The Assumption of Mary

DiligentlySeekingGod · Feb 18, 2011

laconicstudent said:
I'm afraid I think you are interpreting Scripture incorrectly in this case.

I had a feeling you would say something like that. However, I don't see Scripture through the lens of Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I believe as Scripture clearly teaches what the Church really is and not what a church tries to define it as. As John Wesley once said, "In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church." Please elaborate how you think I'm misinterpreting each of the Scriptures I cited. Perhaps you could answer using Scripture rather than sources from the Orthodox or Catholic Church.

laconicstudent · Feb 18, 2011

DiligentlySeekingGod said:
I had a feeling you would say something like that. However, I don't see Scripture through the lens of Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I believe as Scripture clearly teaches what the Church really is and not what a church tries to define it as. As John Wesley once said, "In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church." Please elaborate how you think I'm misinterpreting each of the Scriptures I cited. Perhaps you could answer using Scripture rather than sources from the Orthodox or Catholic Church.

You are correct: You don't view Scripture through the lense of Orthodoxy or Catholicism, you view it through the lens of whatever your denomination is.

Please don't try and say you alone are objective. We all know that isn't the case.

Studious One · Feb 18, 2011

DiligentlySeekingGod said:
The Church is not a building or a particular church or denomination. According to Scripture, the Universal Church is the body of Christall those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 12:13). It is made up of all believers in Christ from the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2) until His return. In Scripture, the Church (all those who are truly saved) is called one body in Christ in Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 1:17, 1 Corinthians 12:27, Ephesians 4:12; 6:23, Colossians 1:24, and Hebrews 13:3.

They don't accept Scripture. They only accept that which was handed down from their ECF.

The ECF take precedence over God's Word. It means nothing to them.

Dylan Michael · Feb 18, 2011

DiligentlySeekingGod said:
I had a feeling you would say something like that. However, I don't see Scripture through the lens of Orthodoxy or Catholicism. I believe as Scripture clearly teaches what the Church really is and not what a church tries to define it as. As John Wesley once said, "In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church." Please elaborate how you think I'm misinterpreting each of the Scriptures I cited. Perhaps you could answer using Scripture rather than sources from the Orthodox or Catholic Church.

No, the bible is a product of the Church, not Vice Verse.

Rhamiel · Feb 18, 2011

Studious One said:
They don't accept Scripture. They only accept that which was handed down from their ECF.

The ECF take precedence over God's Word. It means nothing to them.

How dare you
how dare you tell me what the Bible means to ME

Studious One · Feb 18, 2011

Qoheleth85 said:
How dare you
how dare you tell me what the Bible means to ME

I ask again, do you serve Mary by the recitation of the Rosary as she asked at Fatima?

If so, you must reject the first commandment. Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God and Him only shalt thou serve.

Do you teach the perpetual virginity of Mary?

If so, you reject the Word of God that tells us Joseph had sexual relations with Mary after the Christ child was born.

Do you believe Mary to be CoRedeemer, CoMediatrix, and Advocate as the Catholic church teaches?

If so, you reject the Word of God that teaches we have only One Mediator between God and man, that Christ is our Redeemer, that Christ is our Advocate.

I really don't have to tell you what the Bible means to you... your words reveal what it means to you already.

laconicstudent · Feb 18, 2011

Studious One said:
I really don't have to tell you what the Bible means to you... your words reveal what it means to you already.

I agree, his words when he tells you that you are wrong show us that you clearly are out of line.

DArceri · Feb 18, 2011

Dylan Michael said:
No, the bible is a product of the Church, not Vice Verse.

Scripture is the Voice of the Husband that speaks to the Bride. A good Bride will obey the Voice of the Husband.

laconicstudent · Feb 18, 2011

DArceri said:
Scripture is the Voice of the Husband that speaks to the Bride. A good Bride will obey the Voice of the Husband.

And the Bride is the one that defines for us what is the "Voice of the Husband".

DArceri · Feb 18, 2011

laconicstudent said:
And the Bride is the one that defines for us what is the "Voice of the Husband".

Again... Scripture is the VOICE THAT SPEAKS to the BRIDE. The Bride must SUBMIT to the Voice. Check out the Seven Churches in the Book of Revelation.

laconicstudent · Feb 18, 2011

DArceri said:
Again... Scripture is the VOICE THAT SPEAKS to the BRIDE. The Bride must SUBMIT to the Voice. Check out the Seven Churches in the Book of Revelation.

No, that is Jesus, not Scripture in that portion of Revelation. Your little gender role analogy is also rather unpalatable. Also, it fails since it was the Church that determined what was and what was not Scripture.

DArceri · Feb 18, 2011

laconicstudent said:
No, that is Jesus, not Scripture in that portion of Revelation. Your little gender role analogy is also rather unpalatable. Also, it fails since it was the Church that determined what was and what was not Scripture.

