• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

The Antimasonic Propaganda Machine

JamesJD

Regular Member
Jun 29, 2007
381
0
✟23,011.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Propaganda machine at its lowest depths, and you have bought it hook, liine, and sinker.

History is propaganda?! I learn alot from you, mason, but believe none of it. Pike himself wrote concerning the KKK, and held high rank in it; and you claim he had nothing to do with KKK? Whitewasher!
The charges of treason and war crimes against civilians aren't "proPAGANda" either, it's history. He was pardoned, of course, being the top US freemason then, but he was charged.
Pike was the face of freemasonry then, at least. With all the war crimes that go unpunished under the masonic UN flag, it apparently still is the face of freemasonry. The UN popularized the term "ethnic cleansing"; lipstick on the pig of depopulation; Darfur, Rwanda, Cambodia under Pol Pot, up to a million dead Iraqis, Bosnia, Pinochet, on and on. Sharon was pardoned for ordering the Sabra-Shatilla massacres, because of his diplomatic immunity, which never applied to crimes against humanity before then.
The trib will condemn the masonic world disorder of murderous corruption.
 
Upvote 0

JamesJD

Regular Member
Jun 29, 2007
381
0
✟23,011.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'm sorry, that's a loaded websearch. Lots of crazy people put lots of garbage on the internet. Search "Islam is true" and you'll get about as much "proof" of that as what you're saying.



The historical priests of Baal never made candles out of the fat of Christian babies. They pretty much got out of the whole human sacrifice stuff by the time Christianity came about.

And you're completely distorting what LeVay's book says (more likely, you're reading from a source that intentionally spun). He describes what common Black Mass myths where he mentions that the Inquisition believed the fat of unbaptised babies were used to make the candles in witchcraft ceremonies, and in another part he mentioned the use of candles, but the two are never connected.



But that doesn't make it Baalism, unless you're using the word Baalism in some innaccurate reference to all false religion as Baalism.



Crowley claimed to be a freemason, dressed up like what he thought a freemason looked like, but never actually joined an offical lodge, and completely distorted stuff to his own ends.

As for Baalism, if you're talking "general false religion," then, yes, he was a follower of a false religion. If you're talking about the historical/Biblical Baal, Crowley didn't worship Baal, nor did he seek to imitate the cult of Baal.



Bullocks. I'm simply pointing out he's didn't actually sacrifice to Baal. I refered to him as a syncretist, not a saint.



Especially because you pulled that pig out from where the sun don't shine and I'm still sitting comfortably.



He died in bed from a respiratory infection, more than likely. You're just spouting off an urban legend, which is a fairly good indication that you don't actually do any real research on at least these subjects, if not others.



You're talking Moloch worship with the 'fire pit in the belly' part, and Moloch was a specific Baal figure worshipped primarily by the Phoenicians.

As for Bohemian grove, what does that have to do with Freemasonry? You're engaging in an association fallacy. "Because some F are part of B, and B is X, F is X" is faulty thinking. Applying the same logic, Rev Wayne and I are having to dictate this to some out of town folks because "some South Carolinians are illiterate, we're South Carolinians, therefore, we're illiterate."

Being a Freemason and being a member of Bohemian Grove are not the same thing. They are completely unrelated.



1: Pike wasn't some sort of Masonic pope or something like that. He wrote mostly about Scottish Rite freemasonry in the Southeastern part of the US.

2: Pike used the name Lucifer in the archaic sense of "morningstar" (cross reference with 1 Peter 1:19 and Rev 22:16-17), not in reference to a demonic figure. Pike was making a reference to Christ. He sets Lucifer in opposition to Adonis, a name used by Hellenistic pagans to refer to a dying-and-rising deity who was a "god of this world" and had opposite of Christ in birth and death.



Freemasonry wasn't started by Pike. You've got this misconception that he's the



You don't get it: if the Grand Lodge of England doesn't approve of it, it's a cheap imitation of Freemasonry, not the real thing. Even if Crowley had everything completely accurate and did not twist the meanings of symbols about to his own ends, he still would not have been a Freemason.



Whup-dee-doo.



Because it's quasi-masonic, a member of that would not be allowed into a regular lodge unless they completely started from stratch.

As for the 33rd degree, it's just the 32nd with a pat on the back. The only sequential degrees for Freemasonry are the first, second, and third. That's all it takes to be a freemason. Degrees 4-33 are part of Scottish rite freemasonry, are parallel (not above) with the third degree, and don't actually add on to anything. You actually only have to have degree 4 and a few others before you can go for the 32nd, you don't have to do them in order.

Your treatment of the 33rd degree is a clear indication that you really don't know how Freemasonry is structured. If I'm capable of telling you you need to do more homework regarding freemasonry, it's a pretty bad sign.



Again, whup-dee-doo. UGLE doesn't acknowledge them, so they're not actualy part of freemasonry. You might as well bash Christianity because the Moonies are a cult. You're aiming for the wrong target.

The child sacrificing Baal/Moloch rituals are mentioned repeatedly in the Bible. David speaks of avenging the Babylonian tradition in Psalm 137:8-9 KJV or 136 other versions. I can provide all of them, if you like.
An altar of baby sacrifice was found in Turkey with hundreds of dead baby corpses stored there. A Moloch fire altar yet stands near Tunisia.
You try to distance freemasonry from the masonic branches of it, not officially recognized so defenders of masonry like you can say Ordo Templi Orientis is merely based on freemasonry, or P2 Lodge is only quasi masonic.
Recruiting freemasons at this site is in bad taste, masons. Freemasonry is connected to the Black Pope, Jesuit general Klovenbach, so, all the secret societies of the Jesuits like Knights of Malta ARE related to freemasonry, as the ILLuminati secret societies are related to freemasonry, like the P2 Lodge is related to freemasonry, & Ordo Templi Orientis; officially recognized or not.
I think the real Christians here can discern the truth, with such tactics of denial of any connection to the other tentacles of the masonic beast. http://www.ralphepperson.com
I don't buy there's no relation whatsoever, though all secret societies have similar oaths, of secrecy & loyalty to other members. Even B'nai B'rith website admits "crossover" with freemasonry. Birds of a feather all. Here's about B'nai B'rith behind the push to make free speech illegal; http://www.rense.com/general68/adll.htm
Birds of a feather systematically eliminating constitutional rights there.
 
Upvote 0

Abbadon

Self Bias Resistor - goin' commando in a cassock!
Jan 26, 2005
6,022
335
38
Bible belt, unfortunatly
✟30,412.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
JamesSD said:
and you claim he had nothing to do with KKK? Whitewasher!

Where does he say that? As far as I see, he doesn't.

Quit spouting lies about what people say.

JamesSD said:
He was pardoned, of course, being the top US freemason
JamesSD said:
Pike was the face of freemasonry then, at least.

You still don't get it -- Your average freemason doesn't really give a hoot about Pike. He's not the end-all-be-all of Freemasonry, and he isn't the archetypal Freemason.

It'd also be nice if you provided some proof that he was let off just because he was a Freemason.

JamesSD said:
With all the war crimes that go unpunished under the masonic UN flag, it apparently still is the face of freemasonry.

The UN has nothing to do with Freemasonry outside paranoid neo-gnostic conspiracy theories.

JamesSD said:
The trib will condemn the masonic world disorder of murderous corruption.

Do you honestly believe that there's some Archonic secret world order that somehow has the amazing Archonic super-powers do deceive the average Hylic person but not people with special gnosis such as yourself?


