The Administration Of Tongues

[Hillsage]

I would like to offer this.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Those of us who have the gift of "tongues" from God, do so because we also know the "knowledge" about them that has not "vanished away". But, as Paul warned concerning those who were "unlearned" and "ignorant" in his day, for them there was neither "knowledge" nor was there was a supernatural "tongue".

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

And we thank God for allowing us to receive that gift from Him, so that we have a bigger part to help us "strive for perfection". Just like Paul encouraged.

 

[Biblicist]

Stating that: "to your knowledge" is meaningless. Of absolutely no significance. What I would ask is: Have you ever SOUGHT such information? Obviously NOT. For there is PLENTY. Possession is possession whether one claims it's source as the Holy Spirit or some other spirit. Those susceptible to hypnotism exhibit similar signs.

Many studies have been made SINCE the 60's. And YES, measurements CAN be made of those CLAIMING to be in an ecstatic state. And the conclusion among most that have done such research is that the 'state' that they claim to be 'ecstatic' is very similar to the same state that one exhibits when pretending, ACTING or fantasizing.

Blessings,

MEC

Maybe you have failed to notice that Pneumatology is my main field of interest which is why I endeavour to obtain the best available material on the subject which not only includes the better contemporary commentaries but with research articles as well.

So when I come across silly statements that say “Many studies…” I know full well that the person who says that has probably never come across any articles that have discussed the psychological research which has been undertaken with those who speak in tongues.

As for your “Many studies…” may I suggest that you provide a link or two for the “research” that you are claiming to refer to – this should be interesting!

You might be interested with the following brief article from the New York Times (2006) regarding a study undertaken by the University of Pennsylvania, along with a reference to some some recent British research. The lead photo was interesting where they apparently found a picture of some Believers in the Congo where maybe a picture of a Pennsylvannia church where the research was apparently taken would have been more appropriate, but we can hardly expect the 'spiritually discerned' to address the things of the Spirit in a fair manner.

nytimes.com

“Researchers at the University of Pennsylvania took….

Contrary to what may be a common perception, studies suggest that people who speak in tongues rarely suffer from mental problems. A recent study of nearly 1,000 evangelical Christians in England found that those who engaged in the practice were more emotionally stable than those who did not. Researchers have identified at least two forms of the practice, one ecstatic and frenzied, the other subdued and nearly silent.​

The new findings contrasted sharply with images taken of other spiritually inspired mental states like meditation, which is often a highly focused mental exercise, activating the frontal lobes”.
​

Over the years I've come across a number of references and articles to research with those who speak in tongues. From what I've seen so far and by the comments of a number of well respected Theologians who have seen the same material, it appears that other than the research following similar lines to that of the Penn University, the results so far seem to be fairly benign where they offer little more than some interesting but positive insights.

 

[Imagican]

I would like to offer this.

1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Those of us who have the gift of "tongues" from God, do so because we also know the "knowledge" about them that has not "vanished away". But, as Paul warned concerning those who were "unlearned" and "ignorant" in his day, for them there was neither "knowledge" nor was there was a supernatural "tongue".

Don't you see the utter contradiction in your words? You KNOW the KNOWLEDGE of something that has not vanished away. But openly admit that the gibberish that you speak CANNOT be understood. That's RIDICULOUS. There is NO true knowledge or understanding in something that CANNOT be understood. That's a contradiction in terms.

And here you err. The unlearned and ignorant ARE those that have YET to come to a PERFECT understanding. And that perfect understanding involve putting away childish things and growing into the perfection we have been instructed to: LOVE, or 'charity', whichever word you choose. Charity is the ability to PRACTICE love.

So what Paul is offering is if you are truly striving to be a follower, and you have come to the truth, let those that remain 'children' remain children without punishing them as such. For it is not OUR duty to punish ANYONE or CHASTISE them as the churches have so often attempted to do. It is our duty to love each other regardless of what one believes or follows. Those that are following in TRUTH will soon GROW INTO the perfection of love and those that choose to remain like children, (ignorant), will remain so. It's up to GOD to deal with their childishness or ignorance, not us. The MOST that we can DO is try to point out the TRUTH and then move on.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

And we thank God for allowing us to receive that gift from Him, so that we have a bigger part to help us "strive for perfection". Just like Paul encouraged.

Well, so far you've been unable to show that what you practice IS that gift you give thanks for.

If ALL we do is suppose to be;

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

(notice there are NOT tongues, no PROPHETS. Why? Because the Ephesians were not STRUGGLING with the TRUTH as the Corinthians were. He was ABLE to offer MEAT to the Ephesians whereas the Corinthians couldn't even handle MILK).

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

(See, the perfection mentioned to the Corinthians was not a perfection in some 'way in the future TIME', it was RIGHT NOW. For those able, they are able RIGHT NOW to come into the unity of the faith, and of the KNOWLEDGE of the Son of God, UNTO A PERFECT MAN, unto the measure and stature of the FULNESS of Christ. HOW? lets see.)

