• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

The Anathematization of Honorius, Bishop of Rome

Status
Not open for further replies.

ScottBot

Revolutionary
May 2, 2005
50,468
1,441
58
a state of desperation
✟57,712.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
NewToLife said:
We agree, you are quite free to believe the moon is made of Swiss cheese, it is after all every bit as tenable a position as holding the nonsense of papal infallibility to be true.
In your opinion, and if you want to believe this nonsense about the Primacy of Honor of the Patriarch of Rome, but not the Supremacy, that is your business. When we all stand before Christ, we'll get our answer. Until then, Christians will continue spending their energy bickering and trying to prove that their perspective is right at the expense of doing God's work, harvesting the fields of the Lord.
 
Upvote 0

JVAC

Baptized into His name
Nov 28, 2003
1,787
81
40
Fresno, CA
✟2,369.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
I just wanted to cite what i promised:

In like manner Rome betrayed the Homoousious creed of Nicaea by signing a Homoiousious creed in the mid 300's (you'll have to wait for the cite, I am away from my recources).

This was Pope Liberius in the council of Sirmium, Hilary's Fragmenta Historica.
 
Upvote 0

Philip

Orthodoxy: Old School, Hard Core Christianity
Jun 23, 2003
5,619
241
53
Orlando, FL
Visit site
✟7,106.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Yep. Catholic sources usually say that he did so under duress, so it doesn't count. This seems odd to me. After all, it is under times of duress that we are most in need of the Holy Spirit's strength. I would think that this would have been the perfect opportunity to prove the infallibility of the pope. Even under very cruel coercion, he should not have given in. Instead, he should have confess the truth faith, even if it meant martyrdom. In the words of St James,

James 1:2-4
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
 
Upvote 0

Philip

Orthodoxy: Old School, Hard Core Christianity
Jun 23, 2003
5,619
241
53
Orlando, FL
Visit site
✟7,106.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Philip said:
Does anyone have a list of when the Pope has done this? I have yet to see a definitive list.

Seriously, does anyone have a list of when the pope has spoken ex cathedra? Supporters of Papal Infallibility are quick to point out when the pope hasn't spoken ex cathedra. But when has he?
 
Upvote 0

JVAC

Baptized into His name
Nov 28, 2003
1,787
81
40
Fresno, CA
✟2,369.00
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
Philip said:
Yep. Catholic sources usually say that he did so under duress, so it doesn't count. This seems odd to me. After all, it is under times of duress that we are most in need of the Holy Spirit's strength. I would think that this would have been the perfect opportunity to prove the infallibility of the pope. Even under very cruel coercion, he should not have given in. Instead, he should have confess the truth faith, even if it meant martyrdom. In the words of St James,

James 1:2-4
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
When I was searching for the cite information, I recall something about saying that Pope Liberius was even recorded to apose St Athanasius during this Council, and thus so adding persecution of that Pious Doctor of the Church to his actions.

I agree with you it would be interesting to know when the Roman Bishop has spoken ex-cathedra.

-James
 
Upvote 0

Philip

Orthodoxy: Old School, Hard Core Christianity
Jun 23, 2003
5,619
241
53
Orlando, FL
Visit site
✟7,106.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
JVAC said:
When I was searching for the cite information, I recall something about saying that Pope Liberius was even recorded to apose St Athanasius during this Council, and thus so adding persecution of that Pious Doctor of the Church to his actions.

He is accused of more that opposing Athanasius the Apostolic. He excommunicated him. But, of course, opposition to a Pillar of Orthodoxy doesn't fall under that category of 'teaching on faith and morals'. ;)
 
Upvote 0

NewToLife

Senior Veteran
Jan 29, 2004
3,029
223
58
London
✟19,339.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Seriously, does anyone have a list of when the pope has spoken ex cathedra? Supporters of Papal Infallibility are quick to point out when the pope hasn't spoken ex cathedra. But when has he?

If you look into this seriously you will discover that even within Catholicism there are actually a variety of opinions on this matter, on the low end you get a figure of twice though. Remarkably really that it should be used so rarely.
 
Upvote 0

Philip

Orthodoxy: Old School, Hard Core Christianity
Jun 23, 2003
5,619
241
53
Orlando, FL
Visit site
✟7,106.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
NewToLife said:
If you look into this seriously you will discover that even within Catholicism there are actually a variety of opinions on this matter, on the low end you get a figure of twice though. Remarkably really that it should be used so rarely.

Remarkable also that it does not seem to have been used for critical issues such as Arianism.
 