Here's the story behind freemasonry: back in the middle ages, people arranged themselves in trade guilds so they wouldn't get into price wars and end up loosing all thier money, and also to insure that the merchandice was of decent quality. The guilds had various handshakes and secret words to let other guild members know whether or not they really belonged to the guild, and it was common in those days to make promises like "cross my heart and hope to die." On holidays, different guilds would perform plays relating to the Bible to some extent: the tailors guild might do a play about the tailor that made Joseph's coat of many colors, the carpenter's guild might do a play about the building of Noah's Ark, and the stone worker's guild did a play about Hiram (the guy that helped build Solomon's temple). It dealt with Hiram refusing to give up trade secrets to some apprentices didn't have enough on-the-job training, to the point where the apprentices kill the guy. Later on, some of the older folks in the stone workers (or stone masons) guild decided that they could use the play as a nice life lesson for the younger members. Since these stone masons were building castles, churches, and all sorts of important buildings, people really started to like the stone mason's guild and wanted to join without actually being stone masons. If they were a free person, they often got in. They decided that they'd "build" the community by doing different kinds of charity work. As time passed, guilds weren't really done as often as they used to, but people still joined the free masons.

That's how Freemasonry came about. You can ask a Freemason to tell you everything but the handshakes and passwords.

When the conflict between Protestanism and Catholicism was getting at it's worst, would-be Protestants living in Catholic countries often joined Freemasonry hoping they could use it as a surrogate Protestant church (even though Freemasonry is not a religion and not supposed to be). This caused some trouble between Freemasonry and Catholicism, and today Freemasonry has gotten over it. At this time, a fellow named Leo Taxil (who was really not a nice person) tried to join the freemasons and wasn't allowed in. In anger, he lied to the Catholic church, saying that he wanted to convert, and then proceeded to lie to them about Freemasonry. This is pretty much the main starting point of the conspiracy theory you believe in.

Some occultists, being found of knowing special "facts" started to claim that they know the truth about freemasonry, often bringing in the Knights Templar, the Hashashim, or the (originally fictional) Rosicrucians, or some other group that wasn't actually related to the Freemasons.

In 1776, a fellow named Adam Weishaupt admired the organization of the Jesuits and the symbolism of the Freemasons, but didn't like any of thier ideas (he wanted to get rid of organized religion and governements in favor of deism and 'enlightened' despotism). He started a group combining the organization of the Jesuits and a twisted verstion of Masonic symbolism to advance his own personal goals. This group was called the Illuminati (which is a pretty general name used by various groups that think they've got some sort of special gnosis). He tried to have this group infiltrate the government, church, and freemasonry, and all of those groups found out, threw out the infiltrators, and the government executed or imprisoned (for life) the Illuminati for trying to overthrow the government.

In these times, and others, people want to think all the problems in the world are the deliberate fault of some other group of people seperate from themselves. In early 20th century Germany and Russia, and the modern day middle east, the Jews were blamed. In ancient Greece, the Gnostics blamed the "Archons." Today, Scientologists blame Xenu and his R-5 brainwashing. This often combines with an unconsious pride, and the paranoid believes that he is capable of taking on the world, when he's really just another cog in a machine with no function, no purpose, and noone in charge.

Today, there are many that want to see patterns where there are none, want to see secrets that don't exist, and want to believe that they are somehow better than the rest of the human race and are capable of resisting, (if not fighting) some sort of world-wide menace that has the superhuman capabilities of decieving and controlling everyone. Many of these neo-Gnostic world-schemes, especially in the west, falsely blame Freemasonry for no good reason. They're not Archons, they're just a bunch of guys who know a secret handshake and password and are willing to spill the beans on everything else.
 
Upvote 0

Abbadon

Self Bias Resistor - goin' commando in a cassock!
Jan 26, 2005
6,022
335
38
Bible belt, unfortunatly
✟30,412.00
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
JamesSD said:
The child sacrificing Baal/Moloch rituals are mentioned repeatedly in the Bible.

Indeed, child sacrifice to Moloch is mentioned. Moloch is a specific Baal though, not all Baalim are Moloch.

JamesSD said:
An altar of baby sacrifice was found in Turkey with hundreds of dead baby corpses stored there. A Moloch fire altar yet stands near Tunisia.

As I said, Moloch was primarily worshipped by the Phoenicians, and the Phoenicians had colonies in Anatolia and North Africa.

JamesSD said:
You try to distance freemasonry from the masonic branches of it, not officially recognized so defenders of masonry like you can say Ordo Templi Orientis is merely based on freemasonry, or P2 Lodge is only quasi masonic.

So, because the Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons call themselves Christian, does that mean that they are Christian? No. If the Grand Lodge of England says "Oh, no, they're not with us," a pseudo-masonic is not an official branch of Freemasonry. You're welcome to bash them all you want, they aren't actually freemasons.

JamesSD said:
Freemasonry is connected to the Black Pope, Jesuit general Klovenbach, so, all the secret societies of the Jesuits like Knights of Malta ARE related to freemasonry

I shouldn't have even bothered going through the trouble of typing my last post if you honestly believe that Catholicism tolerates Freemasonry.

JamesSD said:
as the ILLuminati secret societies are related to freemasonry, like the P2 Lodge is related to freemasonry, & Ordo Templi Orientis; officially recognized or not.

Whup-dee-doodily-darn-doo-doo if they're related -- they're not part of Freemasonry. It's not like Diet Coca-cola and actual Coca-cola, it's more like Pepsi hypothetically selling a product called "diet Coca-Cola," it's not actually Coca-Cola, it's just called diet Coca-Cola.

JamesSD said:
I think the real Christians here can discern the truth

So, in otherwords, you're saying -- outright -- that Rev Wayne and I are not Christians, is that it?

JamesSD said:
Even B'nai B'rith website admits "crossover" with freemasonry.

Whup-dee-doo. BB is Jewish, religious Jews are allowed to join Freemasonry, and ethnic Jews that are not atheists are allowed to join as well.

JamesSD said:
Here's about B'nai B'rith behind the push to make free speech illegal;

They're just trying to eliminate anti-semitic language. I don't necessarily agree with it (I think people should realize that anti-semitism is wrong), I don't see how that's completely eliminating free speech.

And you're once again engaging in the association fallacy. Here is an article on the association fallacy. Applying your faulty logic ("because some B are F, and some B oppose S, all F oppose S") to Christianity -- because some people that call themselves Christians are not Christians, and all non-Christians are unsaved, all Christians are unsaved. This obviously isn't true, Christians are saved, and your reasoning is at best faulty.
 
Upvote 0

JamesJD

Regular Member
Jun 29, 2007
381
0
✟23,011.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Where does he say that? As far as I see, he doesn't.

Quit spouting lies about what people say.




You still don't get it -- Your average freemason doesn't really give a hoot about Pike. He's not the end-all-be-all of Freemasonry, and he isn't the archetypal Freemason.

It'd also be nice if you provided some proof that he was let off just because he was a Freemason.



The UN has nothing to do with Freemasonry outside paranoid neo-gnostic conspiracy theories.



Do you honestly believe that there's some Archonic secret world order that somehow has the amazing Archonic super-powers do deceive the average Hylic person but not people with special gnosis such as yourself?