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

So you see, it's not about reading ONE line at a time and then trying to use those INDIVIDUAL lines to justify what one CHOOSES to believe. It's about ALL lines and allowing them to FIT together and FOLLOWING what is REVEALED rather than what one WANTS to follow.

Now, see if you can explain how making gibberish noises fits into ANY of the scriptures. Show ONE example of how speaking in gibberish brings about ANYTHING but 'self edification'. And then show where we are instructed to SEEK 'self edification'. Those that are "BORN AGAIN" do NOT seek their OWN pleasure or self edification. They have GROWN beyond such childish ways and have become MEN in Christ. And at that point, they NO LONGER see through a glass darkly, but KNOW Christ as they are already know by Him and the Father. They have reached the point of PERFECTION in UNDERSTANDING.

But understand, this has NOTHING to do with ACTING perfect. It's about UNDERSTANDING, not PRACTICE. For not a single man in the FLESH, except Christ, will EVER practice in perfection. But that doesn't mean that they are incapable of a PERFECT understanding even if unable to practice perfectly. But the MORE perfect one's understanding, the MORE they are able to OVERCOME. The more they are able to SHARE what it is that they Understand in Perfection.

But hey, I KNOW how difficult some of this is for MOST. For most will remain 'babes in Christ' their entire lives. God offers understanding through the Holy Spirit in the level on is able to bear. And most are unable to even bear MILK, much less MEAT.

But you inability to understand is now a matter of CHOICE, because I have explained the TRUTH. If you are able to bear it, rejoice, if not, I would suggest more EFFORT than just sitting back WAITING for understanding to be revealed. And that effort comes from reading and studying the scriptures. NOT to justify one's behavior, but to understand the MEANING of one's behavior.

Instead of even TRYING to understand the truth, you sit back and pat yourselves on your collective backs and reinforce FALSE understanding or that of a CHILD.

So you HONESTLY believe that those that refuse to accept the gibberish you insist is tongues are in any way LESS holy than yourselves? SEE, you deceive yourselves and allow other deceivers to lead you to such false understanding.

If the gibberish you insist are 'true tongues', then EVERY soul that has ever existed and been 'born again' would KNOW that they are the TRUTH. Yet the overwhelming majority of the 'church' doesn't only refuse to practice such childishness, they KNOW that there is NOTHING 'holy' about it.

It is NOT those that refuse to accept the childishness that are devoid of the Spirit, it is those that practice that which is untrue that choose to separate themselves from the Body.

I challenge anyone that speaks in gibberish and calls it tongues to explain HOW doing something like that is capable of BENEFITING anyone other than bring attention upon themselves or making themselves APPEAR to be holier than others. If it is NOT understood by the speaker or he who hears it, the NOISE itself means absolutely NOTHING in TRUTH. It can't. For it is utterly impossible to UNDERSTAND. And that which cannot be UNDERSTOOD cannot bring any TRUE spiritual benefit whatsoever.

And just look at all the DIVERSITY of the UNDERSTANDING among those that insist that gibberish is 'tongues'. Even in this discussion, no TWO of you that defend it believe in the SAME THING. Each has his OWN understanding. That is NOT UNITY in the Spirit. That is UTTER confusion. For if it was true understanding each of you would be in utter agreement. But you're NOT. Each of you has a DIFFERENT 'gibberish' that you insist are 'tongues'.

But if you insist upon ignorance, as Paul said................ But if there is even ONE among you who claims to be the least bit spiritual, let him profess that the words Paul offered are the COMMANDMENTS of God and PUT away such childish behavior as commanded by Paul. That is, IF you would choose to be a MAN in understanding. If you would choose to GROW up INTO the fulness that is Christ Jesus.

Colossians 3:14
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

And guys, understand this:
IF, IF, IF your opinions DO NOT conform with scripture they are U S E L E S S. Utterly USELESS. Like Biblicists insistence that support of slavery is somehow WRONG. That is HIS opinion and the OPINION of many others. Scripture does NOT back such a stance. Scripture SUPPORTS slavery throughout the ENTIRE BIBLE. You are ALL slaves right this minute and just don't REALIZE it. You are ALL slaves to 'a' Master. You are ALL either living in accordance to the Spirit or you are living in accordance to THIS WORLD. There is NO 'in between' in TRUTH. You may FOOL yourself into believing other wise, but scripture states PURELY and PLAINLY that you CANNOT serve TWO masters at the SAME time. You either serve ONE or the OTHER.

So, continue in your self deception and the attempt to deceive others as long as you please with your opinions. But, if your opinions DO NOT conform to the TRUTH, then they are at the very least, USELESS, and at most, utterly dangerous and destructive to yourselves and anyone that is foolish enough to follow.