Upvote 0

IgnatiusOfAntioch

Contributor
May 3, 2005
5,859
469
Visit site
✟31,267.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
anglicancrusader said:
This issue is one of significant importance to the Orthodox Christians and the Old Catholics, I look forward to friendly, charitable discussion on this subject.

In the interest of an open and honest discussion, let us examine the facts.

The Monothelite question was raised about 634 in a letter to pope Honorius from Sergius, the Patriarch of Constantinople. He related that Emperor Heraclius, when in Armenia in 622, in refuting a Monophysite of the Severian sect, had made use of the expression "one operation" (energy, energeia) of the Incarnate Word. Cyrus, Bishop of the Lazi, had considered this doubtfully orthodox, and had asked advice of Sergius. Sergius replied (he says) that he did not wish to decide the matter, but that the expression had been used by his predecessor Mennas in a letter to Pope Vigilius. In 630 Cyrus had become Patriarch of Alexandria. He found Egypt almost entirely Monophysite, as it had been since the Council of Chalcedon in 451. Cyrus, by the use of the expression for which Sergius had been able to produce such good authority, had formulated a series of propositions, which most of the Monophysites were willing to accept, and they were by this means reunited in large numbers to the Church, "so that those who formerly would not speak of the divine Leo and the great Council of Chalcedon now commemorated both with a loud voice in the holy mysteries". At this juncture Sophronius, a Palestinian monk, famed for holiness, came to Alexandria. He disapproved of the formulary of Cyrus, and Sergius was evidently somewhat disquieted at this. The reunion of so many heretics was indeed glorious; but the ease with which it had been accomplished must have seemed suspicious. Sophronius was not ready at once with quotations from the Fathers to show that "two operations" was the only orthodox expression. But Sergius was ready to drop the expression "one operation" if Sophronius would do nothing that might destroy the union already accomplished at Alexandria. Sophronius agreed. Sergius, however, was not satisfied with recommending Cyrus for the future to refrain from all mention of either one or two operations, but thought it necessary to place the whole matter before the pope. Sergius naturally was anxious to defend an expression which the emperor had used, and he was unaware that the letter of Mennas to Vigilius was a Monophysite forgery. But Cyrus's large use of his formula and its denunciation by St. Sophronius caused him to take precautionary measures. His readiness to drop the expression shows modesty. Nothing could have been more proper, or more in accordance with the best traditions of his See. He then referred the whole matter to Rome, since the Faith was in question.

It was now for the pope to pronounce a dogmatic decision and save the situation. He did nothing of the sort. His answer to Sergius did not decide the question, did not authoritatively declare the faith of the Church, did not claim to speak with the voice of Peter; it condemned nothing, it defined nothing. Honorius entirely agrees with the caution which Sergius recommends. He praises Sergius for eventually dropping the new expression "one operation", but he unfortunately also agrees with him that it will be well to avoid "two operations" also; which may be misinterpreted as Nestorian. Other passages in the letter are orthodox. But it is plain that the pope simply followed Sergius, without going more deeply into the question. As the letter does not define or condemn, and does not bind the Church to accept its teaching, it is of course impossible to regard it as an ex cathedra utterance. Part of a second letter of Honorius to Sergius was read at the eighth council and it has the merit of referring to the words of St. Leo which Sergius had cited.

Sergius, after receiving the pope's letter approving his recent cautiousness, composed an "Ecthesis", or exposition, which was issued by the emperor towards the end of 638. In conformity with the words of Honorius it orders all the subjects of Heraclius to confess one Will in our Lord, and to avoid the expressions "one operation" and "two operations". Before Sergius died, in December, he assembled a great synod at Constantinople, which accepted the Ecthesis as "truly agreeing with the Apostolic preaching"; the letter from the Apostolic See was evidently the surety for this. Honorius was already dead, and had no opportunity of approving or disapproving the imperial document. Emperor Heraclius then wrote to the pope, laying the blame on Sergius, and disowning the Ecthesis. He died shortly afterwards (February, 641). To his elder son John IV addressed a letter known as the "Apology for Pope Honorius". He explains quite truly that both Sergius and Honorius asserted one Will only because they would not admit contrary wills; and he shows by his argument that they were wrong in using such a misleading expression. No doubt Honorius did not really intend to deny that there is in Christ a human will, the higher faculty; but he used words which could be interpreted in the sense of that heresy, and he did not recognize that the question was not about the unity of the Person Who wills, nor about the entire agreement of the Divine Will with the human faculty, but about the distinct existence of the human faculty as an integrant part of the Humanity of Christ.