Here's the story behind freemasonry: back in the middle ages, people arranged themselves in trade guilds so they wouldn't get into price wars and end up loosing all thier money, and also to insure that the merchandice was of decent quality. The guilds had various handshakes and secret words to let other guild members know whether or not they really belonged to the guild, and it was common in those days to make promises like "cross my heart and hope to die." On holidays, different guilds would perform plays relating to the Bible to some extent: the tailors guild might do a play about the tailor that made Joseph's coat of many colors, the carpenter's guild might do a play about the building of Noah's Ark, and the stone worker's guild did a play about Hiram (the guy that helped build Solomon's temple). It dealt with Hiram refusing to give up trade secrets to some apprentices didn't have enough on-the-job training, to the point where the apprentices kill the guy. Later on, some of the older folks in the stone workers (or stone masons) guild decided that they could use the play as a nice life lesson for the younger members. Since these stone masons were building castles, churches, and all sorts of important buildings, people really started to like the stone mason's guild and wanted to join without actually being stone masons. If they were a free person, they often got in. They decided that they'd "build" the community by doing different kinds of charity work. As time passed, guilds weren't really done as often as they used to, but people still joined the free masons.

That's how Freemasonry came about. You can ask a Freemason to tell you everything but the handshakes and passwords.

When the conflict between Protestanism and Catholicism was getting at it's worst, would-be Protestants living in Catholic countries often joined Freemasonry hoping they could use it as a surrogate Protestant church (even though Freemasonry is not a religion and not supposed to be). This caused some trouble between Freemasonry and Catholicism, and today Freemasonry has gotten over it. At this time, a fellow named Leo Taxil (who was really not a nice person) tried to join the freemasons and wasn't allowed in. In anger, he lied to the Catholic church, saying that he wanted to convert, and then proceeded to lie to them about Freemasonry. This is pretty much the main starting point of the conspiracy theory you believe in.

Some occultists, being found of knowing special "facts" started to claim that they know the truth about freemasonry, often bringing in the Knights Templar, the Hashashim, or the (originally fictional) Rosicrucians, or some other group that wasn't actually related to the Freemasons.

In 1776, a fellow named Adam Weishaupt admired the organization of the Jesuits and the symbolism of the Freemasons, but didn't like any of thier ideas (he wanted to get rid of organized religion and governements in favor of deism and 'enlightened' despotism). He started a group combining the organization of the Jesuits and a twisted verstion of Masonic symbolism to advance his own personal goals. This group was called the Illuminati (which is a pretty general name used by various groups that think they've got some sort of special gnosis). He tried to have this group infiltrate the government, church, and freemasonry, and all of those groups found out, threw out the infiltrators, and the government executed or imprisoned (for life) the Illuminati for trying to overthrow the government.

In these times, and others, people want to think all the problems in the world are the deliberate fault of some other group of people seperate from themselves. In early 20th century Germany and Russia, and the modern day middle east, the Jews were blamed. In ancient Greece, the Gnostics blamed the "Archons." Today, Scientologists blame Xenu and his R-5 brainwashing. This often combines with an unconsious pride, and the paranoid believes that he is capable of taking on the world, when he's really just another cog in a machine with no function, no purpose, and noone in charge.

Today, there are many that want to see patterns where there are none, want to see secrets that don't exist, and want to believe that they are somehow better than the rest of the human race and are capable of resisting, (if not fighting) some sort of world-wide menace that has the superhuman capabilities of decieving and controlling everyone. Many of these neo-Gnostic world-schemes, especially in the west, falsely blame Freemasonry for no good reason. They're not Archons, they're just a bunch of guys who know a secret handshake and password and are willing to spill the beans on everything else.

He said that the info about Pike was "propaganda" only. But Pike himself wrote about the KKK, which isimplying that Pike never had anything to do with KKK. Who's the deceivers here?
Nobody gives a hoot how freemasonry was formed, only what the ILLuminati & Jesuit & freemasons secret societies are doing to ruin this nation economically, militarily, morally, while abolishing rights at will in violation of Amendment 10.
Get an argument. Ralph Epperson reveals, from 33rd° masons, that the global conspiracy is no imaginary paranoid delusion. All the secret societies are related. The Club of Rome, the Bilderburg group, the secret societies, and quasimasonic branches are all real, are they not? Just twiddling thumbs while they take oaths under pain of torture not to violate, I suppose. That's kooky. Nothing to keep secret; just playing like children, I suppose? NOT!
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think the fact that you toss all these accusations around, most of them bogus, and only just now get around to asking this question, is pretty revealing in itself.

And I can talk about whatever I wish, as soon as someone with something to talk about shows up.
 
Upvote 0

JamesJD

Regular Member
Jun 29, 2007
381
0
✟23,011.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I think the fact that you toss all these accusations around, most of them bogus, and only just now get around to asking this question, is pretty revealing in itself.

And I can talk about whatever I wish, as soon as someone with something to talk about shows up.

Accusations?! You refuse to state your degree and rank in all 3 masonic propaganda recruitment threads, which isn't against any oath that I know of. Obviously you're not a 33rd°, not the authority on the secrets you say don't exist, yet have admitted to taking oath. You're not even an authority on freemasonry since you need proof about everything.

"THOU SHALT NOT FORSWEAR THYSELF, but unto the Lord shalt perform thine OATHS'-Matthew 5:33.
"friendship with the world is enmity with God"-James 4.
You serve freemasonry, your master, at this site; What OATH have you sworn unto the Lord?
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Accusations?! You refuse to state your degree and rank in all 3 masonic propaganda recruitment threads, which isn't against any oath that I know of.
That's ANTI-propaganda, the Anti-Mason kind. And it's getting easier by the minute to see why I call them antimasons and not antimasonry as so many seem to wish they were.

Obviously you're not a 33rd°,
I am a 3rd degree Master Mason, I've never claimed any different. Your pursuit of this line of attack is disingenuous, as I have consistently said throughout the thread that I have not pursued any of the so-called "higher degrees." Albion himself has also consistently pointed out that the Masons who have posted here, for the most part, have not progressed beyond Blue Degree Masonry. But it is even MORE disingenuous of you, a non-Mason, to decide you are more qualified than any Mason here to speak about Masonry, whether 33rd or any other degree.

not the authority on the secrets you say don't exist
Well, THAT one's easy enough to back up. The very fact that you claim to know them pretty well corroborates the fact that they are not secret--unless you have totally discarded the dictionary definition of what it means to be "secret."

You're not even an authority on freemasonry since you need proof about everything.
Nice try, Sherlock, but shifting the burden of proof is not admissible as "proof." YOU are the one coming here making the accusations, if you can't back them up, fine, but don't try blaming me for your inadequate and insufficient and erroneous "google it" form of "proof."


"THOU SHALT NOT FORSWEAR THYSELF, but unto the Lord shalt perform thine OATHS'-Matthew 5:33.
Incomplete quote of the verse again. In fact, simply quoting this part of it says, "You shall not take back your oaths, but shall perform them unto the Lord."

Exactly how does stating that support anything you claim?
"friendship with the world is enmity with God"-James 4.
Already refuted that one with 1 Corinthians 5:10. Sorry you missed it, but repeating it makes it no more valid than before.

You serve freemasonry, your master, at this site; What OATH have you sworn unto the Lord?
I serve my Lord Jesus Christ. When I was researching Freemasonry and had come to the conclusion there was no inherent conflict with my Christian faith, I still had not managed to take that last step and join. At that point, when wrestling with it brought no clear-cut answers, I simply put it in the Lord's hands and said when He gave me the assurance that it truly was He who was guiding in this process, beyond any doubts whatsoever, then I would join. When He did so, the process was complete and I joined at His leading.

So it's not a matter of swearing an oath unto the Lord on the matter of Freemasonry, but it certainly was and is a matter of joining only at His direct leading and guidance and the assurance given through the Holy Spirit.

