the apocalypse

I believe it to be intellectually, emotionally and spiritually unhealthy to live your life in constant expectation of the "end times". It is far better to live your life in such a way as to make this a better world, not just today but into the far distant future.

victorinus said:

that is all interesting -
can you name the two beasts?

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Yes, But not by their personal names - like John Doe, if that is what you mean. But I think shortly, I will be able to name by name the first beast - once the EU goes to the ten leader form of government.

The first beast has a dual meaning - one is that it is the Roman empire of the end times, which has a composite body of the other three historic empires - because with 42 months left in the 7 years will have gained control of the terrorities of those empires. Basically, the oil rich territories of the middle east.

Specifically, the Roman Empire of the end times is the EU, which will be allied with what we would call the West, i.e. the United States and Canada.

The second meaning of the first beast, and more importantly is that of an individual - who starts as the little horn, the last of Julio-Claudian 7 kings, who becomes leader of the EU. It is not a straight path to becoming the beast in Revelation 13. We can't start in Revelation, because that is like picking up a book and start reading halfway through it.

First he becomes leader of the EU, not long from now. Right now resentment against Islam is building in Europe. That will give him the political support of the people - that when Gog/Magog threatens Israel. He will attempt to thwart it from happening by positioning his EU army in Greece - from Daniel 8:9 - under the pretenses of keeping peace in the region.

Gog/Magog takes place anyway, and afterward, he rushes into the region to grab up all the oil in the region (the carrot for the ten kings. The prince who shall come.

The Jews will think he is their messiah, (he has to be a Jew, his mother will be a Jew) God has sent them, since all of their enemies have been wiped out ,and since he intended to stave off the invasion of Gog/Magog. The rider on the white horse in Revelation 6.

He confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant, overseeing it being read to the nation of Israel from the temple mount, which is in the bible a requirement to be done on a 7 year cycle. The 7 years begin.

He is anointed King of Israel - by the false prophet (who will probably claim to be Elijah), the second beast in Revelation 13.

About 3years- 4 months into the false messianic age, said false messiah Antichrist, commits the transgression of desolation, claiming to have achieved God-hood. The Jews mortified, will disown hims as their King of Israel. Ending his stint as the Antichrist. To be in the Antichrist role, he has to be as the King of Israel (instead of Jesus, the rightful King of Israel)

God has the person killed for his audacious act (the wounded head in Revelation 13). And then in disdain for him, God kicks the person out of the grave, bringing him back to life. (the healed wounded head in Revelation 13). Brought back to life, the person becomes possessed by the unclean spirit of the beast currently in the bottomless pit - becoming the beast himself. And that's him, in Revelation 13, ruling over the world for 42 months.

Straightshot said:

The prophets are all silent with regard for the last 2000 years and none of the events of this period of histoey are a part of the scope of Bible prophecy

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Just from memory / reading decades ago/
I thought A LOT of reformers showed A LOT from SCRIPTURE regarding A LOT of this ?

victorinus said:

are you saying the first beast was mortally wounded with the seventh king?
name the beast, that is all you have to do

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Not the Roman Empire wounded with the seventh king - if that is what you mean.

But the person in Revelation 13, who becomes the beast (a person) to control the earth with 42 months left before Jesus returns.

Before becoming the beast, that person is the 7th king of the Roman Empire of the Julio Claudian blood line. As the 7th king. he is killed, and brought back to life to be the 8th king, possessed by the unclean spirit of the beast currently in bottomless (which is somewhat confusing because that person is most likely nimrod).

So what we have is someone who starts as leader of the EU, the 7th Julio Claudian bloodline; but his mother is a Jew, making him a Jew as well.

He then becomes the Antichrist, the king of Israel. And stops being the Antichrist, the king of Israel, when he claims to have achieved god-hood.

He will then be killed. Brought back to life, everyone thinking his previous claim of achieving god- hood as true, and the ten leaders of the EU, pledge their EU kingdom to him. Making him the 8th of the Julio-Claudian kings - having also been king 7 before hand.

victorinus said:

how can you discuss the seven heads if you don't know what the first beast is?

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Okay go to Daniel 7:17, the beast are said to be kingdoms. It is also said that the four beast are four kings (Daniel . A dualistic meaning.

I wrote that I do know what the first beast is.