St. Maximos of Constantinople, a monk and formerly secretary of Heraclius, now becomes the protagonist of orthodoxy and of Rome. His defence of the now deceased Honorius is based upon the statements of a certain abbot, John Symponus.

In the mean time Emperor Constans set up a new patriarch, Paul. Paul, on his appointment, sent the customary confession of faith to the pope. As it did not confess two wills, it was condemned by Pope Theodore. Paul first showed anger, but then prevailed on Constans to withdraw the Ecthesis, for which was substituted a Typos, or "Type", in which it was again forbidden to speak of one or two operations, but "one Will" was no longer taught; instead it was said that neither one nor two wills were to be spoken of, but no blame was to attach to any one who had used either expression in the past. This edict was based upon a misinterpretation of the Apology of John IV, who had shown that "one Will" was an improper expression, but had declared that both Pope Honorius and Partriarch Sergius had used it in an orthodox sense. But John IV had neither defended nor blamed Honorius and Sergius for wishing the expression "two operations" to be avoided. But both patriarch and emperor declared that they forced no man's conscience. The Type, unlike the Ecthesis, was not an exposition of faith, but a mere prohibition of the use of certain words, for the avoidance of wrangling.


In what was Honorius condemned? Emporer Constans was murdered in 668. His successor, Constantine Pogonatus, did not trouble to enforce the Type. At his request Pope St. Agatho sent legates to preside at a general council which met at Constantinople on 7 Nov., 680. They brought with them a long dogmatic letter in which the pope defined the faith with authority as the successor of St. Peter. He emphatically declares, remembering Honorius, that the Apostolic Church of St. Peter has never fallen into error. He condemns the Ecthesis and Type. The Monothelite Patriarch of Antioch, Macarius, had been allowed to present other testimonies, which were examined and found to be incorrect. The Patriarch of Constantinople, George, and all the council accepted the papal letter, and Macarius was condemned and deposed for not accepting it. Honorius, so far, had been thrice appealed to by Macarius, but had been mentioned by no one else. In the twelfth session, 12 March, 681, a packet was produced which Macarius had sent to the emperor, but which the latter had not opened. It proved to contain the letter of Sergius to Cyrus and to Honorius, the forged letter of Mennas to Vigilius, and the letter of Honorius to Sergius. In the thirteenth session, 28 March, the two letters of Sergius were condemned, and the council added: "Those whose impious dogmas we execrate, we judge that their names also shall be cast out of the holy Church of God". On 9 Aug., in the last session, Emporer George of Constantinople petitioned "that the persons be not anathematized by name".

Honorius was not condemned by the council as a Monothelite, but for approving Sergius's contradictory policy of placing orthodox and heretical expressions under the same ban. It was in this sense that Patriarch Paul and his Type were condemned; and the council was certainly well acquainted with the history of the Type, and with the Apology of John IV for Sergius and Honorius, and the defences by St. Maximos.

The fault of Honorius for which he was condemned lay precisely in the fact that he had not authoritatively published that unchanging faith of his Church, in other words, that he had not issued a definition ex cathedra condemning it. As St. Leo said "With Honorius, who did not, as became the Apostolic authority, extinguish the flame of heretical teaching in its first beginning, . . . .by his negligence." That is , he did not insist on the "two operations", but agreed with Sergius that the whole matter should be hushed up. You see, the condemnation was for not exercising his position as pope as they thought he ought to have done.
 
Upvote 0

Athanasian Creed

Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Solus Christus !!!
Aug 3, 2003
2,368
154
Toronto
Visit site
✟25,984.00
Faith
Christian
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Speaking of Papal Infallibility (from Dave Hunt's book, "A Woman Rides The Beast", www.thebereancall.org/default.aspx)


"I need no other argument (against Papal infallibility) than this single one, that in my entire life I never met a man who was less particular about the truth than Pius IX."
- Cardinal Gustav von Hohenlohe

"The unhealthy mysticism, the childish tantrums, the shallow sensibility, the intermittent mental absences, the strangely inappropriate language even in strictly official speeches, and the senile obstinacy all indicate the loss of a solid grip on reality...Beyond this there are the instances of near megalomania which are still hard to evaluate. In 1866...Pius IX applied Christ's saying, "I am the way, the truth, and the life," to himself...(it was reported) that on June 17, 1870 "the Pope recently got the urge to try out his infallibility...While out on a walk he called to a paralytic: "Get up and walk" The poor (man) gave it a try and collapsed, which put God's vice-regent very much out of sorts...I really believe he's insane."
- August Bernhard Hasler, "How the Pope became Infallible", pp. 124-127

