The Beast that was and is not identified

[3 Resurrections]

Let me see if can reconcile the two positions. In Revelation 13:1 the beast coming out of the sea is a kingdom. The ten horns, ten kings of that kingdom. The seven heads, seven heads of that kingdom.

One of the heads has been mortally wounded and healed. That head is the individual person, who has been tagged the beast for the last 42 months of the 7 years. His kingdom, featuring 10 kings that rule with him, is the EU, the end times Roman Empire.

The composite make up of the beast's kingdom in Revelation 13 is an indication that with 42 months left in the 7 years, the EU (the beast's kingdom, with likely allies of post rapture United States and Canada) will have gained control of the territories once held by the three historic kingdoms of Babylon, Medes-Persians, Greek.

There are two verses that throws all that modern-day conjecture out the window. We are told in Revelation 13:2 that Satan gave to the Sea Beast his own power, and his own seat (thronos), and great authority. Satan's "Seat" or "throne" was in the city of Pergamos, according to Revelation 2:13. This was the 40' tall altar to Zeus in the temple built high atop the mountain Pergamos was situated on. Antipas was martyred on this altar, Christ said. The entire idol-worshipping Pergamum kingdom and Satan's seat in the city of Pergamos was given to the Roman Republic in 133 BC as a dying bequest by King Attalus III, who had no heir to whom he could pass his kingdom.

You are far, far too late with your Sea Beast identity. It was the Roman Republic, in ancient days not a modern-day EU, who has never been given the Pergamos altar where Antipas was martyred.

 

[Douggg]

There are two verses that throws all that modern-day conjecture out the window. We are told in Revelation 13:2 that Satan gave to the Sea Beast his own power, and his own seat (thronos), and great authority.

Not quiet that simple. Regarding Satan giving the beast his power, it is not talking about the beast as a kingdom, but the beast as a person.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

Take a look a few verses down about that mouth of a lion... It speaks great things and blasphemies. It is the mouth of the head wounded to death, but healed. That head is a king, a person.

3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Douggg, you are totally missing the significance of those features of a lion, bear, and leopard, which are ALL indicative of the three Beast kingdoms back in Daniel. One after another, the power behind each of these kingdoms passed down to the next subsequent kingdom, and was subsumed into it. The final, fourth Beast of Daniel which was called "Dreadful and Terrible", was the phase of the Sea Beast which was led by ancient Rome.

If ALL of these 3 former kingdoms were somehow represented within that Sea Beast, (Chaldean, Medo-Persian, and Greek), then it stands to reason that its biography had started all the way back with the Chaldean empire, and had lasted into John's days when its Roman phase was in power. That is where the 666 YEARS comes into play. At the beginning when that lion kingdom of the Chaldean empire was manifested, it was made to "stand upon its feet AS A MAN, and a MAN'S HEART was given unto it" (Dan. 7:4). This is where the "number of a MAN" also comes into play when counting and interpreting the 666 number of the Sea Beast. Daniel's entire STATUE of a MAN represented the sum total of ALL those pagan kingdoms in one unit. A Statue whose biography was 666 years old when John was writing.

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

Many translations don't use the word "Him" in this context referring to the Beast. They use the word "IT" instead. And the margin says that it was given power to "MAKE WAR" 42 months against the saints and overcome them, which the Roman empire did following the AD 64 fire at Rome, by launching a persecution period against Christians which lasted 42 months until just before Nero's death.

 

[Douggg]

If ALL of these 3 former kingdoms were somehow represented within that Sea Beast, (Chaldean, Medo-Persian, and Greek), then it stands to reason that its biography had started all the way back with the Chaldean empire, and had lasted into John's days when its Roman phase was in power. That is where the 666 YEARS comes into play.

It is not 666 years.

The 666 is the number of his name (the beast person).

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

I do not know what the name of the beast person is yet. But I do know that the 666 is not 666 years. The 666 is derived from counting the number of a certain man's name - who will be mortally wounded and comes back to life.

Which the world will be dumbfounded by it, when it happens (paraphrased) Revelation 17:8b.
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When a Jew becomes the leader of the EU, then we will know who the person is.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The 666 is the number of his name

Of course, you realize that a name is given to things when they first come into existence, be that a child, a nation, the animals at creation - or the Sea Beast.

The number of the Beast's name means the number of "birthdays" when that Sea Beast had a named existence as of the time when John was writing Revelation. With a little wisdom thrown in, the people John was then addressing could figure this out by a little calculation. They didn't need to wait some 2,000 years to finally see the light as to this Sea Beast's identity. They could figure it out back then in those days.

Didn't God take time in scripture to emphasize the number of a man's life? Once after the flood in Genesis 6:3-5 He said the number of years mankind would be given was 120; then later it was "threescore years and ten", and only fourscore years if strength prevailed in Psalm 90:10. Then in the New Heavens and New Earth, Isaiah 65:20 said it would not be unusual for one who was righteous to reach a hundred years old.

God is apparently in the habit of giving lifespans for certain things and revealing that in scripture. Why wouldn't God take time to emphasize the age of this Sea Beast, in order to help identify it for John's audience? This was a riddle that THEY were supposed to be able to solve back then.

