The Arminian Interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't even fit Arminianism

intojoy · Aug 21, 2013

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Let's suppose your view for arguments sake, that the purpose of the atonement was to render all men savable. By that view, Christ died for nobody in particular, it cannot be said the atonement is substitutional, and therefore no wrath satisfied on behalf of individuals (penal), and therefore the application of atonement hinges conditionally upon man's choices. It should be obvious most of mankind has chosen to reject the Christ of Christianity. Why would God render all men savable knowing the overwhelming vast majority of mankind would reject Christ? What you are really saying is that in the purpose of the atonement God WILLING the purpose to render all men savable, which is the exact view I addressed, which you seem to think does not apply, in the thwarting of the sovereign will of God.

That might be more logical but what's important is not is it logical but is it biblical?

Not all of God's desires were included in his decreed will.

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live? ......
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live. (Ezekiel 18:23, 32 ASV)

God desired that the wicked turn and live but it was not part of the decree.

who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4 ASV)

Again His desire yet not part of the decree.

sdowney717 · Aug 21, 2013

Matt 15

A Gentile Shows Her Faith

21 Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.

23 But He answered her not a word.

And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, Send her away, for she cries out after us.

24 But He answered and said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, Lord, help me!

26 But He answered and said, It is not good to take the childrens bread and throw it to the little dogs.

27 And she said, Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters table.

28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire. And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

It was only her faith that moved the LORD to heal her daughter.

Jesus says He was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

In Heb 2, scripture says he only helps those who are Abraham's' seed. No mention is made here of unbelievers receiving any help from the LORD, this because they are not children of the promise, they are not of His sheep.

Abraham's seed are children of God's promise to Abraham.
True children of Abraham believe in the LORD and his Son by a granted gifting of faith from the Father.

6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, In Isaac your seed shall be called. 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.

Heb 2

13 And again:

I will put My trust in Him.[d]
And again:

Here am I and the children whom God has given Me.[e]
14 Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

16 For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham.

guuila · Aug 21, 2013

I'm still wondering if a synergist is ever going to explain to us why he/she believes God is waiting for the non-elect to reach repentance.

Clare73 · Aug 21, 2013

intojoy said:
That might be more logical but what's important is not is it logical but is it biblical?

Not all of God's desires were included in his decreed will.

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? saith the Lord Jehovah; and not rather that he should return from his way, and live? ......
For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord Jehovah: wherefore turn yourselves, and live. (Ezekiel 18:23, 32 ASV)

God desired that the wicked turn and live but it was not part of the decree.

who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4 ASV)

Again His desire yet not part of the decree.

I think what you are referencing is God's revealed will and God's secret will (Dt 29:29).

We see it in operation in the case of Pharoah.

God's revealed will to Pharoah was "Let my people go." (Ex 5:1)

However, before God ever sent Moses to Pharaoh (Ex 4:21), he told Moses that he would harden Pharaoh's heart
so that he would not let them go.

God's revealed will to Pharaoh to let his people go was not the same as his secret will (secret to Pharaoh, not to Moses) to harden his heart so that he would not let them go.

God's revealed will that he would have all men to be saved (a gospel call to all, to which only the elect will respond),
is not his secret will to save only the elect.

The seeming contradictions between the proof Scriptures of "Armenianism" and "Calvinism" are simply the differences between God's revealed will, which we are to obey, and his secret will, which governs his actions, both wills being seen in the case of Pharaoh.

"Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

'Who has know the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?'

'Who has ever given to God that God should repay him?'

For in him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen."
(Ro 11:33-36)

sdowney717 · Aug 21, 2013

Clare73 said:
I think what you are referencing is God's revealed will and God's secret will (Dt 29:29).

We see it in operation in the case of Pharoah.

God's revealed will to Pharoah was "Let my people go (Ex 5:1)."

However, before God ever sent Moses to Pharaoh (Ex 4:21), he told Moses that he would harden Pharaoh's heart
so that we would not let them go.

God's revealed will to Pharaoh to let his people go was not the same as his secret will (secret to Pharaoh, not to Moses) to harden his heart so that he would not let the people go.

God's revealed will that he would have all men to be saved (a gospel call to all, to which only the elect will respond),
is not his secret will to save only the elect.