"...it is plain that the Bishop of Rome looked like (Emperor) Constantine, lived like him, dressed like him, inhabited his palaces, ruled over his lands, had exactly the same imperial outlook. The Pope, too, wanted to lord it over Church and state. Only seven hundred years after (the Apostle) Peter died, the Popes had become obsessed with power and possessions. Peter's (alleged) successors (became) not the servants but the masters of the world. They...dress in purple like (Emperor) Nero and call themselves 'Pontifex Maximus'.
- Peter de Rosa, "Vicars of Christ: The Dark side of the Papacy", pp. 34-35

"Everyone knows the one classical passage of Scripture on which the edifice of Papal Infallibility has been reared: "I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not; and when thou art converted, confirm thy brethren" (Luke 22:32) But these words manifestly refer only to Peter personally, to his denial of Christ and his conversion...It is directly against the sense of the passage...to find in it a promise of future infallibility to a succession of Popes...No single writer to the end of the seventh century dreamt of such an interpretation; all without exception - and there are eighteen of them - explain it simply as a prayer of Christ that His Apostle might not wholly succumb and lose his faith entirely in his approaching trial."
- August Bernhard Hasler, "How the Pope became Infallible", pg. 8 (introduction)

"None of the ancient confessions of the faith, no catechism, none of the Patristic writings composed for the instruction of the people, contain a syllable about the Pope, still less any hint that all certainty of faith and doctrine depends on him...The Fathers could the less recognize in the power of the keys, and the power of binding and loosing, any special prerogative or lordship of the Roman bishop, inasmuch as - what is obvious to any one at first sight - they did not regard a power first given to Peter, and afterwards conferred in precisely the same words on all the Apostles, as any thing peculiar to him, or hereditary in the line of Roman bishops, and they held the symbol of the keys as meaning just the same as the figurative expression of binding and loosing...The power of the keys, or of binding and loosing, was universally held to belong to other bishops just as much as to the bishop of Rome."
- J.H. Ignaz von Dollinger, "The Pope and the Council", pp. 53,66,74

In his epistles Peter exhorts equals; he does not command subordinates: "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder." (1 Peter 5:1)


"It is evident that the Popes can neither be bound nor unbound by any earthly power, nor even by that of the Apostle (Peter), if he should return upon the earth: since Constantine the Great has recognized that the pontiffs held the place of God upon earth, the divinity not being able to be judged by any living man. We are, then, infallible, and whatever may be our acts, we are not accountable for them but to ourselves."
"Fear, then, our wrath and the thunders of our vengeance; for Jesus Christ has appointed us (the Popes) with His own mouth absolute judges of all men; and kings themselves are submitted to our authority."
- Pope Nicholas I (858-867)



According to Vatican II, no one is allowed even to question the Magisterium in matters of faith and morals. Only the hierarchy can interpret the Bible, and the faithful must accept that interpretation as from God. And everyone must obey the Pope even when he does not speak 'ex cathedra'. Such requirements of blind faith are today's vestiges of the tyrannical rule of the Popes down through the centuries.



Ray :wave:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dale
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,506
1,335
72
Sebring, FL
✟839,293.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
AnglicanCrusader in OP:
<< This issue is one of significant importance to the Orthodox Christians and the Old Catholics, who reject the dogma of Papal Infallibility. Honorius publicly taught heresy. >>

Three later Popes chose the name Honorius. Since Honorius I was condemned for heresy, why would three later Popes choose the same name as that used by a heretic? The first Honorius II is regarded as an antipope. Very well, but if Honorius I was a heretic, would that not make him an antipope as well? Yet the RCC does not so describe him.

Also, Honorius I died in 638 AD and was condemned for heresy by the Council of Constantinople in 681, forty-three years after the death of Honorius. If Honorius was a heretic, how on earth did it take the RCC until forty-three years after his death to realize it?
 
Upvote 0

dignitized

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2005
24,931
759
✟29,618.00
Scott_LaFrance said:
I simply find it laughable that in nearly 2,000 years, this is the best arguement against papal infallibility that people can come up with, that Pope Honorius I did not take the opportunity to officially denounce monothelism.
It's not the best argument - but it is a very effective one :). The best argument is simple - ONLY God is infallible. :p
 
Upvote 0

dignitized

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2005
24,931
759
✟29,618.00
Dale said:
AnglicanCrusader in OP:
<< This issue is one of significant importance to the Orthodox Christians and the Old Catholics, who reject the dogma of Papal Infallibility. Honorius publicly taught heresy. >>

Three later Popes chose the name Honorius. Since Honorius I was condemned for heresy, why would three later Popes choose the same name as that used by a heretic? The first Honorius II is regarded as an antipope. Very well, but if Honorius I was a heretic, would that not make him an antipope as well? Yet the RCC does not so describe him.

