The Atheist's dilemma

[Deidre32]

If a person is a Muslim, they do not have a relationship with God at all.

wow

you speak for ''god'' now?

Then you should have no problem with Christianity! For who would wish to believe they were a wretched sinner hopelessly lost and unable to do anything to earn God's favor?

i am having fond memories all of a sudden of our prior 'debates,' on this topic. ooooh brother. here we go.

I required evidence before I became a Christian and I am also a man of faith so this is just false.

you believe the bible to be evidence as i recall from prior discussions. it's not a factual, historical textbook, though...

I fear God. That is not why I trust Him though. I trust Him because He has proven Himself trustworthy. I trust Him because He loves me so much that He would subject Himself to shame, humiliation, and crucifixion for me.

see, my contention is this. if a god exists, and he may, how do you know he is the one you have found to follow? i say found, because you once didn't believe. so, suppose you gravitated towards Islam, or Judaiam? with all the various religions to 'choose from,' how can one be sure that Christianity is the one, true path that leads to ''God?''

I'm not looking to convince you otherwise, just having a discussion.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

considering that hell is the punishment for those who do not do as you suggest, i'd say that sounds pretty intimidating. like one is being governed. but, you may see it differently. i once did, too.

I do not think about Hell all that much actually.

I see it as necessary as heaven.

 

[Deidre32]

I do not think about Hell all that much actually.

I see it as necessary as heaven.

i believe in neither, and frankly, felt that same way most of my Christian days. i just don't think anyone knows for sure, what will ''happen'' after we die. if anything. seeing that parts of the bible are to be taken literally, and some not, why do we presume any of it is literal?

genesis was once taught as literal truth, until the theory of evo because widely accepted in society. it is now taught as a metaphor, in many many christian denominations. so, did God's word simply poof, change? or was it always untrue, passed off as truth, and then the church found itself in a precarious situation, having evidence supporting the theory of evolution at its front door...it couldn't go on teaching genesis as truth. because the timeline of the earth's ''creation'' doesn't match up, etc.

just saying.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

wow

you speak for ''god'' now?

Ahh... now Deidre, surely you know what Jesus said about it.

you believe the bible to be evidence as i recall from prior discussions. it's not a factual, historical textbook, though...

I disagree. But am not going to really argue about it.

see, my contention is this. if a god exists, and he may, how do you know he is the one you have found to follow? i say found, because you once didn't believe. so, suppose you gravitated towards Islam, or Judaiam? with all the various religions to 'choose from,' how can one be sure that Christianity is the one, true path that leads to ''God?''

What does the author of 1 John say?

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 14This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

16If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this. 17All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

18We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19We know that we are of God, and that the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 20And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.



I prayed once that if God was real that He would save me from myself and help me to be the person I knew I should be but was powerless to be. It was Christ that revealed Himself to me, not the man Muhammad.

That is how I know.

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. - Jesus Christ

 

[Deidre32]

Ahh... now Deidre, surely you know what Jesus said about it.

So the bible states. But, should he have existed, and historians believe there is a strong chance he did, how do we know he said those things? Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, a man sent by God. Just not the final one. So...what to think? I don't believe in Islam, either. But, just saying...if one is a devout Muslim, they will think vastly different than you, and will feel that they too, have the right path to God.

I prayed once that if God was real that He would save me from myself and help me to be the person I knew I should be but was powerless to be. It was Christ that revealed Himself to me, not the man Muhammad.

That is how I know.

"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. - Jesus Christ

The strength always was inside of you. So much so, you knew to ask for help. You knew you had a problem. Not for me to judge your personal experience, but to say that you or we are powerless...then, you are in essence contradicting your earlier statement that god doesn't govern our lives? if you are powerless to change your life, then...how do the two statements match up?

you will most likely say...well, i have free will. and i chose to reach out to god for help, for i couldn't change on my own.

truth is, you could change on your own. and most likely, you did. but your faith REQUIRES you to pay homage to a god ...

and that is what religion and faith is all about.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

how do we know he said those things? Islam teaches that Jesus was a prophet, a man sent by God. Just not the final one. So...what to think? I don't believe in Islam, either. But, just saying...if one is a devout Muslim, they will think vastly different than you, and will feel that they too, have the right path to God.

I spent upwards of 4 years studying intensely the doctrines of Islam and the Quran. I spent upwards of 4 years in close proximity to and lived with Muslims. I am probably the most knowledgeable here regarding Islam. I now see that God had me where I was then so that I might be able to help someone now.

The Quran claims that it is word for word the Inspired word of God dictated to Muhammad. Arabic in Islam is considered the only "pure" language. In the Quran, it is written that Jesus never really died, but that it appeared that He did and that He will be the one to return bodily at the end of the age. Jesus will, not Muhammad.

Now speaking simply, we can show Islam to be false by appealing to historical facts such as the crucifixion of Jesus. This is considered to be historical fact. This alone demonstrates the Quran is not the word of God. Thus Islam is false.

If one is a devout Muslim they will think differently. I know, I have talked with many.