The seeming contradictions between the proof Scriptures of "Armenianism" and "Calvinism" are simply the differences between God's revealed will that all are to obey, and his secret will which governs his actions, as in the case of Pharaoh.

"Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
'Who has know the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?'
'Who has ever given to God that God should repay him?'
For in him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen."
(Ro 11:33-36)

Paul talks about the wisdom of God for the mature believer.
Milk versus meat! The immature believer drinks only milk, meat is for the mature believer, a message of wisdom among the mature which is revealed by the Spirit. Infants and the immature will cry and scream about this hidden wisdom of God. But those who are noble will search the scriptures and believe what God teaches about spiritual realities with spirit-taught words.

This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.

Gods Wisdom Revealed by the Spirit

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we declare Gods wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:

What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived
the things God has prepared for those who love him
10 these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who knows a persons thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[c]

intojoy · Aug 21, 2013

Clare73 said:
I think what you are referencing is God's revealed will and God's secret will (Dt 29:29).

We see it in operation in the case of Pharoah.

God's revealed will to Pharoah was "Let my people go (Ex 5:1)."

However, before God ever sent Moses to Pharaoh (Ex 4:21), he told Moses that he would harden Pharaoh's heart
so that he would not let them go.

God's revealed will to Pharaoh to let his people go was not the same as his secret will (secret to Pharaoh, not to Moses) to harden his heart so that he would not let the people go.

God's revealed will that he would have all men to be saved (a gospel call to all, to which only the elect will respond),
is not his secret will to save only the elect.

The seeming contradictions between the proof Scriptures of "Armenianism" and "Calvinism" are simply the differences between God's revealed will, which all are to obey, and his secret will, which governs his actions, both seen in the case of Pharaoh.

"Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
'Who has know the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?'
'Who has ever given to God that God should repay him?'
For in him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen."
(Ro 11:33-36)

However the bible says pharaoh was already hardened before God hardened him

intojoy · Aug 21, 2013

sdowney717 said:
Paul talks about the wisdom of God for the mature believer.
Milk versus meat! The immature believer drinks only milk, meat is for the mature believer, a message of wisdom among the mature which is revealed by the Spirit. Infants and the immature will cry and scream about this hidden wisdom of God. But those who are noble will search the scriptures and believe what God teaches about spiritual realities with spirit-taught words.

Soteriology = milkokogy

Skala · Aug 21, 2013

intojoy said:
Yes the you = the elect
All = non elect

So for no reason whatsoever, right in the middle of a sentence, for no grammatical or contextual reason, Peter shifts his attention from the elect to the non elect?

I don't buy it.

"To the inmates on death row,

The warden is not slack concerning his duty as some count slackness, but he's righteous toward you, not willing that any should escape, but that all should be executed."

In this letter to the inmates, does the 'all' suddenly refer to everyone else in the world too. The warden wants to execute people who aren't even prisoners, too?

Skala · Aug 21, 2013

intojoy said:
However the bible says pharaoh was already hardened before God hardened him

Actually it says that it was God's intention and purpose from the beginning for Pharaoh to be hardened.

So whether Pharaoh hardened himself or God hardened him is irrelevant, because both are only serving God's grand design and purpose.

The fact is, if God wants someone hardened, they will be. End of story. God's decree is absolute. He is God Almighty

Your free will can't save you.

intojoy · Aug 21, 2013

Skala said:
So for no reason whatsoever, right in the middle of a sentence, for no grammatical or contextual reason, Peter shifts his attention from the elect to the non elect?

I don't buy it.

"To the inmates on death row,

The warden is not slack concerning his duty as some count slackness, but he's righteous toward you, not willing that any should escape, but that all should be executed."

In this letter to the inmates, does the 'all' suddenly refer to everyone else in the world too. The warden wants to execute people who aren't even prisoners, too?

Ok I looked it over again. I can see how you can think Peter is saying that the mockers of verse one are pointing out that believers still die and are saying its the same from the beginning and that Peter is refuting them by saying that God isn't willing that believers perish but is forbearing so that others can repent. However it can be read that God forbears in order that the mockers can repent without violating the thought of the sentence. I'll think about that, thx.

Clare73 · Aug 21, 2013

intojoy said:
However the bible says pharaoh was already hardened before God hardened him

The first mention of hardening Pharaoh's heart is before God sends Moses to him.