Apparently not everyone can come to that point, and some go the totally opposite direction and rail against it. My advice to anyone would be the same as Masons told me before I joined, if you can't join in complete assurance of conscience that it does not conflict with your Christian faith, by all means don't join.

But don't try to force your opinions on me or anyone else, not everyone sees this matter as you do, and we are allowed liberty of conscience on such matters as are not provably at variance with Christian teachings.
 
Upvote 0

JamesJD

Regular Member
Jun 29, 2007
381
0
✟23,011.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I am a 3rd degree Master Mason, I've never claimed any different. Your pursuit of this line of attack is disingenuous, as I have consistently said throughout the thread that I have not pursued any of the so-called "higher degrees." Albion himself has also consistently pointed out that the Masons who have posted here, for the most part, have not progressed beyond Blue Degree Masonry. But it is even MORE disingenuous of you, a non-Mason, to decide you are more qualified than any Mason here to speak about Masonry, whether 33rd or any other degree. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Then you cannot possibly be privy to all the secrets you say you're sworn about, but are non-existent. You deny that Scottish Rite is masonic? You don't even know the higher secrets, like, initiation rituals & NSA immunity from prosecution (oops, said it). Ex ONI officer William Cooper exposed masonic control of DIA/CIA/NSA/ONI, then was shot dead by gov.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well, THAT one's easy enough to back up. The very fact that you claim to know them pretty well corroborates the fact that they are not secret--
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's bearing false witness again, because I never claimed to know all the secrets of 33rd°, but I have studied the secret societies that rule the rotten world of corruption, like the P2 Lodge of the mafia.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Incomplete quote of the verse again. In fact, simply quoting this part of it says, "You shall not take back your oaths, but shall perform them unto the Lord."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The rest of the verse doesn't negate the statement of the Lord at all, & it's not saying don't violate an oath at all, but take no oaths as you bore false witness against the Bible; "Thou shalt not forswear thyself" (IN ADVANCE), "but shall perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, SWEAR NOT AT ALL: neither by heaven, for itis Gods' throne.."-Matthew 5:33-34. So, you claimed that's "out of context"? Exactly in context, I should have included the next verse.

Already refuted that one with 1 Corinthians 5:10. Sorry you missed it, but repeating it makes it no more valid than before.
1 Corinthians 5:10 doesn't contradict me at all...it's the verse before that you ignored, "I wrote unto you in a epistle not to company with fornicators". But you take it as an excuse to join masonry? That's admitting they're fornicators, at least.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I serve my Lord Jesus Christ. When I was researching Freemasonry and had come to the conclusion there was no inherent conflict with my Christian faith, I still had not managed to take that last step and join. At that point, when wrestling with it brought no clear-cut answers, I simply put it in the Lord's hands and said when He gave me the assurance that it truly was He who was guiding in this process, beyond any doubts whatsoever, then I would join. When He did so, the process was complete and I joined at His leading.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
So, the Lord talks to you huh? What does he look like? Or do you just hear voices?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

So it's not a matter of swearing an oath unto the Lord on the matter of Freemasonry, but it certainly was and is a matter of joining only at His direct leading and guidance and the assurance given through the Holy Spirit.

Apparently not everyone can come to that point, and some go the totally opposite direction and rail against it. My advice to anyone would be the same as Masons told me before I joined, if you can't join in complete assurance of conscience that it does not conflict with your Christian faith, by all means don't join.

If the quotes VS answers didn't show right, it's because I'm experimenting, trying to figure how it works with blue VS white statements.
 
Upvote 0

JamesJD

Regular Member
Jun 29, 2007
381
0
✟23,011.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I am a 3rd degree Master Mason, I've never claimed any different. Your pursuit of this line of attack is disingenuous, as I have consistently said throughout the thread that I have not pursued any of the so-called "higher degrees." Albion himself has also consistently pointed out that the Masons who have posted here, for the most part, have not progressed beyond Blue Degree Masonry. But it is even MORE disingenuous of you, a non-Mason, to decide you are more qualified than any Mason here to speak about Masonry, whether 33rd or any other degree.
Well, THAT one's easy enough to back up. The very fact that you claim to know them pretty well corroborates the fact that they are not secret--unless you have totally discarded the dictionary definition of what it means to be "secret."

Incomplete quote of the verse again. In fact, simply quoting this part of it says, "You shall not take back your oaths, but shall perform them unto the Lord."

Already refuted that one with 1 Corinthians 5:10. Sorry you missed it, but repeating it makes it no more valid than before.


I serve my Lord Jesus Christ. When I was researching Freemasonry and had come to the conclusion there was no inherent conflict with my Christian faith, I still had not managed to take that last step and join. At that point, when wrestling with it brought no clear-cut answers, I simply put it in the Lord's hands and said when He gave me the assurance that it truly was He who was guiding in this process, beyond any doubts whatsoever, then I would join. When He did so, the process was complete and I joined at His leading.

So it's not a matter of swearing an oath unto the Lord on the matter of Freemasonry, but it certainly was and is a matter of joining only at His direct leading and guidance and the assurance given through the Holy Spirit.

Apparently not everyone can come to that point, and some go the totally opposite direction and rail against it. My advice to anyone would be the same as Masons told me before I joined, if you can't join in complete assurance of conscience that it does not conflict with your Christian faith, by all means don't join.

But don't try to force your opinions on me or anyone else, not everyone sees this matter as you do, and we are allowed liberty of conscience on such matters as are not provably at variance with Christian teachings.

1: Your not even advanced enough to claim there are no secrets, or that you're sworn to secrecy about nothing?
2: I never claimed to know all the secrets of organized corruption (freemasonry), as you bore false witness again. I know my own experiences with organized crime P2 Lodge 33rd° masons, and secrets they slipped, like masons getting job preference by lodge info on the job application; (selling your soul to freemasonry for success).
3: the deceiver implied that Matt 5:33 is taken out of context & means something different, that one shouldn't reneg on oaths is the meaning. So here's proof that's deception; "Ye have heard that it was said by themof old time, THOU SHALT NOT FORSWEAR THYSELF (in advance), but shalt perform unto the Lord thine OATHS: But I say unto you, SWEAR NOT AT ALL; neither by heaven for it is the throne of God"-Matthew 5:33-34. I should've included the rest of the statement the BACKS UP what I posted further.
4: What does 1 Corinthians 5:10 have to do with joining freemasonry? It's at best, an admission by you that freemasons are fornicator covetous extortioner idolaters. It doesn't say join them in sin, buddy, but in the world, we must deal with evil.
5: So, the Lord speaks to you "directly" huh? Do you hear voices or is it ESP with the Lord that told you to become a freemason? Do you see him also? No voice would ever make me join freemasons, because I know freemasons I hate.
6: Again you say there's no provable conflict with Christianity & freemasonry, while ignoring all the Bible verses that DO PROVE a conflict. James 4:4, Matthew 5:33-34, Ephesians 6:12, Isaiah 24:21-22, Psalm 110:5-6 KJV or 109 other versions, James 2:6, Acts 4:26, Rev 19:11/19 & 17:18.
"whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God"-James 4:4.
"THOU SHALT NOT FORSWEAR THYSELF"-Matt 5:33 "SWEAR NOT AT ALL"-Matt 5:34.
"against powers, against the RULERS of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places"- Ephesians 6:12... http://www.infowars.com/bg1.html
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
1: Your not even advanced enough to claim there are no secrets, or that you're sworn to secrecy about nothing?

