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The Basis for Morality

fiend007

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I remember a long time ago in grade school when I told someone I was an atheist. The person immediately asked me what stops me from doing whatever I want, like raping and killing if I don’t believe in a god. At first I was stunned, because the need to rape or kill someone had never entered my head. So for all you people who ask the same type of question, here is your answer.

First, ask yourself this question, if you saw a child killed right in front of you, would you just automatically, on a subconscious level feel immediate empathy for the child, which brings about the feelings of sadness, uneasiness, and even anger? Or would you on a conscious level think about the situation, realize that the bible says murdering a child is wrong, and then feel bad? If your answer is the former, than any argument that morality authority based solely on Bible falls apart. If we feel bad about something happening, we will do things to prevent it. If we feel empathy of someone who gets hurt, we will do what we can to prevent it. How much empathy we feel for someone correlates into what we do to prevent it.

Empathy, which is the basis for rational morality, is not the same in everyone. Think of it as an IQ scale for analogous purposes. Just like in intelligence, everyone has a different 'score'. The average would be 100, which is exhibited by most people and would be a general feeling of guilt and sadness when people are wrongfully treated, hurt, or killed. The higher the score, for our sake, correlates to more feelings of empathy. A score of 150 for example would be someone like Gandhi, who was so empathetic to the suffering of others, even his enemies, he figured the only solution to facing the British was total nonviolence. On the other end of the spectrum, lets say 50 and below, would be people like Jeffrey Dahmer, and more recently this Russian 'Chessboard' murderer, who feel absolutely no emotion when they kill. Think about it this way, if we felt no emotion at all for the suffering of someone, it becomes a non issue what happens to the person. Most people would nonchalantly step on an ant and not think much of it, feeling no emotion. But there are actual people out there that would never do such a thing as this because they would actually feel emotion if the ant was killed or suffered in any way. PETA is another good example. The whole reason they do what they do is because they feel tremendous empathy towards animals. Most people don’t feel the same way, considering the evolutionary consequences of feeling empathy for the death of an animal would likely make you starve to death if you lived 5000 years ago.

Because of this, one must also understand that all human actions are ‘selfish’. Even the person doing charity work in Africa is actually doing it for selfish reasons. The selfish reason in this case would be to make themselves feel better. These are people who feel such a tremendous amount of empathy for others they try and do everything they can to help stop the suffering. This is natural because empathy brings about the feelings of profound sadness, grief, frustration, anger, anxiety, and disgust. Since people naturally do not want to go through these feelings they try and do everything they can to alleviate it. If you didn’t feel any empathy for the suffering children in Africa, there is no incentive for you to do anything at all about it. Unless of course you read a book about a god who will reward you with eternal gratification if you help others in this way.

People who fail to understand why people can still be moral and atheist are the type of people who scare me. What they exhibit is a 'fake' morality, based on the premise selfish eternal gratification or damnation, not on your own inherent empathy and sympathy for others. Those who claim that the basis for all moral authority is the bible (or any other religious text for that matter) are not only wrong, but also explain a lot about their own inherent (lack of) morality.
 

tapero

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I remember a long time ago in grade school when I told someone I was an atheist. The person immediately asked me what stops me from doing whatever I want, like raping and killing if I don’t believe in a god. At first I was stunned, because the need to rape or kill someone had never entered my head. So for all you people who ask the same type of question, here is your answer.

First, ask yourself this question, if you saw a child killed right in front of you, would you just automatically, on a subconscious level feel immediate empathy for the child, which brings about the feelings of sadness, uneasiness, and even anger? Or would you on a conscious level think about the situation, realize that the bible says murdering a child is wrong, and then feel bad? If your answer is the former, than any argument that morality authority based solely on Bible falls apart. If we feel bad about something happening, we will do things to prevent it. If we feel empathy of someone who gets hurt, we will do what we can to prevent it. How much empathy we feel for someone correlates into what we do to prevent it.

Empathy, which is the basis for rational morality, is not the same in everyone. Think of it as an IQ scale for analogous purposes. Just like in intelligence, everyone has a different 'score'. The average would be 100, which is exhibited by most people and would be a general feeling of guilt and sadness when people are wrongfully treated, hurt, or killed. The higher the score, for our sake, correlates to more feelings of empathy. A score of 150 for example would be someone like Gandhi, who was so empathetic to the suffering of others, even his enemies, he figured the only solution to facing the British was total nonviolence. On the other end of the spectrum, lets say 50 and below, would be people like Jeffrey Dahmer, and more recently this Russian 'Chessboard' murderer, who feel absolutely no emotion when they kill. Think about it this way, if we felt no emotion at all for the suffering of someone, it becomes a non issue what happens to the person. Most people would nonchalantly step on an ant and not think much of it, feeling no emotion. But there are actual people out there that would never do such a thing as this because they would actually feel emotion if the ant was killed or suffered in any way. PETA is another good example. The whole reason they do what they do is because they feel tremendous empathy towards animals. Most people don’t feel the same way, considering the evolutionary consequences of feeling empathy for the death of an animal would likely make you starve to death if you lived 5000 years ago.