Keep in mind that all hearts are hardened until they are softened by the grace of God.

All God has to do to "harden" hearts is simply to withhold his softening grace.

elman · Aug 21, 2013

Skala said:
Actually it says that it was God's intention and purpose from the beginning for Pharaoh to be hardened.

So whether Pharaoh hardened himself or God hardened him is irrelevant, because both are only serving God's grand design and purpose.

The fact is, if God wants someone hardened, they will be. End of story. God's decree is absolute. He is God Almighty

Your free will can't save you.

My use of free will to obey the command of Jesus can allow Jesus to save me. The fact is God does not sin and does not lie and does not do evil, so when you sin it is not God doing it, but you doing it.

guuila · Aug 21, 2013

elman said:
My use of free will to obey the command of Jesus can allow Jesus to save me. The fact is God does not sin and does not lie and does not do evil, so when you sin it is not God doing it, but you doing it.

Thanks for your contribution.

intojoy · Aug 21, 2013

Skala said:
Actually it says that it was God's intention and purpose from the beginning for Pharaoh to be hardened.

So whether Pharaoh hardened himself or God hardened him is irrelevant, because both are only serving God's grand design and purpose.

The fact is, if God wants someone hardened, they will be. End of story. God's decree is absolute. He is God Almighty

Your free will can't save you.

He gave me divine enablement to believe/respond in faith

SeventhValley · Aug 21, 2013

Titus 2:11-14
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
11 For the saving grace of God was manifested
to all men,
12 teaching us, that denying the impiety and
the worldly desires, soberly and righteously
and piously we may live in the present age,
13 waiting for the blessed hope and
manifestation of the glory of our great God
and Saviour Jesus Christ,
14 who did give himself for us, that he might
ransom us from all lawlessness, and might
purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of
good works;

Apologetic_Warrior · Aug 21, 2013

Clare73 said:
I think what you are referencing is God's revealed will and God's secret will (Dt 29:29).

We see it in operation in the case of Pharoah.

God's revealed will to Pharoah was "Let my people go (Ex 5:1)."

However, before God ever sent Moses to Pharaoh (Ex 4:21), he told Moses that he would harden Pharaoh's heart
so that he would not let them go.

God's revealed will to Pharaoh to let his people go was not the same as his secret will (secret to Pharaoh, not to Moses) to harden his heart so that he would not let the people go.

God's revealed will that he would have all men to be saved (a gospel call to all, to which only the elect will respond),
is not his secret will to save only the elect.

The seeming contradictions between the proof Scriptures of "Armenianism" and "Calvinism" are simply the differences between God's revealed will, which all are to obey, and his secret will, which governs his actions, both seen in the case of Pharaoh.

"Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

'Who has know the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?'

'Who has ever given to God that God should repay him?'

For in him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen."
(Ro 11:33-36)

Thank you thank you, I had other terminology in mind, prescriptive, permissive, etc. but I think your response is better than mine would have been.

intojoy · Aug 21, 2013

God's sovereignty can be limited as long as God puts the limitation.

guuila · Aug 21, 2013

SeventhValley said:
Titus 2:11-14
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
11 For the saving grace of God was manifested
to all men,
12 teaching us, that denying the impiety and
the worldly desires, soberly and righteously
and piously we may live in the present age,
13 waiting for the blessed hope and
manifestation of the glory of our great God
and Saviour Jesus Christ,
14 who did give himself for us, that he might
ransom us from all lawlessness, and might
purify to himself a peculiar people, zealous of
good works;

Great verses. Did you have a point?

Apologetic_Warrior · Aug 21, 2013

intojoy said:
God's sovereignty can be limited as long as God puts the limitation.

Don't have to be a non-Calvinist to agree with that, the question is how, when, where, those self-imposed limitations be. For example, I believe in the Hypostatic Union.

intojoy · Aug 21, 2013

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Don't have to be a non-Calvinist to agree with that, the question is how, when, where, those self-imposed limitations be. For example, I believe in the Hypostatic Union.

Can God destroy the earth with a flood again? Is He capable of doing so? Yes
Will He destroy the earth with a flood again? No
Because He said He wouldn't do it that way again.
His sovereign will has been limited by Himself.

The Arminian Interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 doesn't even fit Arminianism

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