Don't take my word for it:

Miguel C. Gonzalez Sr., 77, of Brownsville is a 33rd degree Mason, the highest possible degree in the Scottish Rite. The 32nd degree can be achieved rather quickly with study and dedication, but the 33rd degree is only bestowed to honor a life of service.
According to popular myths, the secrets of the universe are offered to 33rd degree Masons.
“We have no secrets,” Gonzalez said. “Everything is written; you can find them in libraries.”
Other myths persist thanks to novels and movies like “From Hell” that show the Masons as an evil secret society, but Masons say the new movie “National Treasure” helps correct that.
“(‘National Treasure’) is actually a good introduction to who we are,” said Joe Rodriguez, former grand master of the Brownsville lodge. “It gives you a good history of the principals of Freemasonry, and of the founding fathers, who were Masons.”
http://freemasonrywatch.org/brownsville.html


It’s even from one of your favorite sources, too.

2: I never claimed to know all the secrets of organized corruption (freemasonry), as you bore false witness again. I know my own experiences with organized crime P2 Lodge 33rd° masons,

P2 is not Masonry, they were expelled, and I don’t care what degree anyone connected with them professes, they are not Masons who remain in connection with any P2. Your definitions are fundamentally flawed, and your knowledge of Freemasonry is superficial, leading you to serious errors in judgment.

3: the deceiver implied that Matt 5:33 is taken out of context & means something different, that one shouldn't reneg on oaths is the meaning. So here's proof that's deception; "Ye have heard that it was said by themof old time, THOU SHALT NOT FORSWEAR THYSELF (in advance),


AH, so THERE’S your error. This is not the common prefix "for" or "fore," which might carry the meaning you suggest. Let me show you what’s wrong with your understanding here:

      1. To renounce or repudiate under oath.
      2. To renounce seriously.
    1. To disavow under oath; deny.
    2. To make (oneself) guilty of perjury.
    v.intr.
    To swear falsely; commit perjury.
“Forswear” does not mean to swear “in advance.” Forswearing means failing to follow through on what was pledged. Your whole accusation apparently hinges on an incorrect definition.

I should've included the rest of the statement the BACKS UP what I posted further.

No it doesn’t. From Barnes’ Notes on this verse:

It appears, however, from this passage, as well as from the ancient writings of the Jewish Rabbins, that while they professedly adhered to the law, they had introduced a number of oaths in common conversation, and oaths which they by no means considered as binding. For example, they would swear by the temple, by the head, by heaven, by the earth. So long as they kept from swearing by the name Jehovah, and so long as they observed the oaths publicly taken, they seemed to consider all others as allowable, and allowedly broken. This is the abuse which Christ wished to correct. It was the practice of swearing in common conversation, and especially swearing by created things. To do this, he said that they were mistaken in their views of the sacredness of such oaths. They were very closely connected with God; and to trifle with them was a species of trifling with God. Heaven is his throne; the earth his footstool; Jerusalem his peculiar abode; the head was made by him, and was so much under his control, that we could not make one hair white or black. To swear by these things, therefore, was to treat irreverently objects created by God; and could not be without guilt.

Our Saviour here evidently had no reference to judicial oaths, or oaths taken in a court of justice. It was merely the foolish and wicked habit of swearing in private conversation; of swearing on every occasion, and by everything, that he condemned. This he does condemn in a most unqualified manner. He himself, however, did not refuse to take an oath in a court of law, Matthew 26:63,64.

Exactly what I’ve been telling you all along, it was the “swearing by,” which was a reflection of a practice which drained all meaning out of the sacredness of oaths. And as Barnes says, even Jesus answered in court under oath at His own trial.


4: What does 1 Corinthians 5:10 have to do with joining freemasonry?

What does ANY Scripture have to do with it? Nothing, it didn’t exist when the words were written.

You might try addressing the issue that was being addressed, which was, your quote of James 4 and not having “friendship with the world.” Your erroneous interpretation of that has consistently been, that Masons are blameworthy for associating with those not of the Christian faith. The verse in its context reads:

I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

In other words, the only way to do what you INSIST we have to do, Paul says, would mean we would have to leave this world. What he’s saying is, contact with all sorts of people is unavoidable.

5: So, the Lord speaks to you "directly" huh? Do you hear voices or is it ESP with the Lord that told you to become a freemason? Do you see him also?


Where did I say anything like that? Why do you make stuff up as if I said it, are you running short on material for your endless string of accusations?

You might as well attack every Christian believer for ever believing they could receive an answer to any prayer. How do people know when they receive guidance from God? Why pray to God for guidance at all, if, as you suggest, we are not capable of receiving it?

6: Again you say there's no provable conflict with Christianity & freemasonry, while ignoring all the Bible verses that DO PROVE a conflict. James 4:4, Matthew 5:33-34, Ephesians 6:12,

False again. Saying I have ignored them is not true, as I pointed out in my last post. I have answered your accusations at every turn, especially when you have tried to suggest Bible verses that you think support your claims. I will proceed to do so again, on the ones where you have given any indication why you feel they apply. For those which simply list a reference as support with none of the verse cited or any comment offered, naturally I cannot comment until I see your interpretation of them. I could look them up myself, but all I would have in doing so would be my own understanding of the verse. To respond properly, therefore, cite verse reference and give your interpretation, since so far, your interpretations have been the problem and not the verses themselves.

"whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God"-James 4:4.

You have not shown this at all. You have TRIED to use it in relation to the idea that some Masons are from other faiths. I have consistently replied from 1 Corinthians 5:10, which says the only way you can avoid such relationships would be to leave this world, i.e., those relationships are unavoidable as long as we are in this world.

"THOU SHALT NOT FORSWEAR THYSELF"-Matt 5:33 "SWEAR NOT AT ALL"-Matt 5:34.

I’ve already stated the response to this, and repeated it, and elaborated further on it in this post, in answer to your comments under #3. Jesus was not forbidding the taking of any kind of oath at all, He was speaking specifically to the Jewish practice of swearing “BY” things.

Jesus himself gave testimony UNDER OATH, Matt. 26:63-64. Paul himself took a vow (Acts 18:18). Jesus clearly does not prohibit the simple taking of a vow.

You can lay this one to rest anytime now, you have no basis for it anymore, it has been refuted enough times that anyone here could have grasped it by now.


"against powers, against the RULERS of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places"- Ephesians 6:12...

You are begging the question with this one. You try to back up the claim that Masons are in league with the “rulers of darkness” by citing a Bible verse that speaks of the same thing. It’s circular reasoning, and faulty to the core.

You try to buttress the claim with rantings and ravings about P2, which has nothing to do with Masonry, having been expelled from Masonry over 30 years ago. You cannot even substantiate claims it still exists. Even if you could, you have made no case against Masonry with it, because you still are in MAJOR DENIAL over the plain fact that P2 is NOT Freemasonry and has no connection with Freemasonry whatsoever.

You criticize me because you claim I have no knowledge of 33rd degree Masonry as a 3rd degree MM, and you totally ignore the fact that as a NON-Mason, by your OWN LOGIC, you have even LESS knowledge of such things.

To top off the frivolous case you present, you try to make your case for all of this by quoting from one discredited antimason website and conspiracy theorist after another.

I am tired of wasting my time refuting accusations that are NOT accusations. You have not only presented nothing that has been substantiated, you have now begun repeating the same accusations and pretending they have not been refuted, and you are slowly increasing the length and the irrelevancy of your posts. Enjoy yourself, and maybe you can find someone else who will respond, I’ve certainly gone to the limit in trying to provide responses, but apparently no one else takes you seriously at this point, and I will now join them in their non-response.

