrator of such a deed at some future date. Miscarriages happen because there may have been something terribly wrong with a baby that GOD decided was not where HE would have that soul be and HE allows nature (imperfect as it now is) to run it's course.

 

[Zeena]

What about the piece of scripture that says that God made us male and female? How does that fit in with the fact that intersexed people exist?

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Did you read the appologetic at xyxo.org?

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]"What is Man?" Psalm 8:4-6. Hebrews 2:5-8.[/FONT]​

THAT NOCTURNAL MEDITATION and contemplation of the Psalmist, which led him to ask this question and to answer it by placing man at the centre of the universe, has bounded all the ages, gone back to the eternal counsels of the Godhead before the world was, and passed on to the consummation of those counsels in the inhabited earth to come, and beyond it. It is a question as to the Divinely conceived destiny of a specific creation called Man. Those thoughts had phases: "For a little while lower than the angels"; crowned "with glory and honour"; "to have dominion over the works of thy hands". The question of the Psalmist is taken up and enlarged upon by an inspired Apostle . "Not unto angels did he subject the inhabited earth to come ". " Thou didst put all things in subjection under his feet". But between the Divine conception and its ultimate realization there is all the tragedy of human disruption, and all the glory of Divine grace in redemption. What is before us here is to say something of the nature of that disruption as to man's own being, and therefore to see what conformity to the image of God's Son means as to the overcoming of that disrupted state. It is the question of man's own person, and what kind of person can alone inherit the kingdom of God. For such a high and glorious destiny not only a spiritual or moral state is required, but a certain type or species of being. As the crawling caterpillar or silkworm has to spin its shroud and yield that form of life in order to awaken in a new order, break through into a new world as a beautiful moth or butterfly, so has man now to pass out of one order and be constituted anew with faculties and capacities for a higher. Man, according to God's mind, and according to a dim and intangible sense in himself, is of a universal character, with universal interests. But something has happened which, on the one hand, makes the realization of God's intentions impossible in man as he now is, and on the other hand, causes man to persist in a vain effort to achieve such realization. This terrible contradiction of things at the centre of the universe is the occasion of a new intervention on the part of God in the person of His Son. This intervention has several features. It shows what a man is according to God's mind; it secures the removal of the man that is not so according to God; it brings in the powers and constituents of a new creation; and it reveals and secures what man will be when he reaches the mature form which was ever in God's mind as the end and not the mere creation state of even unfallen man. As we see it, this all hangs upon the setting right of derangement in the nature of man whereby his living and full relationship with God is renewed. This, in the main relates to one part of his being called the pneuma or spirit, and it is here that we therefore need to have enlightenment.​

http://www.biblicalpsychology.net/What_is_Man.pdf​

 

[HannahBanana]

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Did you read the appologetic at xyxo.org?



http://www.biblicalpsychology.net/What_is_Man.pdf[/LEFT]

The whole "new creature in Christ" thing refers to being born-again as a Christian. So what about all of the non-Christian intersexed people out there?

 

[Verv]

"Intersexed" is a term that we use when we are confused by a situation, I venture to say... I really do not think God is confused on the issue and rather He knows them as men or as women; and the opinions of us really do not matter.

Though these people have properties of both they are truly one or the other and not both. However, this is something we cannot be faulted on for not knowing and not venturing a guess. It really is just a personal matter and of course medically we are obligated to ameliorate the situation as much as we can.

I'd venture to say if someone were born with a vagina yet were technically male genetically and what have you, it is like being born with infertility as a female. One can be infertile for any number of reasons and the medical details should not necessarily cloud the whole debate.

I do not want to go forth and really try to make a huge guess in either way what is or isn't because I am not qualified, really, but I am certain that there is intent here.

There are people with hormonal imbalances that also give people traits of the opposite gender, some people are very androgenous (sp, i know). But still, a gender is not forfeited.

I mean really, at the end of it all we just have to not beat the horse to death with overanalysis and because we are confused about the gender does not mean that God is confused.

 

[Zeena]

The person has a gender, yes - an intersexed gender. She feels that she is a woman, so whatever you have to say about what she is "scientifically" (and by the way, I'm not sure how you draw the conclusion that she's "scientifically" male), she's female. And perhaps God is nice enough to recognise that she is the gender she feels that she is, and that gender is not a matter of black and white.

In order to admit such an admission, you'd HAVE to admit a person has a soul, separated off from the body. For the feelings of such a one are, in fact, not representative of the facts of his gender.

If you are willing, we have a spirit as well..

http://www.biblicalpsychology.net/html/spirit_soul_and_body.html

 

[Zeena]

The whole "new creature in Christ" thing refers to being born-again as a Christian. So what about all of the non-Christian intersexed people out there?

1 John 5:19 ASV
We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one.

2 Corinthians 4:3-5
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish: in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake.

 

[TeddyKGB]

"Intersexed" is a term that we use when we are confused by a situation, I venture to say... I really do not think God is confused on the issue and rather He knows them as men or as women; and the opinions of us really do not matter.

Though these people have properties of both they are truly one or the other and not both. However, this is something we cannot be faulted on for not knowing and not venturing a guess. It really is just a personal matter and of course medically we are obligated to ameliorate the situation as much as we can.

I'd venture to say if someone were born with a vagina yet were technically male genetically and what have you, it is like being born with infertility as a female. One can be infertile for any number of reasons and the medical details should not necessarily cloud the whole debate.

I do not want to go forth and really try to make a huge guess in either way what is or isn't because I am not qualified, really, but I am certain that there is intent here.

There are people with hormonal imbalances that also give people traits of the opposite gender, some people are very androgenous (sp, i know). But still, a gender is not forfeited.

I mean really, at the end of it all we just have to not beat the horse to death with overanalysis and because we are confused about the gender does not mean that God is confused.

This does not cast God in the best light. In fact, it makes him look like something of an amoral dungeon master, playing with appearances and identities for the sake of whimsy.

 

[Zeena]

This does not cast God in the best light. In fact, it makes him look like something of an amoral dungeon master, playing with appearances and identities for the sake of whimsy.

Actually, it's man who does that.

God alone holds the true identity, that of Christ.