We are not instructed to serve through our OPINIONS. But in TRUTH and Spirit. That utterly eliminates the concept of forming OPINIONS to believe in and follow and leaves understanding PERFECTLY CLEAR: if we are TRUE followers then we can ONLY be so through TRUTH and Spirit, NOT opinions.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Biblicist]

And guys, understand this:
IF, IF, IF your opinions DO NOT conform with scripture they are U S E L E S S. Utterly USELESS. Like Biblicists insistence that support of slavery is somehow WRONG. That is HIS opinion and the OPINION of many others. Scripture does NOT back such a stance. Scripture SUPPORTS slavery throughout the ENTIRE BIBLE. You are ALL slaves right this minute and just don't REALIZE it. You are ALL slaves to 'a' Master. You are ALL either living in accordance to the Spirit or you are living in accordance to THIS WORLD. There is NO 'in between' in TRUTH. You may FOOL yourself into believing other wise, but scripture states PURELY and PLAINLY that you CANNOT serve TWO masters at the SAME time. You either serve ONE or the OTHER.

So, continue in your self deception and the attempt to deceive others as long as you please with your opinions. But, if your opinions DO NOT conform to the TRUTH, then they are at the very least, USELESS, and at most, utterly dangerous and destructive to yourselves and anyone that is foolish enough to follow.

We are not instructed to serve through our OPINIONS. But in TRUTH and Spirit. That utterly eliminates the concept of forming OPINIONS to believe in and follow and leaves understanding PERFECTLY CLEAR: if we are TRUE followers then we can ONLY be so through TRUTH and Spirit, NOT opinions.

Blessings,

MEC

Even though I've asked this question on at least three occassions with no reply, so I can better understand where you are coming from, are you a Christian or are you still in the process of "seeking".

 

[Imagican]

Ephesians 6:8
Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

Even though I've asked this question on at least three occassions with no reply, so I can better understand where you are coming from, are you a Christian or are you still in the process of "seeking".

I'll start with this: The Spirit recognizes the Spirit. So if you don't, that speaks volumes.

Please DO NOT 'call me a Christian'. I am a FIRM believer in God, His Son and the Bible, (KJV). I have experienced 'rebirth' and now receive conviction through the Holy Spirit.

But I also continue to SEEK on a daily basis through studying the scriptures. While there are a number of subjects I have been led to understanding, certainly not ALL. And even those that I already possess much understanding continues to evolve. Not in principle, but in DETAIL and how they relate to other principles.
And I'm NOT ONLY a seeker of Spiritual truth, but in TRUTH period. That is what LED to my desire to seek Spiritual truth to begin with. I ASKED, I KNOCKED, I was SEEKING, when God first revealed Himself TO me through His Son.

Now, I have a question: Are YOU a 'Christian'? Or are you still seeking the TRUTH?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Biblicist]

Please DO NOT 'call me a Christian'. I am a FIRM believer in God, His Son and the Bible, (KJV). I have experienced 'rebirth' and now receive conviction through the Holy Spirit.

Well, that's a new one for me.

 

[Imagican]

See, you prove yourself over and over with your sarcasm and ill attitude. I speak the truth in authority and then you come back with sarcasm and spite.

Why not just use the BIBLE and TRUTH instead of trying to fight your way in an effort to convince yourself you're RIGHT?

And it's kind of sad. For that is the NORMAL attitude of those that insist upon gibberish being a 'Spiritual gift'. You stated off indicating that you were different. But it didn't take long for that to change, eh?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Well, that's a new one for me.

I don't doubt that in the least. But consider this: There are about a couple of BILLION people out there CLAIMING to be 'Christians'. And almost every one of them following separate BELIEFS and UNDERSTANDING.

So the last thing that I would choose to be associated with are those so confused.

For the Catholic Church insists that it is THE only TRUE Church. And so do the Baptist and the Methodist and and and and and and...........................
Yet EACH has it's OWN personal set of beliefs. The Spirit is not DIVIDED but UNITED in faith and TRUTH.
This conversation itself has clearly shown that of the three people that have participated that profess gibberish to be tongues, don't even AGREE with each other in attempting to justify it's use.

So how do YOU propose it to be TRUTH when three people RIGHT here RIGHT now have three DIFFERENT understandings? Is the Spirit that LAME that it is unable to supply the SAME understanding? or is it, something else getting in the way?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Ephesians 6:8
Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

 

[Hillsage]

Well, that's a new one for me.

But it's certainly not a hard testimony for me to accept. It really kind of explains a number of things concerning this very thread IMO.

 

[Biblicist]

But it's certainly not a hard testimony for me to accept. It really kind of explains a number of things concerning this very thread IMO.

Yes, that's why I thought that a simple one line reply would suffice.

 

[Imagican]

Well guys, I've tried my best. Given it due attention and offered a ton of scripture.
Paul wrote to those in Corinth, two letters of rebuke. He had obviously received information that the 'Church at Corinth' was FALLING apart. He had delivered the Gospel there, witnessed the delivery of the Holy Spirit and even lived among them and nourished them in the faith for YEARS.

But a 'time' after his departure, others informed him that the 'Church' he loved was suffering something fierce.

But instead of just LETTING IT GO, he wrote to them at least twice trying to get them back on the proper path.