Sayonara.
 
Upvote 0

JamesJD

Regular Member
Jun 29, 2007
381
0
✟23,011.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
When an honestly mistaken person learns the Biblical truth, they must either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest.
Apparently he's incapable of understanding the Lord said, in Matt 5:34; "SWEAR NOT AT ALL". He says it's OK anyhow because the ex killer of Christians Paul over-ruled Christ by taking an oath, implied, and calls Christ "refuted".
He's either paid to be here by freemasonry, recruiting, & whitewashing, or he's fulfilling the old traditional rule requiring all freemasons to be involved in ANY religion.
Talking to him is futile, but I hope the careful Christians here discerned what I said VS the masonic party line of denials and distancing & ignoring. Review the masonic threads if you missed the fight. Unfortunately, a Biblical KO doesn't make him stop.
Paul cursed the mockers in the name of Satan in 1 Timothy 1:20. And in 1 Corinthians 5:5, "To deliver such a one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord".
According to father Malachi Martin last interview with Art Bell, the masonic order within the Jesuits has initiation murder rituals into the 33rd°, then he was pushed to his death, of course. He was Vatican attache and exorcist.
My people perish for lack of knowledge"-Hosea 4. If the blade to the chest in the rite gets pushed in, who's to tell? They're all sworn to secrecy & mutual protection at high degrees, which Wayne is not. How many Captain Morgans do we never hear about per day?; over 1000 US citizens per day are permanently missing. Some others meet with terrible accidents, or street murder instead, I'd guess. It's a bad world here, which is coming to the end, rightly so, with diplomatic immunity and NSA immunity protecting the guiltiest.
"I will destroy them with the earth, for the earth is filled with violence through them"-God to Noah: Genesis.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
To the rest of the readers (since JJD is on my ignore list and I have no idea what he may be continuing to say):

The challenge has been made that to take any kind of vow goes against the words of Jesus in Matt. chap. 5. I therefore submit the following:

Many groups (e.g., Anabaptists, Jehovah's Witnesses) have understood these verses absolutely literally and have therefore refused even to take court oaths. Their zeal to conform to Scripture is commendable, but they have probably not interpreted the text very well. 1. The contextual purpose of this passage is to stress the true direction in which the</SPAN> OT points--viz., the importance of truthfulness. Where oaths are not being used evasively and truthfulness is not being threatened, it is not immediately obvious that they require such unqualified abolition. 2. In the Scriptures God himself "swears" (e.g., Gen 9:9-11; Luke 1:68, 73; cf. Ps 16:10 and Acts 2:27-31), not because he sometimes lies, but in order to help men believe (Heb 6:17). The earliest Christians still took oaths, if we may judge from Paul's example (Rom 1:9; 2Cor 1:23; 1Thess 2:5, 10; cf. Philippians 1:8), for much the same reason. Jesus himself testified under oath (26:63-64). (Frank Gaebelein, Expositor&#8217;s Bible Commentary)

Certainly Jesus does not prohibit oaths in a court of justice for he himself answered Caiaphas on oath. Paul made solemn appeals to God (1Th 5:27; 1Co 15:31). Jesus prohibits all forms of profanity. The Jews were past-masters in the art of splitting hairs about allowable and forbidden oaths or forms of profanity just as modern Christians employ a great variety of vernacular "cuss-words" and excuse themselves because they do not use the more flagrant forms. (A.T. Robertson&#8217;s Word Pictures in the New Testament)

Our Lord now proceeds to descant upon the nature of oaths, and to rebuke the Jewish practice of confirming even the most trivial statements, by an oath, considered more or less binding, according to the dignity or value of the person or thing named in the oath. The subject of judicial oaths is not here touched upon, and they are therefore in an error, who draw from this passage any prohibition of an oath before a court of justice, or any lawful judicatory. Nor is profanity the sin against which our Savior inveighs. The object in general was to show the obligations imposed by the ninth commandment to speak the truth on every subject, and to rebuke the habit of taking an oath on every trifling occasion, and making such a distinction in these oaths, that some were regarded of binding force, and others not. As the Jews considered a violation of the sixth and seventh commandments, to consist only in the overt act of killing or committing adultery, so in respect to the ninth, they considered its violation to consist only in swearing falsely by the name of God. They thought it no harm to utter an untruth, and even to confirm it by an oath, provided that this oath was not made in the name of Jehovah. It is necessary to keep this in view, in order to interpret rightly this portion of Christ&#8217;s discourse, which has suffered strange perversions from those who are opposed to judicial oaths, and oftentimes been misunderstood by sincere inquirers after truth.
33. Again, ye have heard, &c. Reference is had to Levit. 9:12; Deut. 23:23. Forswear thyself, i.e. swear falsely or perjure thyself. (John J. Owen, Commentary, Critical, Expository, and Practical, on the Gospel of Matthew)


Reference to (or actual quotation of) a precept of the tradition of the elders then in esteem, not, clearly, to the religious vows concerning which the law gave directions, with object of here dealing with the question of religious vows under the gospel; although Christ&#8217;s not having dealt with these may be very significant.
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
These all have severally one or other mark of divine property in them; and perhaps it may be meant, thou shouldest never dare to bring them into comparison with thy ignorant purposes by mention of the two together in thy light oaths.
Prostituting the earnestness of speech (which should be reserved for employment, of holy names, and serious references, in the business of religious exercises), to occasions of inferior importance, weakens the impression of the one subject of paramount claim, the calling of God and what that requires. A profane exaggeration, that cometh of evil or perhaps literally of the evil one, of common and secular concerns, must dull the ear to due apprehension of the necessity of obeying the call of the gospel. (George Scratton, Commentary on the Gospel According to St. Matthew)

It seems to have been held by the scribes that, unless God was named in an oath, it was no oath at all. Thus the Talmud says (Mishnah, Shebuoth, c. 4) &#8220;If any adjure another by heaven or earth, he is not guilty.&#8221; And the great Maimonides in his commentary on the treatise in question says, &#8220;If any swear by heaven, by earth, by the sun, &c., although the mind of the swearer be under these words to swear by Him who created them, yet this is not an oath. Or if any swear by some of the prophets, or by some of the books of the Scripture, although the sense of the swearer be to swear by Him that sent that prophet, or that gave that book, nevertheless this is not an oath.&#8221; (Edward Byron Nicholson, A New Commentary on the Historical Books of the New Testament)

False swearing and profane and idle use of the name of God are both prohibited by the third commandment (Exod. 20:7). The Hebrew word which answers to in vain may certainly be rendered either way, and probably includes both. Compare Lev. 19:12. False swearing is yet more distinctly forbidden by Numb. 30:2 and Deut. 23:21-23. The false witness received the same punishment which was due for the crime to which he testified. (Deut. 19:16-19.) Neither by heaven. . . nor by the earth. &#8220;The Jews held all those oaths not to be binding in which the sacred name of God did not directly occur.&#8221; --(Alford quoting Philo.) So Lightfoot quoting from the rabbinical books, &#8220;If any one swear by the heavens, by the earth, by the sun, it is not an oath.&#8221; (Lyman Abbott, Illustrated Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew)


It seems clear from reading through several commentaries on the matter, that Jesus was referring directly to a specific teaching and practice in Judaism, upon which there was ample commentary in Rabbinic texts to substantiate it. The practice in Judaism was to soften the oaths by removing the idea of vowing unto God. If they swore by anything else at all, said the scribes and Pharisees, then it technically was not an oath. Thus what had formerly been a "hedge against the law" to prevent them breaking the law, became a justification by which the law was being skirted. Jesus' explanation on the matter to them was that even the swearing by the things they swore by was still swearing before God, because if they swore by the earth, it was God's footstool, if they swore by heaven, it was God's abode, etc.