I have also talked with many people about how I am bi-racial and not Hispanic. They may think differently but when they do, I smile and simply say, you are wrong, I am bi-racial black and white.

You see, like matters of everyday life where certain things are subject to investigation, I can speak the truth and if someone disagrees, I can legitimately say they are wrong and go on my merry way. Claims of whether or not Jesus was crucified fall into the same category. He either was or He was not. The evidence leads us to the conclusion that He was. So the Quran is false.

Islam is dissolved that easily.

The strength always was inside of you. So much so, you knew to ask for help. You knew you had a problem. Not for me to judge your personal experience, but to say that you or we are powerless...then, you are in essence contradicting your earlier statement that god doesn't govern our lives? if you are powerless to change your life, then...how do the two statements match up?

I wish you had known me years ago. I really do.

The strength was never inside of me. God empowering me to live a holy life does not mean that He forces me to live a Holy life. It just means that He gives me the means to do so. I still have the choice of whether or not to die to myself and utilize said means.

truth is, you could change on your own. and most likely, you did. but your faith REQUIRES you to pay homage to a god ...

and that is what religion and faith is all about.

To an extent I could change on my own. I could have substituted one habit for another, one addiction for another, one vice for another, but I could not change my heart. That would have been forever the same had not God created in me a clean heart.

 

[BL2KTN]

I am probably the most knowledgeable here regarding Islam. I now see that God had me where I was then so that I might be able to help someone now.

Your self-importance is beyond almost anything I've ever seen. We have Muslims and people with Muslim families on these forums... they post regularly.

Wow.

 

[Deidre32]

I appreciate your posts, Jeremy.

Wouldn't it be weird if in the end, we find out that we're both wrong?

Never know...

;=)

 

[Aldebaran]

Your self-importance is beyond almost anything I've ever seen. We have Muslims and people with Muslim families on these forums... they post regularly.

Wow.

Don't be so quick to jump in to attack Jeremy. He's obviously trying to help Deidre. I really don't think he has any bad motivations for what he's saying.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Your self-importance is beyond almost anything I've ever seen. We have Muslims and people with Muslim families on these forums... they post regularly.

Wow.

I know we have Muslims on this forum. I have talked with them. As I stated I lived in a community of Muslims for upwards of four years so yea like I said, out of all the Christians here I am probably the most knowledgeable regarding Islam. Thanks.

 

[Deidre32]

But, it's arrogant to assume that Muslims don't have a relationship with God, as you do. You can believe as you wish, but it is only a belief. Faith isn't built on facts, for if it were, there would be no need to have faith at all.

I don't have faith that 2+2 = 4. It just does. Without me accepting it or denying it...it just IS.

That's the difference between faith and facts. Faith isn't built on facts. If it were, there'd only be one religion. One 'version' of a god, for all to adhere to. But, as we can see, there's isn't.

Think as you wish, Jeremy.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But, it's arrogant to assume that Muslims don't have a relationship with God, as you do. You can believe as you wish, but it is only a belief. Faith isn't built on facts, for if it were, there would be no need to have faith at all.

I don't have faith that 2+2 = 4. It just does. Without me accepting it or denying it...it just IS.

That's the difference between faith and facts. Faith isn't built on facts. If it were, there'd only be one religion. One 'version' of a god, for all to adhere to. But, as we can see, there's isn't.

Think as you wish, Jeremy.

Deidre,

So..........we can have 'faith,' even if Jesus never really existed, because faith isn't built on facts? [ HOOOOOWWWWWEEE! Boghossian's gone to seed!]

Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that faith is not merely, or primarily, based on facts? Of course, then again, the very word "based" indicates an assumption of Foundationalism, a notion that, like Logical Positivism, can't bake it's own philosophical bread. But who needs epistemology anymore?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

But, it's arrogant to assume that Muslims don't have a relationship with God, as you do. You can believe as you wish, but it is only a belief. Faith isn't built on facts, for if it were, there would be no need to have faith at all.

I don't have faith that 2+2 = 4. It just does. Without me accepting it or denying it...it just IS.

That's the difference between faith and facts. Faith isn't built on facts. If it were, there'd only be one religion. One 'version' of a god, for all to adhere to. But, as we can see, there's isn't.

Think as you wish, Jeremy.

My faith is built on facts. I cannot speak for others. But one can speak the truth in an arrogant fashion.

I realize that there are many sincere people who are Muslims who really believe that it is God they worship.

But being sincere does not mean what you believe in is true.

I have some C.S. Lewis books I will send you if you want to read them.

Ultimately, you cannot know God unless you know Him for yourself. I pray He reveal Himself to you if that is what you want.

 

[BL2KTN]

What facts?

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

What facts?

Crucifixion of Jesus, Empty tomb, post mortem appearances of Jesus, rapid spread of Christianity from Jerusalem under immense persecution, changed life, you know, the usual.

 

[Aldebaran]

I don't have faith that 2+2 = 4. It just does. Without me accepting it or denying it...it just IS.

I think that's also something Christians say as well, "God doesn't exist based on whether or not I have faith in Him. He just IS".