Because of this, one must also understand that all human actions are ‘selfish’. Even the person doing charity work in Africa is actually doing it for selfish reasons. The selfish reason in this case would be to make themselves feel better. These are people who feel such a tremendous amount of empathy for others they try and do everything they can to help stop the suffering. This is natural because empathy brings about the feelings of profound sadness, grief, frustration, anger, anxiety, and disgust. Since people naturally do not want to go through these feelings they try and do everything they can to alleviate it. If you didn’t feel any empathy for the suffering children in Africa, there is no incentive for you to do anything at all about it. Unless of course you read a book about a god who will reward you with eternal gratification if you help others in this way.

People who fail to understand why people can still be moral and atheist are the type of people who scare me. What they exhibit is a 'fake' morality, based on the premise selfish eternal gratification or damnation, not on your own inherent empathy and sympathy for others. Those who claim that the basis for all moral authority is the bible (or any other religious text for that matter) are not only wrong, but also explain a lot about their own inherent (lack of) morality.

People are afraid of what they don't understand many times.

There are all kinds of people out there, doesn't matter what they believe as pertains to faith or non faith; people have many prejudices (prejudgements) on many other things which occur in this world.
 
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Autumnleaf

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I remember a long time ago in grade school when I told someone I was an atheist. The person immediately asked me what stops me from doing whatever I want, like raping and killing if I don’t believe in a god. At first I was stunned, because the need to rape or kill someone had never entered my head. So for all you people who ask the same type of question, here is your answer.

First, ask yourself this question, if you saw a child killed right in front of you, would you just automatically, on a subconscious level feel immediate empathy for the child, which brings about the feelings of sadness, uneasiness, and even anger? Or would you on a conscious level think about the situation, realize that the bible says murdering a child is wrong, and then feel bad? If your answer is the former, than any argument that morality authority based solely on Bible falls apart. If we feel bad about something happening, we will do things to prevent it. If we feel empathy of someone who gets hurt, we will do what we can to prevent it. How much empathy we feel for someone correlates into what we do to prevent it.

Empathy, which is the basis for rational morality, is not the same in everyone. Think of it as an IQ scale for analogous purposes. Just like in intelligence, everyone has a different 'score'. The average would be 100, which is exhibited by most people and would be a general feeling of guilt and sadness when people are wrongfully treated, hurt, or killed. The higher the score, for our sake, correlates to more feelings of empathy. A score of 150 for example would be someone like Gandhi, who was so empathetic to the suffering of others, even his enemies, he figured the only solution to facing the British was total nonviolence. On the other end of the spectrum, lets say 50 and below, would be people like Jeffrey Dahmer, and more recently this Russian 'Chessboard' murderer, who feel absolutely no emotion when they kill. Think about it this way, if we felt no emotion at all for the suffering of someone, it becomes a non issue what happens to the person. Most people would nonchalantly step on an ant and not think much of it, feeling no emotion. But there are actual people out there that would never do such a thing as this because they would actually feel emotion if the ant was killed or suffered in any way. PETA is another good example. The whole reason they do what they do is because they feel tremendous empathy towards animals. Most people don’t feel the same way, considering the evolutionary consequences of feeling empathy for the death of an animal would likely make you starve to death if you lived 5000 years ago.

Because of this, one must also understand that all human actions are ‘selfish’. Even the person doing charity work in Africa is actually doing it for selfish reasons. The selfish reason in this case would be to make themselves feel better. These are people who feel such a tremendous amount of empathy for others they try and do everything they can to help stop the suffering. This is natural because empathy brings about the feelings of profound sadness, grief, frustration, anger, anxiety, and disgust. Since people naturally do not want to go through these feelings they try and do everything they can to alleviate it. If you didn’t feel any empathy for the suffering children in Africa, there is no incentive for you to do anything at all about it. Unless of course you read a book about a god who will reward you with eternal gratification if you help others in this way.

People who fail to understand why people can still be moral and atheist are the type of people who scare me. What they exhibit is a 'fake' morality, based on the premise selfish eternal gratification or damnation, not on your own inherent empathy and sympathy for others. Those who claim that the basis for all moral authority is the bible (or any other religious text for that matter) are not only wrong, but also explain a lot about their own inherent (lack of) morality.


Stalin and Mao have proven to the world how subjective morality is for atheist governed countries. If you would rather be among their form of morality its your choice.

