The best & worst of Religion (video)

[Unofficial Reverand Alex]

In this video, the wonderful speaker Bishop Barron discusses the story of Elijah, with various aspects from his life, and discusses it in the context of religion as a whole. In particular, Barron discusses the famous event of Elijah challenging the worshipers of Baal to a divine showdown: Which god will send a fire from heaven?

I believe anyone of any religion can connect with what Bishop Barron discusses, and I would appreciate from input from people of any religion.

Here is a good amount of the story that Bishop Barron is referencing, from 1 Kings 18 and 19:

"Elijah approached all the people and said, “How long will you straddle the issue? If the Lord is God, follow him; if Baal, follow him.” But the people did not answer him. So Elijah said to the people, “I am the only remaining prophet of the Lord, and there are four hundred and fifty prophets of Baal. Give us two young bulls. Let them choose one, cut it into pieces, and place it on the wood, but start no fire. I shall prepare the other and place it on the wood, but shall start no fire. You shall call upon the name of your gods, and I will call upon the name of the Lord. The God who answers with fire is God.” All the people answered, “We agree!”

Elijah then said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one young bull and prepare it first, for there are more of you. Call upon your gods, but do not start the fire.” Taking the young bull that was turned over to them, they prepared it and called upon Baal from morning to noon, saying, “Baal, answer us!” But there was no sound, and no one answering. And they hopped around the altar they had prepared. When it was noon, Elijah taunted them: “Call louder, for he is a god; he may be busy doing his business, or may be on a journey. Perhaps he is asleep and must be awakened.” They called out louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears according to their ritual until blood gushed over them. Noon passed and they remained in a prophetic state until the time for offering sacrifice. But there was no sound, no one answering, no one listening.

Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” When they drew near to him, he repaired the altar of the Lord which had been destroyed. He took twelve stones, for the number of tribes of the sons of Jacob, to whom the Lord had said: Israel shall be your name. He built the stones into an altar to the name of the Lord, and made a trench around the altar large enough for two measures of grain. When he had arranged the wood, he cut up the young bull and laid it on the wood. He said, “Fill four jars with water and pour it over the burnt offering and over the wood.” “Do it again,” he said, and they did it again. “Do it a third time,” he said, and they did it a third time. The water flowed around the altar; even the trench was filled with the water. At the time for offering sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came forward and said, “Lord, God of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, let it be known this day that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. Answer me, Lord! Answer me, that this people may know that you, Lord, are God and that you have turned their hearts back to you.” The Lord’s fire came down and devoured the burnt offering, wood, stones, and dust, and lapped up the water in the trench. Seeing this, all the people fell prostrate and said, “The Lord is God! The Lord is God!” Then Elijah said to them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Let none of them escape!” They seized them, and Elijah brought them down to the Wadi Kishon and there he slaughtered them.
...
Ahab told Jezebel all that Elijah had done—that he had murdered all the prophets by the sword. Jezebel then sent a messenger to Elijah and said, “May the gods do thus to me and more, if by this time tomorrow I have not done with your life what was done to each of them.” Elijah was afraid and fled for his life, going to Beer-sheba of Judah. He left his servant there and went a day’s journey into the wilderness, until he came to a solitary broom tree and sat beneath it. He prayed for death: “Enough, Lord! Take my life, for I am no better than my ancestors.” He lay down and fell asleep under the solitary broom tree, but suddenly a messenger touched him and said, “Get up and eat!” He looked and there at his head was a hearth cake and a jug of water. After he ate and drank, he lay down again, but the angel of the Lord came back a second time, touched him, and said, “Get up and eat or the journey will be too much for you!” He got up, ate, and drank; then strengthened by that food, he walked forty days and forty nights to the mountain of God, Horeb.

There he came to a cave, where he took shelter. But the word of the Lord came to him: Why are you here, Elijah? He answered: “I have been most zealous for the Lord, the God of hosts, but the Israelites have forsaken your covenant. They have destroyed your altars and murdered your prophets by the sword. I alone remain, and they seek to take my life.” Then the Lord said: Go out and stand on the mountain before the Lord; the Lord will pass by. There was a strong and violent wind rending the mountains and crushing rocks before the Lord—but the Lord was not in the wind; after the wind, an earthquake—but the Lord was not in the earthquake; after the earthquake, fire—but the Lord was not in the fire; after the fire, a light silent sound.

