The Authority of the Believer

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If you haven't gathered, I explain and/or learn by way of analogy. That's probably why I enjoyed law school. Everything there is by way of analogy.

I am about to use a legal analogy to ask a question. I think this will be fun for a couple of reasons. (#1) If nothing else, you will learn something about the law, and (#2) I will not be doing as much of the talking after this posting.

I must warn you, though, while this may seem like an exercise in futility or a useless academic discussion from a guy with too much time on his hands, do not take these questions lightly!

If you examine these questions carefully and answer them with reasoned deliberation, you will have a greater understanding of your approach to your entire walk with God.

It's that important.

***

For the purposes of this thread, God's authority is made analogous to "property." Regarding this authority (i.e. this "property") that has been granted to believers:

1. Has God granted us ownership of this authority in fee simple absolute? --OR--

2. Has God granted us ownership of this authority in fee simple determinable? --OR--

3. Has God granted us ownership of this authority in fee simple with the possibility of reverter? --OR--

4. Has God granted us a life estate over this authority? --OR--

5. Has God given us a lease on this authority? --OR--

6. Has God granted us a power of attorney?

***

Now here is our LEGAL GLOSSARY:

FEE SIMPLE ABSOLUTE -- This is simply described as when the original owner conveys the absolute ownership of property to a new owner, with no strings attached. Once the original owner does this, he can no longer get it back (unless, of course, the new owner reconveys it to him)

FEE SIMPLE DETERMINABLE -- This is described as when the original owner conveys the absolute ownership of the property to a new owner; however certain strings are attached. If these obligations are not met, ownership AUTOMATICALLY reverts back to the original owner.

FEE SIMPLE WITH POSSIBLITY OF REVERTER -- This is identical to the Fee Simple Determinable, except that ownership does not automatically revert back to the original owner when the condition is violated; the original owner must proactively take repossession of the property.

LIFE ESTATE -- A life estate is similar to a Fee Simple Determinable, except that the condition is the death of the new owner. In other words, if the original owner grants a life estate to the new owner, even if the new owner were to sell the land to someone else, the property would revert back to the original owner upon the death of the first new owner.

LEASE -- We all know what this is. Here, the owner keeps legal ownership of the property, but the tenant has legal possession. The owner cannot repossess the property unless the terms of the lease are violated, and even then, proper legal steps are required.

POWER OF ATTORNEY -- Here, one person gives a second person the right to possess authority on his behalf. However, the person granting the authority can revoke it at any time. Moreover, both persons can exercise this authority concurrently.

***

Now here is the big picture:

(A.) If our authority is derived from a grant in fee simple (absolute, or determinable, or with possiblity of reverter), or from the grant of a life estate, or from the grant of a lease, THEN our right of possession of this "property"--our right to exercise the authority--is exclusive of God. Subject only to the conditions placed in the aforementioned grants, we (and only we) would be able to exercise this authority; it would no longer belong to Christ. Thus if God wanted something (anything at all) done on Earth, He would need the consent of Christians.

(B.) Conversely, if our authority is derived merely from a power of attorney, then God may exercise His power soverignly without our permission. Moreover, if we do not comply with his bidding, He may revoke our status as his agents. Thus, if God wanted something done, He could let us use His authority, or He could act without our consent.

Whereas alternative (A) implies that Christians have exclusive control over the spiritual and the natural realms (i.e., that God cannot act without us), alternative (B) implies that Christ and the believer share this control.

Which is it? Discuss freely.
 

J4Jesus

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We have power in His name and its a co-operation

We obey and yield to Him and His power flowing thru us does the work


By the way God does not work by mans reasonings or ways of thinking.


1 Corinthians 2
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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J4Jesus said:
We have power in His name and its a co-operation

We obey and yield to Him and His power flowing thru us does the work


By the way God does not work by mans reasonings or ways of thinking.


1 Corinthians 2
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Be that as it may, the Gospels are chock full of parables where Christ took a spiritual truth and analogized it to a something from the natural realm.

Ergo, if you were trying to analogize this to one of the aforementioned ways authority in the natural realm may be transferred, which would it be?