Christians believe morality is black and white as written in the Bible. The makes the definition of morality concrete and of a higher authority than man.
 
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FadingWhispers3

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The bible itself supports the existence of morality in those without belief in God.

"Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them." Romans 2:14

* Gentiles include atheists.

Before God, atheists and theistic believers are both lost.

Yet we have the parable of who? Not the good teacher of the law (symbolizing Christian authority figure), but the good Samaritan (symbolizing nonbeliever theistic or atheistic).

The question isn't what's your basis for morality. The question is: who is being the neighbor?
 
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Beanieboy

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My Jewish friend and I sat on a balcony, and she said, "There has to be a God. If there wasn't, there would be chaos. People would do whatever they wanted." I said, "Really? Would you go on a killing spree if you were to find out right now that there was no God? You would risk spending your life in jail to "do what you wanted"? Honestly, think about it. What do you not do now that you would do if there was no God??"

She thought about it and said, "well, nothing, really. I already like to drink. I have sex. But my life wouldn't change, but it would just seem so....empty and pointless."

I said, "Why? Life is full of beauty and mystery. There are so many people that are so focused on heaven that they seem to miss all of the beauty and life surrounding them. If you can't appreciate this gift, if it is from God, how can you appreciate heaven?"

She was quiet for a long time.

I find it very disturbing when a Christian or Jew says that they would live there life differently if there were no God, because it seems that they are simply obeying the law the way a criminal only obeys if he thinks he will be caught.
 
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Phred

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Stalin and Mao have proven to the world how subjective morality is for atheist governed countries. If you would rather be among their form of morality its your choice.
Nonsense. Stalin and Mao simply proved what happens to you when you get in the way of the state in a dictatorship. The fact that they tried to remove religion and replace it with the state doesn't say a thing about the morality of atheists... although you folks love to simplify and exaggerate this every chance you get.

Christians believe morality is black and white as written in the Bible.
Oh do ya? Then why were the German Christians so able to toss Jews into the ovens? Yeah, nevermind, I know... they weren't True Christians® Neither were the inquisitors in the inquisition or any of the wonderful Christians throughout the centuries who inflicted horrible tortures upon people in the name of Jesus Christ. You see, morality isn't written in black and white in the Bible. It says you shall not kill and then says go kill in My Name. The Bible is one of the least black and white documents ever written. So please... give us all a break and quit pretending you draw your morality from it.

The makes the definition of morality concrete and of a higher authority than man.
Woman?
 
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Patashu

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Stalin and Mao have proven to the world how subjective morality is for atheist governed countries. If you would rather be among their form of morality its your choice.

Christians believe morality is black and white as written in the Bible. The makes the definition of morality concrete and of a higher authority than man.
The same black and white morality that was once used on an incredibly widespread scale to encourage slavery, racism and sexism, right?

Quotes from the 19th century:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example."Rev. R. Furman, D.D., a Baptist pastor from South Carolina.[/FONT]

My question is thus: If the morality of the Bible and of Christianity is black-and-white and clear as crystal, why has moral relativism been displayed on the subject of slavery (it's considered wrong now but it wasn't then)?
 
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selfinflikted

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The same black and white morality that was once used on an incredibly widespread scale to encourage slavery, racism and sexism, right?

Quotes from the 19th century:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example."Rev. R. Furman, D.D., a Baptist pastor from South Carolina.[/FONT]

My question is thus: If the morality of the Bible and of Christianity is black-and-white and clear as crystal, why has moral relativism been displayed on the subject of slavery (it's considered wrong now but it wasn't then)?

Simple answer: As much as some christians love to say that their morals come from the bible, the truth of the matter is they do not. They simply choose which morals from the bible to follow, and which to ignore. This suggests to me that there is already some moral foundation in place within people, on which they can base their choices. Atheists simply cut out the middle man.
 
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Autumnleaf

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I find it very disturbing when a Christian or Jew says that they would live there life differently if there were no God, because it seems that they are simply obeying the law the way a criminal only obeys if he thinks he will be caught.

Would you stop looking both ways before crossing the street if no vehicles ever traveled on it? Different necessities for different people create different behaviors.
 
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Autumnleaf

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The same black and white morality that was once used on an incredibly widespread scale to encourage slavery, racism and sexism, right?

Quotes from the 19th century:

[FONT=arial,helvetica]"[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President, Confederate States of America[/FONT]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]"The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example."Rev. R. Furman, D.D., a Baptist pastor from South Carolina.[/FONT]

My question is thus: If the morality of the Bible and of Christianity is black-and-white and clear as crystal, why has moral relativism been displayed on the subject of slavery (it's considered wrong now but it wasn't then)?

The Bible doesn't consider slavery wrong. If you think that is some sort of epiphany start a thread about it.
 
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