As for the "wound" you bring up, this was to be a wound to one of the HEADS of the Sea Beast, not the Beast itself, per se. Aren't HEADS supposed to represent literal mountains in the other Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast context? That's the way the angel interprets them. Then it would seem that a literal mountain which this Sea Beast sits on receives a deadly wound. Rome sat on seven hills. Wouldn't that "wound" then represent serious geographical damage to the very land Rome sat on, and not a wound to the Beast itself?

 

[Douggg]

As for the "wound" you bring up, this was to be a wound to one of the HEADS of the Sea Beast, not the Beast itself, per se. Aren't HEADS supposed to represent literal mountains in the other Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast context?

Not when it comes to representing 7 kings. And the beast the eighth king.

The "must continue" for a short space applies to king 7. The eighth king is off the seven kings.

King 7 will be mortally wounded and comes back to life as King 8 - who is then called the beast.

Are the 7 heads on the beast in Revelation 13 - mountains? No, since no mountain has the mouth of a lion.

That mouth blashpmenes God and His Name, His tabernacle, and them in heaven.

Revelation 19:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

I show on my pictorial the open mouth of a lion on the prominent head.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Not when it comes to representing 7 kings. And the beast the eighth king.

The "must continue" for a short space applies to king 7. The eighth king is off the seven kings.

King 7 will be mortally wounded and comes back to life as King 8 - who is then called the beast.

Let's not confuse the Revelation 13 Sea Beast with the other Revelation 17 Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness. They are two different Beasts. The Sea Beast is Roman (coming from the "sea" of the Gentile nations), and the Scarlet Beast is Judean (coming from its wilderness setting, which is identified with Israel's Exodus wanderings in the wilderness, and Judea's natural landscape features). Moreover, both Beasts had different biography patterns; with the Sea Beast having a continual existence for 666 years, and with the Scarlet Beast having an on-again, off-again existence with its "WAS, IS NOT, and yet IS" biographical pattern.

As for the "lion's mouth", didn't Paul claim he was "delivered from the lion's mouth" in II Tim. 4:17 after he was initially released from imprisonment under the emperor Nero?

Even though you and I differ in our interpretations, I like your ability to put your views into graphic forms - always have liked a visual breakdown of prophetic things, to help clarify them to my understanding. When my father died a month ago, for memory's sake, I kept his Larkin book of prophetic charts that I used to pore over as a young child. But if those graphics or drawings veer off in the wrong direction from scripture's own terms, it only clouds the interpretation.

Seriously, Douggg, you have to address how your paradigm answers the fact that Satan in Revelation 13:2 gave his throne in Pergamos ("the Dragon's SEAT" or "thronos" of Revelation 2:13) to your Sea Beast character, if you are defining it in modern-day terms of the EU, etc. When was the 40' tall altar in the city of Pergamos ever given to the EU or any other modern-day entity? I have already recounted from the Roman Senate records how this altar in Pergamos, along with the entire Pergamum kingdom, was given to the Roman Republic back in 133 BC by bequest of the dying King Attalus III. This points to the ancient Roman Republic and empire as being connected with the Sea Beast at the time John was writing. This altar at Pergamos being given to the Roman Republic would have been something John's readers at that time would have recognized as a historic identifier for the Sea Beast, since the faithful Antipas had been martyred on that very altar in recent memory for them.

 

[Douggg]

Seriously, Douggg, you have to address how your paradigm answers the fact that Satan in Revelation 13:2 gave his throne in Pergamos ("the Dragon's SEAT" or "thronos" of Revelation 2:13) to your Sea Beast character, if you are defining it in modern-day terms of the EU, etc. When was the 40' tall altar in the city of Pergamos ever given to the EU or any other modern-day entity?

I don't think Revelation 13:2 is referring to a location, but a level of authority.

In Matthew 23:2 for example, Jesus was talking about the scribes and Pharisees...

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

When my father died a month ago, for memory's sake, I kept his Larkin book of prophetic charts that I used to pore over as a young child. But if those graphics or drawings veer off in the wrong direction from scripture's own terms, it only clouds the interpretation.

Sorry to hear about your dad passing. Yes, Clarence Larkin did a lot of charts.

A chart even if it is wrong, the errors can be more readily pointed out compared to a narrative of events.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I don't think Revelation 13:2 is referring to a location, but a level of authority.

In Matthew 23:2 for example, Jesus was talking about the scribes and Pharisees...

2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

That might be a plausible explanation, except for the fact that Revelation 2:13 definitely IS speaking of a location for the throne of Satan. Christ told those faithful ones in the Pergamos church, "I know thy works, and WHERE thou dwellest, WHERE Satan's seat is..." This "Satan's seat" was an actual physical structure in the city of Pergamos, upon which the faithful Antipas was martyred.

Revelation 13:2 refers BACK to the Revelation 2:13 verse, when mentioning "Satan's seat" or "throne" in Pergamos. Speaking of that actual physical altar structure in Pergamos, Revelation 13:2 says it was given to the Sea Beast - which was the Roman Republic in 133 BC. Idol-worshipping Pergamos was well known as being a leader in the cult of emperor-worship, and was the original capital of Asia until it was moved to Ephesus. It had a famous healing center that the nobility of the Roman empire flocked to, dedicated to Asclepius, the god of healing, whose symbol was, significantly - a serpent.