Would it be a power of attorney, wherein God and the Christian have concurrent use of this authority (i.e, it is a cooperation)? Or would it be more like a fee, a life estate, or a lease since we must "obey and yield to him" in order for God to act?

Do we as Christians have exclusive use of this authority, or may God use it sovereignly (whether He wishes to or not)?

(I am leading us somewhere with this, BTW)
 
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PastorJoey

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TheMatmanReturns said:
Be that as it may, the Gospels are chock full of parables where Christ took a spiritual truth and analogized it to a something from the natural realm.

Ergo, if you were trying to analogize this to one of the aforementioned ways authority in the natural realm may be transferred, which would it be?

Would it be a power of attorney, wherein God and the Christian have concurrent use of this authority (i.e, it is a cooperation)? Or would it be more like a fee, a life estate, or a lease since we must "obey and yield to him" in order for God to act?

Do we as Christians have exclusive use of this authority, or may God use it sovereignly (whether He wishes to or not)?

(I am leading us somewhere with this, BTW)

We have been given the rightful use of the name of Jesus.

The authority was never given directly to us as was with Adam.

The authority was given to Jesus[the last Adam] & His name was given to us.

We have authority only through power of attorney of His name. So yes, God still has sovereign rights to step in as He pleases.
PastorJ
 
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God_Owned

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PastorJ said:
We have been given the rightful use of the name of Jesus.

The authority was never given directly to us as was with Adam.

The authority was given to Jesus[the last Adam] & His name was given to us.

We have authority only through power of attorney of His name. So yes, God still has sovereign rights to step in as He pleases.
PastorJ

Pastor J, you're in better shape that you think. Jesus has directly given you power in terms of actual power and authority. The word power in Like 9:1 is translated from the Greek word doonamis which is actual power as in dynamite. In Luke 10:19 you were given power as in authority; the Greek word ex-oo-see' means authority. Sounds like Jesus fixed you up all the way around.

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.


[SIZE=+1]duvnamiß [/SIZE]Dunamis (doo'-nam-is);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 1411

  1. strength power, ability
    1. inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth
    2. power for performing miracles
    3. moral power and excellence of soul
    4. the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth
    5. power and resources arising from numbers
    6. power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts
Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

[SIZE=+1]ejxousiva [/SIZE]Exousia (ex-oo-see'-ah);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 1849



  1. power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
    1. leave or permission
  2. physical and mental power
    1. the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises
  3. the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
  4. the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)
    1. universally
      1. authority over mankind
    2. specifically
      1. the power of judicial decisions
      2. of authority to manage domestic affairs
    3. metonymically
      1. a thing subject to authority or rule 4c
    4. jurisdiction
      1. one who possesses authority 4c
    5. a ruler, a human magistrate 4c
    6. the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates
    7. a sign of the husband's authority over his wife
      1. the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself
    8. the sign of regal authority, a crown
:wave:
 
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Godown said:
Pastor J, you're in better shape that you think. Jesus has directly given you power in terms of actual power and authority. The word power in Like 9:1 is translated from the Greek word doonamis which is actual power as in dynamite. In Luke 10:19 you were given power as in authority; the Greek word ex-oo-see' means authority. Sounds like Jesus fixed you up all the way around.

Luke 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power and authority over all devils, and to cure diseases.


[SIZE=+1]duvnamiß [/SIZE]Dunamis (doo'-nam-is);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 1411

  1. strength power, ability
    1. inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth
    2. power for performing miracles
    3. moral power and excellence of soul
    4. the power and influence which belong to riches and wealth
    5. power and resources arising from numbers
    6. power consisting in or resting upon armies, forces, hosts
Luke 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

[SIZE=+1]ejxousiva [/SIZE]Exousia (ex-oo-see'-ah);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Feminine, Strong #: 1849


  1. power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases
    1. leave or permission
  2. physical and mental power
    1. the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises
  3. the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege)
  4. the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed)
    1. universally
      1. authority over mankind
    2. specifically
      1. the power of judicial decisions
      2. of authority to manage domestic affairs
    3. metonymically
      1. a thing subject to authority or rule 4c
    4. jurisdiction
      1. one who possesses authority 4c
    5. a ruler, a human magistrate 4c
    6. the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates
    7. a sign of the husband's authority over his wife
      1. the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself
    8. the sign of regal authority, a crown
:wave:
Godown,

Just wanting to make sure we are on the same songsheet....