What we as humans have to do is live our lives in line with reality or we're not being honest with ourselves. Deidre, you once told me that you would love it if the existence of God could be proven to you. I tend to think that's why you are here; hoping that His existence will one day be proven. I'm not sure what type of proof you'd need, but other people I've talked to come up with silly ideas that tell me they aren't serious.

So, what if people in biblical times were able in the spirit of God to make predictions that came true in modern times? There's no way those people could have seen what life is like today. Technology is in some ways today beyond what was being dreamed of 30 years ago. But 3,000 years ago? That would be hard to believe for some "sheep herders" living out in the desert on the other side of the world, assuming they just came up with it themselves.

 

[Deidre32]

I think that's also something Christians say as well, "God doesn't exist based on whether or not I have faith in Him. He just IS".

What we as humans have to do is live our lives in line with reality or we're not being honest with ourselves. Deidre, you once told me that you would love it if the existence of God could be proven to you. I tend to think that's why you are here; hoping that His existence will one day be proven. I'm not sure what type of proof you'd need, but other people I've talked to come up with silly ideas that tell me they aren't serious.

So, what if people in biblical times were able in the spirit of God to make predictions that came true in modern times? There's no way those people could have seen what life is like today. Technology is in some ways today beyond what was being dreamed of 30 years ago. But 3,000 years ago? That would be hard to believe for some "sheep herders" living out in the desert on the other side of the world, assuming they just came up with it themselves.

Hello

Um, not so much that I need proof of a god's existence, as much as it would be nice if religious people would admit that what they believe isn't based on facts or evidence. Objective evidence I mean, where anyone ...anywhere...at any time, could agree upon it.

A feeling, a 'revelation,' supposed prayers being answers, are not evidence. Those things all stem from one's faith. I once had that faith. But, perhaps what happened for me, is that faith was not enough for me to continue on. I needed more. There, that's as honest as it gets. I just needed more than mere faith, to continue believing things that didn't seem factual. But, rather hearsay at best, and maybe at worst...lies. Who knows.

Understand something. Abandoning Christianity was very hard for me, but where I'm at now, I feel it was the only path that naturally I had to take, if that makes sense. I don't struggle to disbelieve. I think there came a point, where I struggled TO believe.

It just would be nice for religious people to admit that their faith is just that, their own personal beliefs. When I was a Christian, I told people this, when I 'witnessed.' I didn't try to convince people that the Bible was based on facts. Because it's honestly not. lol

I think we are going to go around in circles, yes? Are we dizzy yet?

You are a kind person, halfsaved, to care enough to want to share all of this with me as you have been.

 

[Jeremy E Walker]

Hello

Um, not so much that I need proof of a god's existence, as much as it would be nice if religious people would admit that what they believe isn't based on facts or evidence. Objective evidence I mean, where anyone ...anywhere...at any time, could agree upon it.

A feeling, a 'revelation,' supposed prayers being answers, are not evidence. Those things all stem from one's faith. I once had that faith. But, perhaps what happened for me, is that faith was not enough for me to continue on. I needed more. There, that's as honest as it gets. I just needed more than mere faith, to continue believing things that didn't seem factual. But, rather hearsay at best, and maybe at worst...lies. Who knows.

Understand something. Abandoning Christianity was very hard for me, but where I'm at now, I feel it was the only path that naturally I had to take, if that makes sense. I don't struggle to disbelieve. I think there came a point, where I struggled TO believe.

It just would be nice for religious people to admit that their faith is just that, their own personal beliefs. When I was a Christian, I told people this, when I 'witnessed.' I didn't try to convince people that the Bible was based on facts. Because it's honestly not. lol

I think we are going to go around in circles, yes? Are we dizzy yet?

You are a kind person, halfsaved, to care enough to want to share all of this with me as you have been.

So the book of the Acts of the Apostles is not based on fact? How did you come to that conclusion?

How about the Gospel according to Luke?

What evidence do you have that these accounts are not historically accurate?

 

[BL2KTN]

Crucifixion of Jesus, Empty tomb, post mortem appearances of Jesus, rapid spread of Christianity from Jerusalem under immense persecution, changed life, you know, the usual.

Very few of those are facts. Yes, Yeshua was likely crucified. Yes, it is likely that the tomb in which he was placed eventually became empty. No, there is no good evidence that Yeshua appeared physically and alive to individuals after he had died. Christianity did not experience a rapid growth out of Jerusalem... it grew out of gentile cities. Your life being changed is a result of your own psychology.

 

[BL2KTN]

Crucifixion of Jesus, Empty tomb, post mortem appearances of Jesus, rapid spread of Christianity from Jerusalem under immense persecution, changed life, you know, the usual.

Very few of those are facts. Yes, Yeshua was likely crucified. Yes, it is likely that the tomb in which he was placed eventually became empty. No, there is no good evidence that Yeshua appeared physically and alive to individuals after he had died. Christianity did not experience a rapid growth out of Jerusalem... it grew out of gentile cities. Your life being changed is a result of your own psychology.