Jesus is the BRIDEGROOM my friend... The Church is the BRIDE.

laconicstudent · Feb 19, 2011

DArceri said:
Jesus is the BRIDEGROOM my friend... The Church is the BRIDE.

I know, why do you keep insisting on this point as if it is intrinsically meaningful?

DArceri · Feb 19, 2011

laconicstudent said:
I know, why do you keep insisting on this point as if it is intrinsically meaningful?

Again, the Bride submits to the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM...Not vice versa.... It doesn't matter how the bible was put together, it matters if you 'HEAR' (understand) HIS VOICE. The VOICE and WILL of God is revealed to us through scripture via the Holy Spirit. The Church's job is to preach His Word. The HOLY SPIRIT does the rest.

laconicstudent · Feb 19, 2011

DArceri said:
Again, the Bride submits to the VOICE OF THE BRIDEGROOM...Not vice versa.... It doesn't matter how the bible was put together, it matters if you 'HEAR' (understand) HIS VOICE. The VOICE and WILL of God is revealed to us through scripture via the Holy Spirit. The Church's job is to preach His Word. The HOLY SPIRIT does the rest.

Ok great, the Church preaches Scripture. We agree.

sheina · Feb 19, 2011

Dylan Michael said:
No, the bible is a product of the Church, not Vice Verse.

The Bible is NOT a product of the Church! The Bible is the product of God given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit...not the Church.

addo · Feb 19, 2011

laconicstudent said:
Wrong.

"And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

--Matthew 16:18

The bold part doesn't mean the Church won't err (I mean in doctrines and such) but that she will resurrect at His coming. It's simply that gates of hell (aka grave) will not hold inside the Church beacuse Jesus has the figurative keys to it.

If you want me to develop my point further, tell me.

laconicstudent · Feb 19, 2011

sheina said:
The Bible is NOT a product of the Church! The Bible is the product of God given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit...not the Church.

Except it clearly is, since the Church canonized Scripture.

MarkRohfrietsch · Feb 19, 2011

addo said:
The bold part doesn't mean the Church won't err (I mean in doctrines and such) but that she will resurrect at His coming. It's simply that gates of hell (aka grave) will not hold inside the Church beacuse Jesus has the figurative keys to it.

If you want me to develop my point further, tell me.

When one reads the whole Biblical naritive surrounding the Confession of ST. Peter, one sees that the "Keys" are given to the Church. While I do not dissagree with what you have written, these "Keys" extend much further; not only to the forgivness and retention of sin, but also that the Chuch may govern herself to maintain purity of doctrine, and order.

laconicstudent said:
Except it clearly is, since the Church canonized Scripture.

Again, this seems like a narrow view also. The Church canonized Scripture based on the authority given to the Church by our Lord. The Church's canonization of Scripture, through this authority, is the work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gave the Church and the ECF's the gift of discernment regarding the Canon; the fact that this Canon of Scripture persists to this day is a good indication that they (or should I say, the Holy Spirit working through them) got it right!

The only time we see this fail, is when individuals and denominations, through reason, or looking at Scripture through the eyes of secular humanists start to pick and choose or look to other sources to give context to Scripture. Doing such is outside the authority given to the church; when such happens, it dishonors the Holy Spirit, dishonoring God, IMO.

Zeek · Feb 19, 2011

laconicstudent said:
Originally Posted by sheina

The Bible is NOT a product of the Church! The Bible is the product of God given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit...not the Church.

laconicstudent said:

Except it clearly is, since the Church canonized Scripture.

Click to expand...

The Bible was eventually collated by a group of Believers, scholars and men in authority...what they did was agree on what was being used in the surrounding communities of Believers as inspired by the Holy Ghost, and what wasn't....their task was merely to confirm what had been the tradition and accepted norm for several hundred years.

It is ironic, that such emphasis is placed upon their role, almost as if it gives the Catholic body of Believers the authority to dictate what Scripture means, simply because under the guidence of the Holy Spirit some of their number at that time were obedient to the direction of the Holy Spirit.

It is even more ironic that many of their number will not subject themselves to the very words that they claim to hold so much store by...that is why in these discussions and arguments the vast majority of Catholics and Orthodox will not use Scripture...simply because it would mean having to submit to it.

All that happens is that the old counter-argument gets wheeled out, and tries to prove that Peter had these miraculous keys that give him and his spiritual descendants (read Rome) sole and permanent authority, and that all other Believers have no solid foundation for their faith, as they simply believe whatever takes their fancy. I would think that just a cursory glance at the history of the Catholic Church and the sins committed at the highest levels over the ages, would be ample demonstration, that perfection does not lie within their gates.

The Assumption of Mary

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