So he addressed SPECIFIC issues that he had heard they were having problems with. ONE: an inability to properly judge those joining in the gathering who were faithful verses those that were still intentionally living in sin. TWO: the members seemed more focused on PERSONAL edification than that which brings edification to the Body. And his words indicated clearly that they were seeking signs and gifts and attention that made them FEEL good. Each focusing on their OWN sensuality rather than the Holy Spirit. They wanted to continue receiving that FIRST feeling upon introduction rather than desiring to become MATURE. In other words, they had lost track of the ENTIRE purpose of the Gospel and instead of sharing, they were only concerned with benefited THEMSELVES.

In NO OTHER Epistle that we KNOW of did Paul EVER address the issue of the use of tongues EXCEPT in the Epistles written to those in Corinth. This IN AND OF ITSELF shows that those in Corinth were struggling with the issue that NO OTHER 'church' Paul had established was suffering.

And the ONLY encouragement Paul offered in his Epistles to the Corinthians was to GROW UP. Put away 'childish things' and seek to become MATURE in Christ.

Forbid not, (he couldn't say that tongues didn't exist for they certainly did), but RATHER, (that means that: INSTEAD), seek after speaking in words of UNDERSTANDING. It couldn't be MORE clear that he was begging them to STOP doing what they doing and do what they were SUPPOSE to do instead. And in this subject, it is obvious that there were those in The Church at Corinth that were somehow abusing what they THOUGHT was 'the gift of tongues'.

But it is also CLEAR that they were confused. For if they were NOT doing something WRONG, Paul wouldn't have had to offer the RULES of tongues so that they could SEE the difference between what they were DOING to the TRUTH. And we KNOW this is true for he NEVER had to instruct any OTHER 'church' in such a manner.

Most scholars recognize that there have spiritual possession in just about every religion that's ever existed in one form or another. It is proposed that in Corinth, since it was a major TRADE hub, that there were many many many different religions there. And it's not only possible but likely that some of these religions may very well have practiced possession so far as 'speaking in tongues', GIBBERISH controlled by the possessing spirit. And it's just as likely that many that Paul encountered upon his original visit were members of just such 'religions'. And what happened was, those of the previous religions that practiced possession, after a time after Paul left, started reverting back into their previous pagan ways. That they had introduced and started practicing their previous pagan "TONGUES" or possession that existed BEFORE Paul introduced them to the Holy Spirit. And since they had YET to mature in Christ, they were oblivious to the TRUTH. They BELIEVED that the tongues they were practicing were supplied by the Holy Spirit when in truth, they were a product of 'some other spirit'. And because of the ATTENTION they received when speaking in these 'unknown tongues', (the people witnessing looking upon them as MORE holy or MORE 'spirit filled', instead of even contemplating the TRUTH, they simply used this form of self edification more and more, thus, becoming more and more separated FROM the Holy Spirit instead of growing INTO the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, I can't prove a single word. I do have the epistles though. And I can add this: regardless of your attempted judgement, I can attest to the FACT that much that has been revealed to me has been revealed NOT through the black and white words inked upon pieces of paper. I have NEVER 'just read' the Bible. When I read or study I 'ask', 'seek' and "KNOCK". I pray before opening the book that God through His Holy Spirit GUIDE my understanding instead of simply following my OWN understanding. I don't SEEK justification of MY understanding or what I WANT to believe. I open myself up as a BLANK slate and allow the Holy Spirit to DEFINE those words instead of trying to MAKE UP my OWN definition. For I did NOT live during the time the Bible was written and much has taken place to alter understanding since. So I leave it up to the SAME Spirit that existed then as exists NOW to offer understanding and conviction.

And when reading the letters to the Corinthians, it is CLEAR that Paul did not write to them about the areas they were suffering to ENCOURAGE them to CONTINUE to suffer. He was doing his best to encourage them to WAKE UP and TURN BACK.

So any 'church' or group of believers that attempts to use Paul's words of REBUKE as ENCOURAGEMENT to continue in the same practices are utterly confused about the message. More concerned with justification of their OWN self edification to the point that they aren't even able to comprehend the REAL message. Blinding themselves INTENTIONALLY in order to favor SELF over TRUTH.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

We are all given understanding according to what we can bare. But that does NOT mean that we are all given DIFFERENT understanding.

What this means is that the Holy Spirit is ONLY able to offer TRUTH. More truth to some than others. But NEVER is the Holy Spirit able to offer ANYTHING other THAN the truth.

So this means that if THREE people have DIFFERENT understanding of the same subject, then either ALL are incorrect, or ONE is correct and the other two incorrect.

There are NOT 'two', or 'three', or 'four' DIFFERENT Holy SpiritS. There is but ONE. And ALL that is delivered through the Holy Spirit is TRUTH. NOTHING else.

So often I hear those that insist that there are MANY paths to the TRUTH. That God reveals to each DIFFERENTLY.

That couldn't be FURTHER from the TRUTH. THE God and Father of Jesus Christ CANNOT deliver a DIFFERENT truth to one man than another. While able to deliver MORE truth to some than others, that TRUTH is the SAME regardless of the AMOUNT delivered.

For the TRUE Body is UNITED in TRUTH THROUGH Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the SAME with ALL that are a part of the TRUE Body of Christ.

And we exhibit our FAITH by how we TREAT each other. For it is HOW we treat each other that determines whether or not the LOVE of God, the Love that IS God dwells within our hearts.