To the extent that we have authority:

Do we share this authority with God? Or is our authority mutually exclusive of God's authority?

Everyone else on this thread seems to say that it is a shared grant of authority. Your's however, is a bit more ambiguous. Could you please clarify?
 
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God_Owned

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TheMatmanReturns said:
Godown,

Just wanting to make sure we are on the same songsheet....

To the extent that we have authority:

Do we share this authority with God? Or is our authority mutually exclusive of God's authority?

Everyone else on this thread seems to say that it is a shared grant of authority. Your's however, is a bit more ambiguous. Could you please clarify?

Ambiguous? I thought the scriptures I gave to be exceedingly clear. Jesus gave us His authority and power to us to do certain things which are specified in the Word. Try equating this to a policeman. A policeman has been given the authority (his badge) to arrest bad guys and the power (gun) to arrest bad guys. We have the same power and authority over the devil.

:wave:
 
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PastorJoey

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Godown said:
Pastor J, you're in better shape that you think. Jesus has directly given you power in terms of actual power and authority........

:wave:
If that be the case then Why then do we need the name of Jesus? Why dont you go cast out devils and heal the sick "in the name of Godown"? God gave the authority and power to Jesus the 2nd Adam, the samre as he did the first. All of that power is at our disposal by power of attorney, the use of the name of Jesus.

If the authority was directly given to you and I as was with Adam, then that means that the fate of the world is in our hands as was with the first Adam. Death could once more enter the world through our sin. This authority is better off in the hands of Jesus the last Adam who resisted sin to the point of sweating great drops of blood and even to death.

God giving the Authority to Jesus was a safe guard against a repeat of history.

If we begin to walk in sin it separates us from the use of the name of the one who has the authority[Jesus], but Satan can never regain this authority.
 
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God_Owned

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All of that power is at our disposal by power of attorney, the use of the name of Jesus.

I never said that the exercise of that power wasn't initiated in the name of Jesus. I just said He had directly given you that power. Acts 1:8 - if you have the Holy Ghost, then you have power. It was directly given to you.

Yes, to some extent, God has left the fate of mankind is in our hands as was with the first Adam.

Death could once more enter the world through our sin.

Sin is already in the world, but yes we do at times mess things up.

This authority is better off in the hands of Jesus the last Adam who resisted sin to the point of sweating great drops of blood and even to death.


This is contrary to Jesus giving us His power which is clearly stated in the verses you were provided. He said He gave it to us. Are you saying that He didn't know what he was doing?

God giving the Authority to Jesus was a safe guard against a repeat of history.

God is our safe guard of the future.

If we begin to walk in sin it separates us from the use of the name of the one who has the authority[Jesus], but Satan can never regain this authority.

It doesn't separate us from the name or from the Holy Ghost, but it does cause us to doubt the Power because our heart condemn us. This lessens our confidence (faith) that God will work in our lives.
:wave:
 
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Godown said:
Ambiguous? I thought the scriptures I gave to be exceedingly clear. Jesus gave us His authority and power to us to do certain things which are specified in the Word. Try equating this to a policeman. A policeman has been given the authority (his badge) to arrest bad guys and the power (gun) to arrest bad guys. We have the same power and authority over the devil.

:wave:
You are answering the wrong question.

It is clear that we have executive authority which came from God. My question is simply whether God still has this authority now that we have it?

Has God ceeded this authority to us? Or do we share this authority with Him?
 
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God_Owned

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TheMatmanReturns said:
You are answering the wrong question.

It is clear that we have executive authority which came from God. My question is simply whether God still has this authority now that we have it?

Has God ceeded this authority to us? Or do we share this authority with Him?

Call me crazy, but I do believe that God is still in charge.

