The ACLU

[TeddyKGB]

Hi Teddy, I'm not sure what you mean. I think you were disagreeing with my post, but I'm not sure which or how it disagreed. Are you saying that the ACLU doesn't not handle anything that Jesus or God spoke against? I was trying to be sure in my last post that you were being forward, and saying that there is not a single issue. But I think you are saying that any issues the ACLU handle are actually in disagreement between christians, and therefore God has not spoken against any issues the ACLU have worked on? Did I make a mistake inwhat you meant?

Your phrasing is problematic. "What Jesus or God spoke against" is religious absolutism-speak for "my interpretation of certain things in the Bible." You simply cannot semantically manipulate your way into the scenario that has the ACLU opposing the Bible itself.

There is too much ambiguity in any case. I do not doubt that Jesus would condemn the actions of NAMBLA-affiliated individuals. But the ACLU is defending the right of NAMBLA members to speak freely (something that is occasionally labeled, curiously, a "Christian principle"), not to molest children.

Thus, the issue is not, colloquially, Jesus vs. child molesters, but Jesus vs. free speech.

 

[knightlight72]

Like what? On what issues, specifically, has the ACLU opposed the teachings of Jesus?

Sorry, I missed this since I posted almost at the same time.

Simple things such as pornography are usually the most well known. Other lesser known is when the ACLU opposes internet filters at libraries which is inteneded to prevent children from coming across porn sites. There are others, but I think this alone would be enough to make a point that cannot be argued against.

 

[knightlight72]

Your phrasing is problematic. "What Jesus or God spoke against" is religious absolutism-speak for "my interpretation of certain things in the Bible." You simply cannot semantically manipulate your way into the scenario that has the ACLU opposing the Bible itself.

There is too much ambiguity in any case. I do not doubt that Jesus would condemn the actions of NAMBLA-affiliated individuals. But the ACLU is defending the right of NAMBLA members to speak freely (something that is occasionally labeled, curiously, a "Christian principle"), not to molest children.

Thus, the issue is not, colloquially, Jesus vs. child molesters, but Jesus vs. free speech.

Do you feel that christians may have issues with the ACLU because of just the North American Man Boy Love Association? I don't think my point was or prior posts were based onthis, but that the issues ACLU have stood up for which Jesus actually spoke against. Such as lust.

 

[Corey]

This simply underlines my point. Not all values and interests coexist and are by default conflict free.

No...it shows as usual that you lack an understanding of the issues involved.

The Boy Scouts of America are and always have been a religious organization.

No...there have always been religious affirmations in their oath and laws, but they were not used discriminatorily. This interpretation is entirely recent.

For government or people manipulating the government to dictate their secularist or opposing ideology upon them would violate the First Amendment of religious expression. For government to deny access to public facilities and government forums solely on the grounds of religious belief(s) is likewise a violation of the First amendment.

It's clear you have absolutely no idea what privileges the BSA has had. For example, they pay absolutely nothing for the maintenance and use of a vast campground at Fort A.P. Hill, a US Army base. That is not equal access. That is a special privilege, which they recently lost.

Equal access is fine, but they had unfair access to a great many things. Schools would give them preferential treatment, etc. Now they have to wait in line...just like everyone else.

That's what the BSA is whining about.

 

[Archivist]

Simple things such as pornography are usually the most well known. Other lesser known is when the ACLU opposes internet filters at libraries which is inteneded to prevent children from coming across porn sites. There are others, but I think this alone would be enough to make a point that cannot be argued against.

The problem is that the ACLU does not promote pornography in any way. They simply protect people's right to free speech. If that includes defending the right to publish pornography, so be it. They do not advocate to purchase of such material.

Everyone seems to think that Internet filters at public libraries are a wonderful thing. The problem is that in the name of protecting little Johnny from internet porn, an internet filter can prevent a 40-year-old woman from locating potentially lifesaving information about breast cancer. We had a college here in Pennsylvania--Beaver College--that had to change its name because internet filters in high schools were preventing students from accessing the school's web site. It again comes down to a matter of free speech. None of this is anti-Christian per se.

 

[knightlight72]

The problem is that the ACLU does not promote pornography in any way. They simply protect people's right to free speech. If that includes defending the right to publish pornography, so be it. They do not advocate to purchase of such material.

Everyone seems to think that Internet filters at public libraries are a wonderful thing. The problem is that in the name of protecting little Johnny from internet porn, an internet filter can prevent a 40-year-old woman from locating potentially lifesaving information about breast cancer. We had a college here in Pennsylvania--Beaver College--that had to change its name because internet filters in high schools were preventing students from accessing the school's web site. It again comes down to a matter of free speech. None of this is anti-Christian per se.

Hi Archivist. I agree they are basing the stance on the freedom of speech. However, the original post was why christians have issues with the ACLU. So one of the reasons is because the ACLU helps to make sure people have access to porn, something Jesus has spoken against.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

Like what? On what issues, specifically, has the ACLU opposed the teachings of Jesus?

Luke 24:47
and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Matthew 19:4-6
4"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? 6So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Matthew 5:28
But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


You are free to Google some or a combination of:
ACLU
Jesus
public
abstinence
oppressive
nativity
Intelligent Design
Pornography
etc.