We DO NOT exhibit our FAITH in God by silly ritual or an adherence to silly PRACTICES. That is how PAGANS practiced THEIR religions.

And ALL that 'ritual' that God supplied to the Hebrews/Jews DISAPPEARED or became NULL or VOID or of NONE effect upon the DEATH of Jesus Christ.

No more physical sacrifices. No more burning offers. No more stoning people to death for disobedience. No more 'temples' being the dwelling place of God.

All this was FULFILLED or COMPLETED upon the advent of Christ.

The 'gifts of the Spirit' were given to the apostles in order to FORM the 'church'. Once formed to the extent it could perpetuate itself, there was NO LONGER a NEED for the 'gifts'. For NOW we are live BY FAITH. Not by rituals or gifts or SIGNS. For those that truly submit themselves to the Holy Spirit don't NEED childish SIGNS or RITUALS or GIFTS to maintain their FAITH.

Most that insist upon the continuation of these 'childish' ritual and gifts and such clearly SHOW their immaturity in Christ the moment someone like me comes along and tries to explain it. For IMMEDIATELY you become ANGRY and start ATTACKING MY faith. Just as a child would if I were to take away his pacifier. Not concerned with it being TIME for the pacifier to BE taken away. Only concerned with their FEELINGS about wanting to KEEP their pacifier. To the extent that they would choose a path of ANGER and RESENTMENT rather than any TRUE understanding or SHARING of the LOVE they have been commanded to share. ONLY concerned with how it makes them FEEL to give up the pacifier, not with the fact that giving up the pacifier is one of the FIRST steps in GROWING UP and becoming MATURE. Instead they are ONLY concerned with the comfort the pacifier offers. Leaning upon IT instead of the TRUTH.

The majority of the gifts that were FIRST offered were to START the 'church'. They were NEVER meant to be the FOCUS of the 'church' or it's members. That is WHY Paul BEGGED those in Corinth to FOCUS on that which MATTERS rather than THEMSELVES. And he plainly illustrated that what matters MOST is 'Charity'. NOT tongues, NOT prophecy, NOT healings or even teaching. But even went so far to offer that NOT ONE OF THESE THINGS MEANS ANYTHING if not practiced WITH the intent being CHARITY: the sharing of oneself with another or others including God and His Son.

The gibberish that many insist is 'tongues', if not understood by the speaker or those witnessing, is MEANINGLESS unless it offers SOME sort of understanding or instruction. It is UTTER 'self edification' to the point of SELF deception. For if it offers NO edification to the Body, it is NOT supplied BY or THROUGH the Holy Spirit.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Hillsage]

The understanding given to us leads to a different summarization of Paul's purpose for the rebuke. A purpose which has brought us to a conclusion 'we walk in'. This 'conclusion' is evidenced toward the end of Paul's two letters of rebuke;

1CO 14:39 So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues; 40 but all things should be done decently and in order.

So we end with one position believing our talk is gibberish. Whereas we believe the opposing view is unscriptural gibberish. Paul's rebuke was never for 'us having' an unknown tongue. It was always about misuse of different tongues. And it's misuse, which still goes on today unfortunately. But then, the 'unlearned' and 'ignorant' according to scripture, are still with us too.

So, for any who are lurking but still seeking the truth, just believe scripture when it says; 'if' you've been called of God 'the promise of the gift of supernatural power, from the Holy Spirit' at Pentecost is still available for you.

ACT 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

If you aren't called as the scripture above declares, then we can only assume that it simply isn't for you to ever 'see' that truth in scripture.

 

[Biblicist]

Well guys, I've tried my best. Given it due attention and offered a ton of scripture.

That was a great opening but sadly we would probably view your efforts as being along the lines of those who were (hypothetically) trying to re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic during its last hours. Sadly, their ship had not only sailed but it was doomed and ready to depart for the depths.

But I really did like your opening line.

Paul wrote to those in Corinth, two letters of rebuke. He had obviously received information that the 'Church at Corinth' was FALLING apart. He had delivered the Gospel there, witnessed the delivery of the Holy Spirit and even lived among them and nourished them in the faith for YEARS.

“Falling apart”! Now that’s an interesting perspective where I am at a loss as to how you come up with that idea. At the beginning of First Corinthians we see Paul praising them with;

(1Co 1:4-9 NASB) I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.​

As Corinth was possibly the main Christian center of the day where most of the East-West trade passed through the city, then Paul would have made great efforts to ensure that the Corinthians had everything right. As Corinth was the cross-roads between the various parts of the Empire, whatever occurred at Corinth would have had a major impact on the other Churches. If I had a choice between Corinth and the quickly decaying churches in the Galatian region, then I would definately go for Corinth where Corinth probably reflects our contemporary Western mindset in many ways.

In NO OTHER Epistle that we KNOW of did Paul EVER address the issue of the use of tongues EXCEPT in the Epistles written to those in Corinth. This IN AND OF ITSELF shows that those in Corinth were struggling with the issue that NO OTHER 'church' Paul had established was suffering.