^_^
 
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CindyisHis

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This is a very thought provoking question, matman. I thought I knew the answer, but I went to the Word, since my opinion doesn't change truth. My opinion needs to be founded on truth. I'm still not entirely sure, but here are some scriptures to take into consideration.

Matthew 28:18 (which is spoken by Jesus after the resurrection). .......All power is given is given unto Me in heaven and in earth.

He also said this in Matthew 18:18 > .....whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

But then we see things as in Rev. 8, of all the things coming on the earth, none of which happened until after the prayers of the saints were mentioned.

Then there are scriptures saying we are joint-heirs, and that we are seated in heavenly places with Christ.

Well, I defintiely did not clear things up! :D But the Word always brings light. Glory to God!
 
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Godown said:
Call me crazy, but I do believe that God is still in charge.

^_^
That's all I wanted to know.

From what you are saying, God can still do whatever He wants. He still has all power, and authority. Even though we may exercise that authority, it's still God's, and He can exercise it sovereignly (with or without our invitation, supplication, or assistance)

If this is indeed what you believe, it pretty much lines up with what everyone else has said. Right?
 
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God_Owned

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That's all I wanted to know. From what you are saying, God can still do whatever He wants.

He will not violate His Word.


He still has all power, and authority. Even though we may exercise that authority, it's still God's, and He can exercise it sovereignly (with or without our invitation, supplication, or assistance)

If this is indeed what you believe, it pretty much lines up with what everyone else has said. Right?

Why would I tell you something that I don't believe?

It would help you to see the authority and power thing if you would see yourself as being one with God in Jesus, part of the Body of Christ. This is no longer a division of power, but an orchestration of power through the Body of Christ to each of its members in particular as accorded by their faith and in accordance with God's Word.

:wave:
 
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Godown said:
He will not violate His Word.


Clearly, you are not understanding the premise of my question.

Which of the following best fits what the Word teaches about God's authority in the lives of the believer?

A. "I am giving you authority inter vivos; as such, you--and only you--can exercise this authority. No longer will I be able to exercise this power without your participation."

OR

B. "I am giving you authority by way of a power of attorney; as such, we both can exercise this authority whenever we wish. Thus, if I want to exercise this authority without you, I still can. Although I may not choose to do so--although I may wish for you to exercise this authority on your own--I still reserve the right to intervene at My discretion."
 
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TheMatmanReturns said:
[/color][/size][/font]

Clearly, you are not understanding the premise of my question.

Which of the following best fits what the Word teaches about God's authority in the lives of the believer?

A. "I am giving you authority inter vivos; as such, you--and only you--can exercise this authority. No longer will I be able to exercise this power without your participation."

OR

B. "I am giving you authority by way of a power of attorney; as such, we both can exercise this authority whenever we wish. Thus, if I want to exercise this authority without you, I still can. Although I may not choose to do so--although I may wish for you to exercise this authority on your own--I still reserve the right to intervene at My discretion."

This is a good question Matt. For me though it isnt as easy as A or B.

There is scriptural grounds for both answers:

Psalms 24:1 KJV
(1) A Psalm of David. The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell

Psalms 115:16 KJV
(16) The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

I know from scripture that God does operate sovereignly at times, so then where does the truth of God needing somebody to co-operate with Him come in all of this? Can you shed some light on this?

One may say that under the New Testament God now has the privilege of operating sovereignly, but it was under the old testament that you see Him doing most of His sovereign acts.
 
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God_Owned

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TheMatmanReturns said:
[/color][/size][/font]

Clearly, you are not understanding the premise of my question.

Which of the following best fits what the Word teaches about God's authority in the lives of the believer?

A. "I am giving you authority inter vivos; as such, you--and only you--can exercise this authority. No longer will I be able to exercise this power without your participation."

OR

B. "I am giving you authority by way of a power of attorney; as such, we both can exercise this authority whenever we wish. Thus, if I want to exercise this authority without you, I still can. Although I may not choose to do so--although I may wish for you to exercise this authority on your own--I still reserve the right to intervene at My discretion."

You question establish a false premise. I've given you a Biblically base answer to your inquiry. I can't help you further as long as you adhere to the framing and constrains of your questions.

Havie a nice day.

:wave:
 
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