The Bereans

[sunlover1]

Editor would be a more appropriate term. Unless you think editors that work at publishing companies are the authors of the book because they approve every word in the work?

No, it's author.
If I author a book, I may have you PEN it for me and I may
hire someone to even EDIT it for me, but it's MY bag baby!
But more importantly we should all agree that it is a lamp
to our feet and a light to our path.
I HATE stubbing my toes
(MY ex used to roll around on the floor holding his toe lol
and he's a big brawny macho type )

 

[shinbits]

Editor would be a more appropriate term. Unless you think editors that work at publishing companies are the authors of the book because they approve every word in the work?

Editor's don't actually write in works they edit, now do they? God wrote Ten Commandments, a pillar of Christianity, and dictated to John through a vision. That's a lot more than "editting". That's something an author does.

 

[Mr Dave]

Oh really?

Really really

My position has always been the same; that God wrote the Bible, but He just used humans to do it. Nothing's changed.

No, your original position was "God wrote the Bible" full stop. Nothing more to it, it was God. Now you're starting to agree that men wrote the scriptures but, according to you, God used humans to do it. Still this isn't quite there, the scriptures are God-breathed (using only one verse), but were written by humans, imperfect humans, unless you're suggesting that for a few brief moments, God made certain humans perfect and then took this away again.
Jer 1:1 The words of Jeremiah.
Before you pick up on it, Jeremiah says what God says to him, but not that God used him to write these words, or that the bits in the book in-between 'the word of the Lord' is dictated by God. It says it right there, "the words of Jeremiah."

 

[Dark_Lite]

Editor's don't actually write in works they edit, now do they? God wrote Ten Commandments, a pillar of Christianity, and dictated to John through a vision. That's a lot more than "editting". That's something an author does.

Yeah, again, two pieces out of a whole does not cover the whole. And technically, the Ten Commandments were written on tablets of stone, and then copied/received from oral tradition by the author of Exodus.

 

[sunlover1]

Really really

No, your original position was "God wrote the Bible" full stop. Nothing more to it, it was God. Now you're starting to agree that men wrote the scriptures but, according to you, God used humans to do it. Still this isn't quite there, the scriptures are God-breathed (using only one verse), but were written by humans, imperfect humans, unless you're suggesting that for a few brief moments, God made certain humans perfect and then took this away again.
Jer 1:1 The words of Jeremiah.
Before you pick up on it, Jeremiah says what God says to him, but not that God used him to write these words, or that the bits in the book in-between 'the word of the Lord' is dictated by God. It says it right there, "the words of Jeremiah."

I think i understand the confusion now.
Here's how I look at it.
No matter who "penned" what. I believe in my heart of hearts
that God intended that writing and it was He indeed who authored
it through His Spirit.

However!
Either way we look at it we have the same end result with God
getting all of the credit! So it's all good.

 

[sunlover1]

Hey
what about those Bereans?

 

[Mr Dave]

Hey
what about those Bereans?

Can we agree that they weren't the authors of the Holy Scriptures

 

[sunlover1]

Can we agree that they weren't the authors of the Holy Scriptures

lol.
And that they're noble

 

[shinbits]

Really really




No, your original position was "God wrote the Bible" full stop. Nothing more to it, it was God. Now you're starting to agree that men wrote the scriptures but, according to you, God used humans to do it.

If I write a song but use some ideas that people give me as lyrics, who gets credit for the song? I do. I may acknowledge the others who gave me ideas, but I alone would be credited with the song. Same with the Bible. God decided what would be in the Bible, wrote the first doctrines (Ten commandments) and dictated the last one through a dream(Revelation). Everything in between, God gets the credit for, even He decided to use some ideas from humans.

All you're doing is trying to play word games. God is clearly the author, no matter what cheap technicallities you're trying to conjure up.

Jer 1:1 The words of Jeremiah.
Before you pick up on it, Jeremiah says what God says to him, but not that God used him to write these words, or that the bits in the book in-between 'the word of the Lord' is dictated by God. It says it right there, "the words of Jeremiah."

And YOU say right there, that Jeremiah says what GOD says to him. The parts that aren't directly dictated are still aproved By God to be in the Bible. Thus, God is still the author of the Bible.

Peace.

 

[shinbits]

Yeah, again, two pieces out of a whole does not cover the whole. And technically, the Ten Commandments were written on tablets of stone, and then copied/received from oral tradition by the author of Exodus.

God wrote the Ten Commandments. Period. Use your head. God gets credit for it, not those who put was written already into a book.

 

[MrPolo]

Note how even YOU acknowledge that God decides what will be in the Bible or not. Thus, my original point stands: God approved every word that would be in the Bible, making God the author of it.

That's right. I don't disagree with you a whit there! I disagree that ONLY Scripture is how God transmits divine revelation.

You'd be happy to know that the Catholic Church agrees with what you've said here. From the Catholic Catechism:

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."