Then I suppose you also reject the Lord’s Table as this is the only place that he adds in correctives, which by your own words, must mean that the Lord’s Table is only for babes. Are you suggesting that the improper actions of the Corinthians during the Lord’s Table were unique to Corinth!

Would you be content if Paul had of included three chapters in every book that he wrote or would that really be enough for you? As Paul expected that each of his letters would be distributed to the other Churches then why would he see the need to repeat himself when he has already provided a massive amount of material on the ministry of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Imagican]

That was a great opening but sadly we would probably view your efforts as being along the lines of those who were (hypothetically) trying to re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic during its last hours. Sadly, their ship had not only sailed but it was doomed and ready to depart for the depths.

But I really did like your opening line.

Can't argue with anything you offered.


“Falling apart”! Now that’s an interesting perspective where I am at a loss as to how you come up with that idea. At the beginning of First Corinthians we see Paul praising them with;

(1Co 1:4-9 NASB) I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

Just note the tense I have highlighted. I would suggest that the last few lines were more a matter of WISHFUL thinking and attempted encouragement than any sort of FACT. But the important issue is that Paul is making statement concerning the PAST when using words such as 'was' 'were'. An obvious reference to the time he spent among them in the PAST.​

As Corinth was possibly the main Christian center of the day where most of the East-West trade passed through the city, then Paul would have made great efforts to ensure that the Corinthians had everything right. As Corinth was the cross-roads between the various parts of the Empire, whatever occurred at Corinth would have had a major impact on the other Churches. If I had a choice between Corinth and the quickly decaying churches in the Galatian region, then I would definately go for Corinth where Corinth probably reflects our contemporary Western mindset in many ways.

And I accept your opinion. You are certainly free to speculate on such matters. But that doesn't alter the gist of BOTH epistles. In no other epistle did Paul threaten to return with a ROD. No other epistle did he state those whom he wrote to were incapable of even digesting MILK. And the specifics of the epistles plainly point to a 'church' that was stumbling in a bad way. A 'church' Paul obviously feared was 'falling apart'. Just READ the things he pointed out in his letter and it's CLEAR that he was feeding them like BABIES. Certainly wasn't feeding them any MEAT which he stated was his HOPE at the TIME. In other words, the indication is that comparing the Church at Corinth to others he had formed, it is obvious that he had expected them to have matured at a much GREATER rate. But to indicate that they were incapable of even handling MILK is a pretty sad state indeed. For that is what BABES in Christ ARE fed and digest. He stated that they weren't even capable of handling MILK.


Then I suppose you also reject the Lord’s Table as this is the only place that he adds in correctives, which by your own words, must mean that the Lord’s Table is only for babes. Are you suggesting that the improper actions of the Corinthians during the Lord’s Table were unique to Corinth!

Not at all. I need suggest nothing. Let's merely examine what Paul's words offer in understanding. The FACT is, they were even ABUSING the meal offered in remembrance. Couldn't even keep that right. For many didn't come to offer submission in truth, but merely to EAT. Others were self centered in seeking the BEST seats, etc........ Paul was forced to point these things out in the hopes of bringing about some introspection and an alteration of their behavior IN the Church.

Would you be content if Paul had of included three chapters in every book that he wrote or would that really be enough for you? As Paul expected that each of his letters would be distributed to the other Churches then why would he see the need to repeat himself when he has already provided a massive amount of material on the ministry of the Holy Spirit?

I personally do NOT believe that Paul had ANY reason to believe that all the epistles he wrote to each church would end up being viewed by all others. I don't BELIEVE that Paul could even envision a time in the future where our present Bible would exist. I THINK that each epistle that he wrote was SPECIFICALLY written to EACH 'church' dealing with issues SPECIFIC to those to whom he was witting.

Over the years as I have studied Paul's epistles, I have, at the beginning of each epistle, in my study Bible, graded EACH one. Some earned As the Corinthians would have earned a FAILING grade. Others mentioned a couple of things therefore in my grading scale would have ranged between Bs and Ds.

If I were to write to you in the beginning of your walk, if I recognized areas where you were stumbling, you can be assured that I would address these issues. That is Exactly what Paul did in almost EVERY Epistle. A couple were basically general letters announcing the journeys of others. And a couple were an attempt to let others know that his incarceration was not hindering HIS faith so as to encourage others not to let persecutions interfere with THEIR faith.

And my content has nothing to do with the issue. I am perfectly content with the epistles Paul wrote to the different 'churches'. I just don't try to read in to them that which doesn't exist nor attempt to alter the subjects or the manner in which they are offered.

In truth, my level of comprehension was always measured in school as 'above average' and my reading skills were often off the charts. As the Bible says, God reveals what one is able to bear. Not bragging, just offering FACT. Some people have a difficult time comprehending what they read. Some people DON'T. In college almost every paper I submitted was not only graded but the instructors more than not offered notes on the pages pointing out just HOW intuitive my understanding truly was. A number of professors openly admitted that I understood things that they NEVER DID. Especially the area of past poetry and modern. While most people were forced to LOOK UP what others had offered in interpretation, it simply came natural to me. Not of MY doing. For I did not form my intellect or mental ability. Born that way. And I often think that maybe it wasn't just random, but meant to be.