1. the end times Roman Empire
2. the person, Mr. 666, which the false prophet has an image made of the first beast, the man who was mortally wounded but was healed.


14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.


The heads are 7 kings. Not 7 kingdoms.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

victorinus said:

why would you think the beast is a person?
in daniel it is clear that the beasts are empires

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They are also four kings.

Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

victorinus, back in my post #12, I said to you that you need to master the understanding of the crowns, no crowns, different in Revelation 12, 13, 17.

The reason is because those hold the story that you are looking for. Of all those books you referenced which of them explains the crowns/no crowns why they are different in each of those three chapters 12, 13, 17?

victorinus said:

babylon the great - constantinople -
rider of the white horse - constantine -
rider of the red horse - mohammed -
rider of the black horse - marx -
the first beast - the roman empire -
the second beast - islam -
the seven heads - the seven dynasties of the roman empire -
the ten horns - the ten islamic dynasties -
the thousand years - the byzantine empire -
the three johns - john the baptist and two more johns -
the two witnesses - church and state -
-
this is twenty years of research -
will discuss the results -
will present the books used -
looking forward to discussing all aspects of the apocalypse -
I chose not to use the Historicist Only tag because I want to include all in this dialogue

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This is just... wrong. Where you get Constantine, Mohammed, and Marx is beyond me and makes absolutely no sense. It looks like you're just plugging stuff in wherever it seems to fit and ending up with a big mess that doesn't adhere to each other in the whole model.

victorinus said:

keep going to daniel 7:23

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23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

Yes, the beasts also represent kingdoms. Didn't I say dualistic meaning?

The first beast of Revelation 13 has a dualistic meaning, but also Revelation 13 is in the middle of the seven years. Don't you get that? It is like starting in the middle of book. Start before the seven years begin. What chapter?

I am encouraging you to look at the crowns/no crowns. You gotta understand the three chapters overall.

victorinus said:

constantine is the third most significant person who ever lived -
he made the world safe for christians -
islam and communism are the biggest threats to christianity -
it is not a mess if it all fits -
you will see that it does

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All of those history books and you seem to not know how paganism & Christianity were mixed during the time of Constantine. Even his own conversion is questionable. He made the world "safer" for Christians by paganizing Christianity.

None of it fits because you're cherry picking Scripture and trying to stuff things from that mountain of history books into certain verses and disregarding the rest of the Scripture pertaining to those verses.

victorinus said:

no

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Yes, I did. In post 29. And in post 22.... "The first beast has a dual meaning"

Victorinus, here is what I want you to do. When you read chapter 13, make a mental note, as the heading of that chapter.

THIS CHAPTER IS ABOUT THE LAST 42 MONTHS OF THE 7 YEARS

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And when you read chapter 12, make a mental note, as the heading of that chapter

THIS CHAPTER IS ABOUT THE FULL SEVEN YEARS
the first five verses are a historic preamble to identify the woman as Israel.

_________________________________________________________________________


And when you read chapter 17, make a mental note, as the heading of that chapter

THIS CHAPTER IS ABOUT THE PRESENT TIME BACK IN JOHN's DAY, 1ST CENTURY

It looks forward to the end times, but the status of the crowns/no crowns on the beast in that chapter are relavent to John's day.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

NO CROWNS. Because in the 1st century, the prophecy of the 7 kings was unfulfilled. And the prophecy of the ten kings ruling with the beast was unfulfilled.

Now, if you would go to Chapter 12, and tell me what you think of the crowns/no crowns in that chapter twelve.

victorinus said:

you should read eusebius church history -
he makes constantine sound like the second coming

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So too does the false prophet the antichrist.

victorinus said:

very little of what I am presenting is unique

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No one said it is unique; quite the contrary. >>

Waterwerx said:

All of those history books and you seem to not know how paganism & Christianity were mixed during the time of Constantine. Even his own conversion is questionable. He made the world "safer" for Christians by paganizing Christianity.
None of it fits because you're cherry picking Scripture and trying to stuff things from that mountain of history books into certain verses and disregarding the rest of the Scripture pertaining to those verses.

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victorinus said:

constantine is the third most significant person who ever lived -
he made the world safe for christians -
islam and communism are the biggest threats to christianity -
i....

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As shown throughout history,
constantine and those with him were a much much bigger and ongoing through today threat and caused more damage to Christianity than communism and islam together ever were or did(so far).