Also, Honorius I died in 638 AD and was condemned for heresy by the Council of Constantinople in 681, forty-three years after the death of Honorius. If Honorius was a heretic, how on earth did it take the RCC until forty-three years after his death to realize it?
It's not necessarily that it took them that long to realize it - but that it took that long for a body of authority to gather and make the statement. :)
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,506
1,335
72
Sebring, FL
✟839,293.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Br. Max in post #35:
<< It's not necessarily that it took them that long to realize it - but that it took that long for a body of authority to gather and make the statement. :) >>

Yet the Roman Catholic position on the subject is confused. Pope Honorius III authorized and chartered both the Franciscan and Dominican Orders and so probably propelled Francis and Dominic toward being canonized saints. The names taken by Popes indicate the policy that they will pursue. So why did Honorius III take the name Honorius, if Honorius I is tainted by heresy? Yet Honorius III is a Pope of considerable significance for the later RCC.

Honorius I was condemned for failing to fully answer a question in volumous correspondence with the Patriarch of Constaninople. By that standard it is difficult to imagine a religious leader who couldn't be condemned. If I were to condemn every prophet who failed to say what I think they should have said, I would wind up condemning them all, starting with Moses.


It is more sensible to believe that Honorius I was a victim of the times he lived in. He lived in a time where assemblies of Bishops met and passed out depositions, excommunications, condemnations and anathemas. The greater problem is that the Roman Catholic Church is too negative, it condemns too many, too often.
 
Upvote 0

marciebaby

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2005
941
12
48
St Louis, MO
✟23,750.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Isn't it true that in the early history of the popes, that each had an opponent, called an antipope- and no one was really sure which was the TRUE pope and which was the antipope until time had run its course. And of course popular opionion between the two would sway back and forth, depending on circumstances.

It's pretty convenient to see the situation in retrospect and decide-"ok, that guy was the pope, and that guy wasn't." It just doesn't make any sense to me.
 
Upvote 0

dignitized

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2005
24,931
759
✟29,618.00
Dale said:
Br. Max in post #35:
<< It's not necessarily that it took them that long to realize it - but that it took that long for a body of authority to gather and make the statement. :) >>

Yet the Roman Catholic position on the subject is confused. Pope Honorius III authorized and chartered both the Franciscan and Dominican Orders and so probably propelled Francis and Dominic toward being canonized saints. The names taken by Popes indicate the policy that they will pursue. So why did Honorius III take the name Honorius, if Honorius I is tainted by heresy? Yet Honorius III is a Pope of considerable significance for the later RCC.

Honorius I was condemned for failing to fully answer a question in volumous correspondence with the Patriarch of Constaninople. By that standard it is difficult to imagine a religious leader who couldn't be condemned. If I were to condemn every prophet who failed to say what I think they should have said, I would wind up condemning them all, starting with Moses.


It is more sensible to believe that Honorius I was a victim of the times he lived in. He lived in a time where assemblies of Bishops met and passed out depositions, excommunications, condemnations and anathemas. The greater problem is that the Roman Catholic Church is too negative, it condemns too many, too often.
but the roman catholic church has never admitted they were wrong. EVER. SO they never recognized that Honorious was an heretic. why should they? The still won't admit that the Medici pope Clement VII made his own ******* son a cardinal! They insisit it was his nephew. Kinda like how the brothers and sisters of Christ in the scriptures were really his cousins!! ;)
 
Upvote 0

IgnatiusOfAntioch

Contributor
May 3, 2005
5,859
469
Visit site
✟31,267.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Br. Max said:
It's not the best argument - but it is a very effective one :). The best argument is simple - ONLY God is infallible.

Precisely, that is why God founded the Church, so that we would have an infallible guide in matters of Faith and Morals.
 
Upvote 0

IgnatiusOfAntioch

Contributor
May 3, 2005
5,859
469
Visit site
✟31,267.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Dale said:
Honorius I died in 638 AD and was condemned for heresy by the Council of Constantinople in 681, forty-three years after the death of Honorius. If Honorius was a heretic, how on earth did it take the RCC until forty-three years after his death to realize it?

Again, in the interest of an open and honest discussion, let's examine the facts (see here http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=18500216&postcount=30)

Your brother in Christ.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.