With the ever-increasing growth of government into all aspects of our everyday life, the position of all religious expression is to be prohibited if government is in any way related to it is seen as an anti-religious position.
Our First Amendment does not state "devoid of religious expression" nor does it have an amendment that states the "Right not to be offended by religious expression".

Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
http://www.archives.gov/national-archives-experience/charters/bill_of_rights_transcript.html

Of course, I know that there will be disagreement as to what that means. That disagreement is, after all, the feul that keeps this issue continuing to burn.

 

[Archivist]

Hi Archivist. I agree they are basing the stance on the freedom of speech. However, the original post was why christians have issues with the ACLU. So one of the reasons is because the ACLU helps to make sure people have access to porn, something Jesus has spoken against.

Actually Jesus didn't speak against porn. Porn as we know it didn't exist at that time. He spoke about lust. The ACLU does not in any way promote lust. They simply support freedom of speech.

 

[knightlight72]

Actually Jesus didn't speak against porn. Porn as we know it didn't exist at that time. He spoke about lust. The ACLU does not in any way promote lust. They simply support freedom of speech.

What do you mean? Are you saying porn does not encourage lust? Is this just word play?

What do you mean exactly?

 

[TeddyKGB]

Do you feel that christians may have issues with the ACLU because of just the North American Man Boy Love Association?

No, but it is an example that comes up regularly.

I don't think my point was or prior posts were based onthis, but that the issues ACLU have stood up for which Jesus actually spoke against. Such as lust.

That is too vague to be meaningful. I would venture to say that the ACLU has never issued a press release defending the right to lust.

This has to be decided on a case-by-case basis.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

What do you mean? Are you saying porn does not encourage lust? Is this just word play?

What do you mean exactly?

I wouldn't bother:
Any argument of pornography isn't lust is not going to stick to the OP topic and I find the assertion empty from the beginning.

 

[knightlight72]

No, but it is an example that comes up regularly.

That is too vague to be meaningful. I would venture to say that the ACLU has never issued a press release defending the right to lust.

This has to be decided on a case-by-case basis.

Since this isn't the first time you have dealt with this, (judging by that you having said which comes up regularly, and that can onl happen if you have dealt with this before), then you likely have heard other arguments against the ACLU.

I think we can conclude that we have differing views, but I feel confident that if this has been gone over before, you also understand the christian viewpoint enough to accept they have their reasons for disagreement with the ACLU in some cases.

 

[knightlight72]

I wouldn't bother:
Any argument of pornography isn't lust is not going to stick to the OP topic and I find the assertion empty from the beginning.

I understand. But the post by Archivist says he's a Lutheren, and I figured I wanted to hear more about his views. I feel confident we can come to a common point on lust and why the ACLU does work with this issue.

 

[MidnightBlue]

Simple things such as pornography are usually the most well known. Other lesser known is when the ACLU opposes internet filters at libraries which is inteneded to prevent children from coming across porn sites. There are others, but I think this alone would be enough to make a point that cannot be argued against.

You could certainly make an argument against pornography from Jesus' teachings, although he never addressed the issue directly. But that has nothing to do with prohibiting pornography or with internet filters at libraries. Nowhere does Jesus teach us to force other people to follow his teachings.

 

[ChristianCenturion]

I understand. But the post by Archivist says he's a Lutheren, and I figured I wanted to hear more about his views. I feel confident we can come to a common point on lust and why the ACLU does work with this issue.

I understand.
I wish you well in the endeavor.

 

[MidnightBlue]

Hi Archivist. I agree they are basing the stance on the freedom of speech. However, the original post was why christians have issues with the ACLU. So one of the reasons is because the ACLU helps to make sure people have access to porn, something Jesus has spoken against.

The ACLU defends free speech. It does not defend the content of what people say. Jesus does not teach us to forbid free speech.

 

[knightlight72]

You could certainly make an argument against pornography from Jesus' teachings, although he never addressed the issue directly. But that has nothing to do with prohibiting pornography or with internet filters at libraries. Nowhere does Jesus teach us to force other people to follow his teachings.

Actually my view of the question was why christian might have issue with the ACLU.

While forcing one's view is one thing, making sure people have access to porn can be opposed.

 

[knightlight72]

The ACLU defends free speech. It does not defend the content of what people say. Jesus does not teach us to forbid free speech.

If you go back to the start of why these things were being asked, you'll see the reason was because people were looking for why christians may have issues with the ACLU. The issue christian have issues with the ACLU is because the ACLU opposes things that result in encouragement of issues spoken against in the bible.

I can appreciate that you have walked into the middle of a "conversation", but there was a reason for many of these posts.

 

[MidnightBlue]

Actually my view of the question was why christian might have issue with the ACLU.

While forcing one's view is one thing, making sure people have access to porn can be opposed.

And when some Bowdler decides that the Bible is pornographic, you'll be glad the ACLU fought to let people read what they want.

 

[MidnightBlue]

If you go back to the start of why these things were being asked, you'll see the reason was because people were looking for why christians may have issues with the ACLU. The issue christian have issues with the ACLU is because the ACLU opposes things that result in encouragement of issues spoken against in the bible.

I can appreciate that you have walked into the middle of a "conversation", but there was a reason for many of these posts.

No, I read the entire thread. But you're missing the point: Jesus does not teach us that we must prevent other people from doing things that contradict his teachings. The liberties the ACLU fights for are vital to the free exercise of Christianity. So what's the problem?