So you can insist that Paul's rebuke is somehow PRAISE if you choose. I can't alter what another is able to bear. But I AM able to clearly POINT OUT the difference to any with the capacity to comprehend. I try my best to speak in simple terms that even simple men can understand. I offer MILK if you will for most aren't even capable of accepting THAT, much less anything any deeper. Not bragging. For it is not of my OWN design that my understanding has been offered. Simply stating facts and ANYONE that looks out among the masses can clearly see that there very few that have even a basic understanding of the truth. If they did, they wouldn't be running around in circles acting like babes or WORSE.

The majority presently are stumbling in a manner that makes the Corinthians look like SAINTS. Can't even discern the simplest things concerning subjects such as homosexuality, tithes, gifts, baptisms, or even worship or love. So if they stumble at the basics, surely YOU don't suggest that they possess any significant understanding of that which is DEEPER????

And that is why I try my best to offer what I am able in understanding. And of course, it is the NATURE of babes to resist or rebel. Nothing new under the sun. Kicking and screaming whenever things don't go 'their way' just like children. Trust me, I DO understand.

But that doesn't interfere with my 'planting of seeds'. Someone else will come along and water and we can HOPE that it is capable of making a difference. To ALL? Hardly. I'm not here to 'save the world' or ANYONE. Just attempting to offer some truth in the face of the enemy. And often truth IS capable of leading to TRUE understanding. Maybe not this minute. But eventually what one REMEMBERS is capable of being significant in coming to TRUTH. And therein lies my hope and the purpose of my efforts. I'm certainly not here to reinforce negative behavior or beliefs that are contrary to the Spiritual GROWTH of others. I revel in witnessing positive growth of others through The Spirit. And I refuse to give way to the Devil by patting others on the back and telling them "good job" when it's NOT true. I speak boldly and with authority on the issues that have been revealed. And if you follow what I offer you'll see that I DO NOT speak or even enjoin ALL subjects. Only those that I am capable of offering understanding. The others I'm still working on one at a time.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Biblicist]

I personally do NOT believe that Paul had ANY reason to believe that all the epistles he wrote to each church would end up being viewed by all others. I don't BELIEVE that Paul could even envision a time in the future where our present Bible would exist. I THINK that each epistle that he wrote was SPECIFICALLY written to EACH 'church' dealing with issues SPECIFIC to those to whom he was witting.

Over the years as I have studied Paul's epistles, I have, at the beginning of each epistle, in my study Bible, graded EACH one. Some earned As the Corinthians would have earned a FAILING grade. Others mentioned a couple of things therefore in my grading scale would have ranged between Bs and Ds.

If I were to write to you in the beginning of your walk, if I recognized areas where you were stumbling, you can be assured that I would address these issues. That is Exactly what Paul did in almost EVERY Epistle. A couple were basically general letters announcing the journeys of others. And a couple were an attempt to let others know that his incarceration was not hindering HIS faith so as to encourage others not to let persecutions interfere with THEIR faith.

And my content has nothing to do with the issue. I am perfectly content with the epistles Paul wrote to the different 'churches'. I just don't try to read in to them that which doesn't exist nor attempt to alter the subjects or the manner in which they are offered.

In truth, my level of comprehension was always measured in school as 'above average' and my reading skills were often off the charts. As the Bible says, God reveals what one is able to bear. Not bragging, just offering FACT. Some people have a difficult time comprehending what they read. Some people DON'T. In college almost every paper I submitted was not only graded but the instructors more than not offered notes on the pages pointing out just HOW intuitive my understanding truly was. A number of professors openly admitted that I understood things that they NEVER DID. Especially the area of past poetry and modern. While most people were forced to LOOK UP what others had offered in interpretation, it simply came natural to me. Not of MY doing. For I did not form my intellect or mental ability. Born that way. And I often think that maybe it wasn't just random, but meant to be.

So you can insist that Paul's rebuke is somehow PRAISE if you choose. I can't alter what another is able to bear. But I AM able to clearly POINT OUT the difference to any with the capacity to comprehend. I try my best to speak in simple terms that even simple men can understand. I offer MILK if you will for most aren't even capable of accepting THAT, much less anything any deeper. Not bragging. For it is not of my OWN design that my understanding has been offered. Simply stating facts and ANYONE that looks out among the masses can clearly see that there very few that have even a basic understanding of the truth. If they did, they wouldn't be running around in circles acting like babes or WORSE.

The majority presently are stumbling in a manner that makes the Corinthians look like SAINTS. Can't even discern the simplest things concerning subjects such as homosexuality, tithes, gifts, baptisms, or even worship or love. So if they stumble at the basics, surely YOU don't suggest that they possess any significant understanding of that which is DEEPER????

And that is why I try my best to offer what I am able in understanding. And of course, it is the NATURE of babes to resist or rebel. Nothing new under the sun. Kicking and screaming whenever things don't go 'their way' just like children. Trust me, I DO understand.