When he heard this, Elijah hid his face in his cloak and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. A voice said to him, Why are you here, Elijah? He replied, “I have been most zealous for the Lord, the God of hosts, but the Israelites have forsaken your covenant. They have destroyed your altars and murdered your prophets by the sword. I alone remain, and they seek to take my life.” The Lord said to him: Go back! Take the desert road to Damascus. When you arrive, you shall anoint Hazael as king of Aram. You shall also anoint Jehu, son of Nimshi, as king of Israel, and Elisha, son of Shaphat of Abel-meholah, as prophet to succeed you. Anyone who escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill. Anyone who escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill. But I will spare seven thousand in Israel—every knee that has not bent to Baal, every mouth that has not kissed him. "​

 

[awitch]

A few thoughts come to mind.

Elijah goes showboating and God plays along in dramatic fashion by igniting his water-logged sacrifice with fire from the sky upon request.

Having won the little competition, our hero of the story gruesomely executes 450 people and his punishment is to no longer be a prophet after God sends angels to provide food and water to help him escape the area so he doesn't have to face retribution from the locals.

The Bishop suggests that the lesson of the story is that maybe when religion drives you to lash out, you should instead try to listen to the little whisper of God who is powerful and authoritative.


So unless I'm missing something, the powerful and authoritative god is powerful and authoritative for the showboating part and the escaping retribution part but is whispering for the slaughter of 450 people who were just shown off part? That's messed up. When religion is fueling the "brutal" impulses, that's the time God should not be whispering. And what does it say of a religion when it can fuel brutal impulses in the first place?

 

[mourningdove~]

In this video, the wonderful speaker Bishop Barron discusses the story of Elijah, with various aspects from his life, and discusses it in the context of religion as a whole. In particular, Barron discusses the famous event of Elijah challenging the worshipers of Baal to a divine showdown: Which god will send a fire from heaven?

I believe anyone of any religion can connect with what Bishop Barron discusses, and I would appreciate from input from people of any religion.

Enjoyed the sermon.

It got me thinking about online posting behavior, particularly when Christians of different traditions begin discussing ... debating ... their differing theological beliefs with each other. I've sometimes seen 'the best and worst' of religion displayed in the way some of those 'discussions' have gone.

(In the past, I myself have been guilty of participating in that kind of 'best and worst', so maybe that's why the sermon spoke to me in this particular way. )

As Christians, we are told to speak the truth in love. Can be a real challenge at times, but our words are most effective for the Lord when we do so ...

 

[awitch]

I also have questions:

Let's say it takes Elijah 1 minute to get into position, kill one of Baal worshipers, confirm the wound is sufficient, and move on the to the next. With 450 of them, it would have taken 7.5 hours. That assumes he doesn't stop to eat, rest, or use the bathroom and I would think he would need to sharpen his sword at least a few times during the slaughter, too.

What were the other Baal worshipers doing that whole time? Just standing around waiting for their turn to get killed? Did any of them plea for mercy since they acknowledged they had the wrong god? None of them tried to run away? Or since it would have been 450 to 1, none of them tried to fight?

I see nothing in the story to suggest that God was opposed to the slaughter. God helped Elijah before and after. Maybe He should have spoken up from a whisper after Elijah killed the first 3 or 4 of them if he was against it? Elijah isn't drowned, or swallowed by the earth, or turned into a pillar of salt, or mauled by random bears, or spontaneously combusts like other punishments that God doled out. It sounds like He fires Elijah because it's a PR problem for God to retain a prophet who killed 450 people AFTER they acknowledged they had the wrong god.

And why would God choose a prophet that he knew was going to kill so many people? If God knew what was going to happen, could he not have warned Elijah not to do the slaughtery part in advance?

This story makes no sense and I'm not sure why you would highlight it for non-Christians.

 

[cloudyday2]

This story makes no sense and I'm not sure why you would highlight it for non-Christians.

I didn't watch the sermon, but I was also puzzled by the choice of this story with it's religious intolerance. There are so many other stories where God proved his supremacy along with the mercy, generosity, inclusiveness, etc. that people of all faiths can admire.

 

[dlamberth]

What I take from the sermon, which I found intriguing , is a warning that there is a shadow side to the religious that can cause great harm. History is full of such example. At the same time, on the flip side of the religious coin there is access to inner Love and Compassion. Which History also displays in great detail. And an important, I'd say even critical aspect of the spiritual life is an inner awareness of what's going on inside of ourselves. And if we take the time to actually look at what's going on there, we find that we're way better off acting from the Love and Compassion side of the coin. This is all basic spiritual teaching kind of stuff that all religions and the religious I would think need to look at as a starting point in their spiritual journey.

 

[cloudyday2]

An interesting detail of the competition between Elijah and the prophets of Baal is that there are 400 prophets of the goddess Asherah in addition to the 450 prophets of Baal. It is only the prophets of Baal who are challenged and slaughtered by Elijah. What about the 400 prophets of Asherah?

Another detail is the significance of the numbers 400 and 450. These numbers don't seem particularly significant to me, but they are specified by the storyteller. Why?