It is this false swearing that Jesus tells to "not to swear at all," and not the simple idea of swearing such as might take place in an oath of office or in a courtroom. What He was correcting was a false impression that they could separate between what was considered sacred before God and what was not.

In Masonry, the entire thrust of the oaths taken is to make it a matter of sacred solemnity. The candidate is told as he enters that he is considered to be in the presence of God, and to "take due notice thereof, and govern yoursel(f) accordingly." The oath is taken not only before God, but TO God, as evidenced in the wording, "So help me God, keep me ever in my senses to keep and observe the same." The same wording appears there as appears in the courtroom wording. In the courtroom, the Bible is there for the witness to place a hand upon and promise to tell the truth. In lodge, the common practice has traditionally been to take the oath upon the Bible. Much criticism has also centered lately on the allowable exception of having some other book for the obligation, at the request of the candidate.

But the intent goes back to this same issue of solemnity already mentioned. The stated purpose of allowing a candidate to choose another book is that by taking the obligation upon the book of his own religion, the obligation will be considered by the candidate to be more binding upon him. In other words, that which is not considered sacred by the candidate will not be taken as seriously.

Thus it is easy to see that the intent in both the oath and in the allowances accorded those of other faiths, is to preserve the solemnity of what is being said, which is directly applicable to what Jesus has said about the oaths. The whole intent of Jesus' remarks about the oaths dealt with very specific instances in which the oaths were being cheapened.

Also, you will notice that several of these commentaries take notice of the fact that Jesus testified at His own trial under oath. It would be ludicrous to suggest, even though JamesJD has done so, that Jesus would engage in a practice which He has forbidden. It also is ludicrous to be so over-zealous in wishing to win an argument, to go to the lengths that have been gone to in the current debate, of lashing out with derogatory remarks at Paul, a man of God to whom was entrusted the ministry of the Gospel to the Gentiles, who reached most of the known world with the Gospel, who suffered much for his faith, and who is responsible for roughly half the writings of the New Testament.

I stand by what I have said and continue to say on the matter of interpretation of Jesus' comments on oaths: He does not refer to the act of vowing before God; in fact, it is quite the opposite, He denunciates the attempts by the Pharisees to cheapen or lessen the seriousness of such vows. And He testified in court under oath Himself.

Curse me, call me names, call me satanic or demonic all you wish, Mr. JD, but anyone here can clearly see that this is not an interpretation invented by me, nor is it off the mark as you claim. This is just a small representative sample of what I COULD cite here in support of what I have said.

When you get tired of riding high in the saddle and wish to discuss anything without vilification and character assassination, let me know, and I will take your name off my ignore list and consider it. As it stands, your claims based on your interpretation of this verse are not valid.
 
Upvote 0

JamesJD

Regular Member
Jun 29, 2007
381
0
✟23,011.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
When Christ said "SWEAR NOT AT ALL"(Matt 5:34), I would say he especially meant don't swear loyalty and secrecy and mutual protection to a dubious org with dubious history.
Swearing to be telling the truth is not nearly the same applcation as compromising Christian conscience by swearing to protecting the guilty by silence. Psalm 94:16 KJV, or 93 other versions.
I think Christians can discern the truth of the matter. Christ is not "refuted" and over-ruled by Paul taking an oath to God as Wayne claimed.
The masonic oath is a promise to freemasonry of silence regardless what secrets may be learned. Wayne is tring to convert people to freemasonry here, wihout knowng what the higher degrees involve.
I don't want my Christianity tainted by serving freemasonry over conscience. Wayne's thread here, and he won't stop. nuff said. Discern.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Wayne is tring to convert people to freemasonry here
Where? Please cite page number and post number where you feel I did this.
wihout knowng what the higher degrees involve.
The higher degrees are even more direct and specific about Christian faith than the "lower degrees." The Knights Templar order requires a commitment to Christian faith before entry is allowed.
I think Christians can discern the truth of the matter.
I think they can too, if you would stop trying to tell them otherwise.
 
Upvote 0

JamesJD

Regular Member
Jun 29, 2007
381
0
✟23,011.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Keep acting like the command of Christ doesn't apply to freemasonry; "SWEAR NOT AT ALL"(Matt 5:33-34), as if freemasonry is above suspicion, with the Italian mafia & the mafia P2 Lodge founded by prominent freemason Mazzini; or with prominent freemason Pike charged with crimes against civilians & treason, having high rank in the KKK, or the big fan of fremasonry grand mastermason Aliester Crowley, recognized in Italy and France, but not by the Grand Lodge of England; nevertheless, it shows what type of people are into freemasonry.

Swearing oaths of secrecy , mutual protection of other freemasons, and loyalty (Scottish Rite), aids people like Pike and Mazzini and Crowley.

No corrupted churches can over-rule Christ, and Paul taking an oath to GOD, not freemasonry, is not better than the Lord you ignore for the sake of freemasonry, rather than humbly acknoledge an error in believing it's OK to join freemasonry. SWEAR NOT AT ALL"...you can't change the wording, or spin it, you're caught ignoring the command of the Lord, while pretending to be religious.

The title of this thread says it's not about only Blue Lodge, as you try to pretend when you distance Pike and Mazzini, as if they don't count. The P2 Lodge, like Crowleys' Ordo Templi Orientis, operates freely, handing out degrees, regardless if recognized by the Grand Lodge OFFICIALLY or not.
All the big politicians can be tied to one secret society or another. Bohemian Grove isn't imaginary abomination rites by freemasons like Reagan, & Rockefeller ILLuminati puppets like Bush.
SWEAR NOT AT ALL (Matt 5:34) especially applies to masonic oaths. He's not paid to accept truth here while claiming to be a reverend.
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A coalition of all churches cannot over-rule the command of Christ "SWEAR NOT AT ALL"

Nor can an “army of one” over-rule the overwhelming majority of Christians who interpret this matter differently than you. In addition to the slew of interpreters that have already been shown to interpret it differently than you do (Post #115), these do not agree with you either:


What He forbids is, the swearing at all, 1, by any creature, 2, in our ordinary conversation: both of which the scribes and Pharisees taught to be perfectly innocent. (Wesley’s Notes on the NT)

That this was meant to condemn swearing of every kind and on every occasion—as the Society of Friends and some other ultra-moralists allege—is not for a moment to be thought. For even Jehovah is said once and again to have sworn by Himself; and our Lord certainly answered upon oath to a question put to Him by the high priest; and the apostle several times, and in the most solemn language, takes God to witness that he spoke and wrote the truth; and it is inconceivable that our Lord should here have quoted the precept about not forswearing ourselves, but performing to the Lord our oaths, only to give a precept of His own directly in the teeth of it. Evidently, it is swearing in common intercourse and on frivolous occasions that is here meant. Frivolous oaths were indeed severely condemned in the teaching of the times. But so narrow was the circle of them that a man might swear, says Lightfoot, a hundred thousand times and yet not be guilty of vain swearing. Hardly anything was regarded as an oath if only the name of God were not in it; just as among ourselves, as Trench well remarks, a certain lingering reverence for the name of God leads to cutting off portions of His name, or uttering sounds nearly resembling it, or substituting the name of some heathen deity, in profane exclamations or asseverations. Against all this our Lord now speaks decisively; teaching His audience that every oath carries an appeal to God, whether named or not. (Jamiesson, Fausset, Brown Commentary)