But that doesn't interfere with my 'planting of seeds'. Someone else will come along and water and we can HOPE that it is capable of making a difference. To ALL? Hardly. I'm not here to 'save the world' or ANYONE. Just attempting to offer some truth in the face of the enemy. And often truth IS capable of leading to TRUE understanding. Maybe not this minute. But eventually what one REMEMBERS is capable of being significant in coming to TRUTH. And therein lies my hope and the purpose of my efforts. I'm certainly not here to reinforce negative behavior or beliefs that are contrary to the Spiritual GROWTH of others. I revel in witnessing positive growth of others through The Spirit. And I refuse to give way to the Devil by patting others on the back and telling them "good job" when it's NOT true. I speak boldly and with authority on the issues that have been revealed. And if you follow what I offer you'll see that I DO NOT speak or even enjoin ALL subjects. Only those that I am capable of offering understanding. The others I'm still working on one at a time.

Blessings,

MEC

Noted.

 

[Righttruth]

I personally do NOT believe that Paul had ANY reason to believe that all the epistles he wrote to each church would end up being viewed by all others. I don't BELIEVE that Paul could even envision a time in the future where our present Bible would exist. I THINK that each epistle that he wrote was SPECIFICALLY written to EACH 'church' dealing with issues SPECIFIC to those to whom he was witting.

Over the years as I have studied Paul's epistles, I have, at the beginning of each epistle, in my study Bible, graded EACH one. Some earned As the Corinthians would have earned a FAILING grade. Others mentioned a couple of things therefore in my grading scale would have ranged between Bs and Ds.

If I were to write to you in the beginning of your walk, if I recognized areas where you were stumbling, you can be assured that I would address these issues. That is Exactly what Paul did in almost EVERY Epistle. A couple were basically general letters announcing the journeys of others. And a couple were an attempt to let others know that his incarceration was not hindering HIS faith so as to encourage others not to let persecutions interfere with THEIR faith.

And my content has nothing to do with the issue. I am perfectly content with the epistles Paul wrote to the different 'churches'. I just don't try to read in to them that which doesn't exist nor attempt to alter the subjects or the manner in which they are offered.

In truth, my level of comprehension was always measured in school as 'above average' and my reading skills were often off the charts. As the Bible says, God reveals what one is able to bear. Not bragging, just offering FACT. Some people have a difficult time comprehending what they read. Some people DON'T. In college almost every paper I submitted was not only graded but the instructors more than not offered notes on the pages pointing out just HOW intuitive my understanding truly was. A number of professors openly admitted that I understood things that they NEVER DID. Especially the area of past poetry and modern. While most people were forced to LOOK UP what others had offered in interpretation, it simply came natural to me. Not of MY doing. For I did not form my intellect or mental ability. Born that way. And I often think that maybe it wasn't just random, but meant to be.

So you can insist that Paul's rebuke is somehow PRAISE if you choose. I can't alter what another is able to bear. But I AM able to clearly POINT OUT the difference to any with the capacity to comprehend. I try my best to speak in simple terms that even simple men can understand. I offer MILK if you will for most aren't even capable of accepting THAT, much less anything any deeper. Not bragging. For it is not of my OWN design that my understanding has been offered. Simply stating facts and ANYONE that looks out among the masses can clearly see that there very few that have even a basic understanding of the truth. If they did, they wouldn't be running around in circles acting like babes or WORSE.

The majority presently are stumbling in a manner that makes the Corinthians look like SAINTS. Can't even discern the simplest things concerning subjects such as homosexuality, tithes, gifts, baptisms, or even worship or love. So if they stumble at the basics, surely YOU don't suggest that they possess any significant understanding of that which is DEEPER????

And that is why I try my best to offer what I am able in understanding. And of course, it is the NATURE of babes to resist or rebel. Nothing new under the sun. Kicking and screaming whenever things don't go 'their way' just like children. Trust me, I DO understand.

But that doesn't interfere with my 'planting of seeds'. Someone else will come along and water and we can HOPE that it is capable of making a difference. To ALL? Hardly. I'm not here to 'save the world' or ANYONE. Just attempting to offer some truth in the face of the enemy. And often truth IS capable of leading to TRUE understanding. Maybe not this minute. But eventually what one REMEMBERS is capable of being significant in coming to TRUTH. And therein lies my hope and the purpose of my efforts. I'm certainly not here to reinforce negative behavior or beliefs that are contrary to the Spiritual GROWTH of others. I revel in witnessing positive growth of others through The Spirit. And I refuse to give way to the Devil by patting others on the back and telling them "good job" when it's NOT true. I speak boldly and with authority on the issues that have been revealed. And if you follow what I offer you'll see that I DO NOT speak or even enjoin ALL subjects. Only those that I am capable of offering understanding. The others I'm still working on one at a time.

Blessings,

MEC

Excellent analysis!

 

[Righttruth]

Noted.

When you say you are 'full Gospel believer' does it mean you believe in 1 Corinthians chapters 12-14 and that make it full gospel? Or does it mean that you speak unknown tongue that makes you a true believer in Jesus?