136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).​

 

[Mr Dave]

I think i understand the confusion now.
Here's how I look at it.
No matter who "penned" what. I believe in my heart of hearts
that God intended that writing and it was He indeed who authored
it through His Spirit.

However!
Either way we look at it we have the same end result with God
getting all of the credit! So it's all good.

I may have pushed the opposing view a tad too far
My argument started off against the words "God wrote the Bible" (implying it wasn't men), a view I still hold, but have pushed the argument beyond the realms of truthfulness.
I'm only human

 

[shinbits]

That's right. I don't disagree with you a whit there! I disagree that ONLY Scripture is how God transmits divine revelation.

Then you're arguing with the wrong person. I don't believe that Scripture is the only way God transmits divine revelation.
However, Scripture's the ultimate authority on doctrine.

You'd be happy to know that the Catholic Church agrees with what you've said here. From the Catholic Catechism:

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."

136 God is the author of Sacred Scripture because he inspired its human authors; he acts in them and by means of them. He thus gives assurance that their writings teach without error his saving truth (cf. DV 11).
​

Well I'll be a monkey's gynocologist.

 

[sunlover1]

I may have pushed the opposing view a tad too far
My argument started off against the words "God wrote the Bible" (implying it wasn't men), a view I still hold, but have pushed the argument beyond the realms of truthfulness.
I'm only human

There, there, now.
Everything's all good.

(I don't RECALL scolding anyone LOL
Must have been accidentally using
my "mama" voice)

 

[Mr Dave]

There, there, now.
Everything's all good.

(I don't RECALL scolding anyone LOL
Must have been accidentally using
my "mama" voice)

Hey I'm Britsh, we "apologize…even when it’s not [our] fault. That’s how it works here. It’s a weird type of diffuser of angst or aggression." Top Ten Things Brits Do Better Than Americans | Smitten by Britain

Don't worry, no scalding

 

[MrPolo]

Then you're arguing with the wrong person. I don't believe that Scripture is the only way God transmits divine revelation.
However, Scripture's the ultimate authority on doctrine.

Oh, well I disagree with that notion too, and I don't think the Bereans passage teaches that either. So maybe for today we can just toast to God being the author of Scripture through the human writers.

 

[Dark_Lite]

God wrote the Ten Commandments. Period.

Yes.

Use your head.

You keep saying that. You should stop saying that.

God gets credit for it, not those who put was written already into a book.

And ............ again, two parts does not cover the whole.

Now, regarding the CCC passages: After reading the relevant passages (beyond what Mr Polo has posted), I have had to modify my own position somewhat, but not too much. I have never objected that God is the source and ultimate approver of what is in the Bible, but I do object to the way you are using the word author. Another relevant passage from the CCC, cited from Dei Verbum, is:

"106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.""

The CCC is affirming that God is the "true" author of the Scriptures, but it is not diminishing the role of the writers themselves, which is the vibe your analogies are giving me. It has a more direct view of what constitutes divine inspiration, but other than that my position was fairly close to it to begin with.

It's just that when I hear/read "God wrote the Bible," it conjures up images of human copy machines. Analogies about secretarial dictation or humans as pens don't help.

I think because of these CCC passages, we are more or less in agreement. Do you agree with the bolded parts of this statement? "God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors [...]"

 

[Fireinfolding]

1Thes 1:5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

The Thessalonians might not have searched the scriptures as the Bereans did but when they received the gospel it doesnt appear that the gospel they preaches was in word only, but all the above accompanied the message of the apostles (which would make all the difference). The bereans showed earnest interest in examining Gods words for themselves, and even as it encourages the study of the scriptures, commending them in this seems right.

But what if some dude walked in with no power at all and claiming "We have the words of God hear ye us"? But nothing of God accompanied them only their own claims?

So even the Thess's reception is a witness to the power of God even in that sense

 

[shinbits]

Oh, well I disagree with that notion too, and I don't think the Bereans passage teaches that either. So maybe for today we can just toast to God being the author of Scripture through the human writers.

Sure. Pleasure discussing with you.

 

[shinbits]

Yes.



You keep saying that. You should stop saying that.



And ............ again, two parts does not cover the whole.

Now, regarding the CCC passages: After reading the relevant passages (beyond what Mr Polo has posted), I have had to modify my own position somewhat, but not too much. I have never objected that God is the source and ultimate approver of what is in the Bible, but I do object to the way you are using the word author. Another relevant passage from the CCC, cited from Dei Verbum, is:

"106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.""

The CCC is affirming that God is the "true" author of the Scriptures, but it is not diminishing the role of the writers themselves, which is the vibe your analogies are giving me. It has a more direct view of what constitutes divine inspiration, but other than that my position was fairly close to it to begin with.

It's just that when I hear/read "God wrote the Bible," it conjures up images of human copy machines. Analogies about secretarial dictation or humans as pens don't help.

I think because of these CCC passages, we are more or less in agreement. Do you agree with the bolded parts of this statement? "God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors [...]"

Who gets the credit for the Bible? God or man? And remember, the Bible says God wont share his glory with another.

So who gets the credit? God or man?