See James v.12, and note there, as explanatory why, in both cases, swearing by the name of God is not specified as forbidden. In the words, ‘Swear not at all,’ our Lord does not so much make a positive enactment by which all swearing is to individuals forbidden, e.g. on solemn occasions, and for the satisfaction of others, (for that would be a mere technical Pharisaism, wholly at variance with the spirit of the Gospel, and inconsistent with the example of God Himself, Heb. Vi. 13-17; vii. 21; of the Lord when on earth, whose “verily verily I say unto you” was a solemn asseveration, and who at once resp;ected the solemn adjuration of Caiaphas, ch. Xxvi. 63, 64; of His Apostles, writing under the guidance of His Spirit, see Gal. i. 20; 2 Cor. i:23; Rom. i:9; Phil. i.8, and especially 1 Cor. Xv. 31; of His holy angels, Rev. x. 6). (Henry Alford, The NT for English Readers)

Does this saying of jesus then forbid a man to take an oath anywhere--for instance, in the witness box?
In the ancient days the Essenes would not in any circumstances take an oath, and to this day the Quakers are the same.
Are they correct in taking this line in this matter? There were occasions when Paul as it were, put himself upon oath. "I call God to witness against me," he writes to the Corinthians, "It was to spare you taht I refrained from coming to Corinth" (2 Cor. 1:23). "Now the things that I write unto you," he writes to the Galatians, in what I am writing to you, before God I do not lie!" (Gal. 1:20). On these occasions Paul is putting himself on oath. Jesus Himself did not protest at being put on oath. At His trial before the High Priest, the High Priest said to Him, "I adjure you by the living God,--I put you on oath by God Himself--tell us if you are the Christ the Son of God" (Matt. 26:63). (William Barclay, Daily Study Bible Series, The Gospel of Matthew


[It will be seen from the quotation given by Jesus that the law permitted oaths made unto the Lord. It was not the intention of Jesus to repeal this law. But the Jews, looking upon this law, construed it as giving them exemption from the binding effect of all other oaths. According to the their construction no oath was binding in which the sacred name of God did not directly occur. They therefore coined many other oaths to suit their purposes, which would add weight to their statements or promises, which, however, would not leave them guilty of being forsworn if they spoke untruthfully. But Jesus showed that all oaths were ultimately referable to God, and that those who made them would be forsworn if they did not keep them. To prevent this evil practice of loose swearing Jesus lays down the prohibition, "Swear not at all;" but the universality of this prohibition is distributed by the specifications of these four forms of oaths, and is, therefore, most strictly interpreted as including only such oaths. Jesus surely did not intend to abolish now, in advance of the general abrogation of the law, those statutes of Moses which allowed, and in some instances required, the administration of an oath. See Ex. xxii. 11; Num. v. 19. What we style the judicial oaths of the law of Moses then were not included in the prohibition. This conclusion is also reached when we interpret the prohibition in the light of authoritative examples; for we find that God swore by himself (Gen. xxii. 16, 17; Heb. vi. 13; vii. 21). Jesus answered under oath before the Sanhedrin (Matt. xxvi. 63), and Paul also made oath to the Corinthian church (II. Cor. i. 23). See also Rom. i. 9; Gal. i. 20; Phil. i. 8 [243] I. Cor. xv. 31; Rev. x. 5, 6. We conclude, then, that judicial oaths, and oaths taken in the name of God on occasions of solemn religious importance, are not included in the prohibition. (McGarvey-Pendleton NT Commentary)

I. It is agreed on all hands that it forbids perjury, forswearing, and the violation of oaths and vows, v. 33. This was said to them of old time, and is the true intent and meaning of the third commandment. Thou shalt not use, or take up, the name of God (as we do by an oath) in vain, or unto vanity, or a lie. He hath not lift up his soul unto vanity, is expounded in the next words, nor sworn deceitfully, Ps. xxiv. 4. Perjury is a sin condemned by the light of nature, as a complication of impiety toward God and injustice toward man, and as rendering a man highly obnoxious to the divine wrath, which was always judged to follow so infallibly upon that sin, that the forms of swearing were commonly turned into execrations or imprecations; as that, God do so to me, and more also; and with us, So help me God; wishing I may never have any help from God, if I swear falsely. Thus, by the consent of nations, have men cursed themselves, not doubting but that God would curse them, if they lied against the truth then, when they solemnly called God to witness to it.
It is added, from some other scriptures, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths (Num. xxx. 2); which may be meant, either, 1. Of those promises to which God is a party, vows made to God; these must be punctually paid (Eccl. v. 4, 5): or, 2. Of those promises made to our brethren, to which God was a Witness, he being appealed to concerning our sincerity; these must be performed to the Lord, with an eye to him, and for his sake: for to him, by ratifying the promises with an oath, we have made ourselves debtors; and if we break a promise so ratified, we have not lied unto men only, but unto God.
II. It is here added, that the commandment does not only forbid false swearing, but all rash, unnecessary swearing: Swear not at all, v. 34; Compare Jam. v. 12. Not that all swearing is sinful; so far from that, if rightly done, it is a part of religious worship, and we in it give unto God the glory due to his name. See Deut. vi. 13; x. 20; Isa. xlv. 23; Jer. iv. 2. We find Paul confirming what he said by such solemnities (2 Cor. i. 23), when there was a necessity for it. In swearing, we pawn the truth of something known, to confirm the truth of something doubtful or unknown; we appeal to a greater knowledge, to a higher court, and imprecate the vengeance of a righteous Judge, if we swear deceitfully. (Matthew Henry Commentary)


Wow: Wesley, Alford, Jamiesson-Faussett-Brown, Barclay, A.T. Robertson, Lightfoot, McGarvey-Pendleton, Matthew Henry--you're building up quite a list here that disagree with you, it reads more like a Who's Who of trusted Christian commentators. And all these people are wrong, and you are right????

The way it's beginning to look more like you are saying, "Let JamesJD be true, and every man a liar."

But sadly, it's not just men who disagree with you.


63But Jesus remained silent.
The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."


Jesus was put under oath, but did not refuse to answer.

By your logic, does that mean He forgot what He said earlier, "Do not swear at all?"

Well, does it???

So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "(Hebrews 3:7-11)
Does that mean God also forgot what Jesus said in Matt. 5:33, since God obviously also has NO PROBLEM taking an oath?

Well, does it???

(I'll give you a hint, the answer is "NO" in both cases. What it DOES mean is, your interpretation has serious holes in it, and Jesus never meant for His remark to be applied to ALL oaths across the board.)
 
Upvote 0

Rev Wayne

Simplicity + Sincerity = Serenity
Sep 16, 2003
4,128
101
73
SC
Visit site
✟28,540.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
the word "FORESWEAR" means in advance, NOT don't break an oath. It speaks for itself, but you IGNORE what the Lord says, to suit freemasonry.


No, it does not, and there is the source of your serious error on the matter. The word is "FORswear," not "FOREswear."


for·swear also fore·swear (fôr-swâr', f&#333;r-)
  1. To renounce or repudiate under oath.
  2. To swear falsely; commit perjury.


It means to renege on the oath once it has been taken. It really must be a point of conviction for a number of ex-Masons every time they see it, realizing what they did was in direct disobedience to what Jesus says we must do.

And I must say, since it is very apparent that you do not even have a correct understanding of the basic definitions involved here, why should anyone believe you on your against-the-grain interpretation? Wouldn't the more likely course be to assume you are incorrect on that as well?
 
Upvote 0