The Abortion Question

[Rafael]

Other translations clearly indicate that the premature birth that causes no harm to the child will not incur the "life for life" penalty. If the child is harmed and dies from the premature birth, then death is required of the offender.
Abortion isn't accidental, and the way it is being performed today is so gruesome it can barely be talked about - such as partial birth abortion.

Ex. 21:22 (NKJV) "If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23 "But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,
Ex. 21:22 (NLT) "Now suppose two people are fighting, and in the process, they hurt a pregnant woman so her child is born prematurely. If no further harm results, then the person responsible must pay damages in the amount the woman’s husband demands and the judges approve.
23 But if any harm results, then the offender must be punished according to the injury. If the result is death, the offender must be executed.

Ex. 21:22 (NIV) "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows.
23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life,

 

[nb_christseeker]

if a woman commits adultery, she is to be stoned.
but Jesus does not condemn her. He is obligated to condemn her, but he takes that condemnation on himself on the cross, and she is acquitted. His blood covers her adultery. "VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, EVERY SIN AND BLASPHEMY OF THE DESCENDENTS OF MEN SHALL BE FORGIVEN" Mark 3:28. Is abortion blaspheming the holy spirit? no, abortion is at worse murder. is murder covered by the blood of Christ? you bet it is. love covers a multitude of sins.

 

[Jinn_Ku]

Yes, but Jesus commanded her to "go forth and sin no more." The implication is she is forgiven because she repented. Repenting means not intending to repeat the sin.

If a woman had an abortion, and realized it is murder and repented, she is forgiven. If a doctor refuses realizes the act in which he partakes is murder and repents, he will be forgiven. If either of them continue to live in sin by doing this abomination again, they have not repented. Nowhere in the Bible has a man been forgiven without repenting.

 

[nb_christseeker]

right, the first word out of Jesus' mouth after the wilderness temptation was 'repent' (...the kingdom of God is at hand). the adultress who was caught in the act and about to be stoned was clearly in a state of repentance.

 

[searchingforGodlyanswers]

1. Is the fetus human?
Yes, after conception when the sperm and eggs meet to make a living zygote, a new creation by God. Some people believe sperm and eggs are alive preconception, but is that really the baby (I think since there is not a new creation no but others may differ in opinion...)
2. Is the fetus alive prior to the abortion?
Not in all cases. Tests suchs as ultrasounds can confirm if the living baby has a heart beat or is dead before the termination. Some people can carry their dead babies to term and give birth to a dead baby, and some cannot because infection may ravage their bodies like it did with baby and they may have to terminate.

3. Is the fetus alive after the abortion?
In a very rare case, a girl lived through her abortion with no defects and is a living testimony to God. In some emergency cases, the baby may live for a while afterwards. In other cases the baby may already be dead or dying before the birth.


4. If the fetus is human, alive prior to the abortion, and without life after the abortion, how can you (or any one else) claim the act which ends a human's life is not murder?
If the mother dies too because she and her husband neglect to get the dead baby out of her, then wouldn't that be a case of murdering the mother by neglect? But then that would not meet the criteria of #4 that he or she (the baby) is alive before the abortion.

I personally am appalled and disturbed at people who abort their babies for their own pleasure and/or at their whim or someone elses. If I had a choice and the money, I would love to be able to help those who have a choice.

Thanks be and glory be to God in what happened in Vrunca's case. Thanks be and glory be to God in what happened with my first born. And yes, thanks be and glory be to God in what happened when I had my second, whose fully formed body was cold when she was born.
If it is not a dire going to die any minute-hour emergency situation, by all means get another doctor who will listen to your beliefs on God and get people to pray over your child and womb, and even annoint you if there's still time.
In my situation both times, there was no time. I cannot explain why one lived and the other died, but for His glory, and yet I still do not understand... I am still reeling from the pain of my recent stillbirth.
My question is should I have gone with her or stayed to take care of my living daughter. I am still grieving over my second, and a part of me wishes I had gone with her or that I/the doctors could have saved her. I even had the hospital chaplain and a nurse and my father pray for her. I had no time to go from doctor to doctor, I was bleeding too profusely and time was of the essence and I waited as long as I could on God to perform a miracle. Should I have killed myself or allowed an infection to become septic in me through neglect just to prove a point or to test God? Or did I do the right thing? My body was already in labor and she was coming. If she had stayed inside me while my body was fighting so hard I would have died. To prolong it (the pregnancy) would have meant both our deaths, and yet I prolonged as much as I could-until I could barely lift my head. The doctor refused to even take the placenta claiming it too was too infected for me to donate. Another doctor told me that I became as sick as I did because I waited so long before taking a pill to help facioitate what my body was already doing. I told the doctor I had a sliver of hope for a miracle and was waiting on God. Maybe my husband is right: that the miracle was that God kept me alive, and that it was her time to go.
Had I died to keep her alive, she would have died too. She wasn't even alive when I gave birth to her, she was already dead. The doctor's did many tests on me and tested her before this happened.
I am only posting this so that women who are dying and do not have time will not be killing themselves and their babies through neglect. I know for certain in another day and time, I would have died, and had I gone to another hospital that would have sent me home, I would have died along with my baby.

My husband tells me I made the right decision. There was not even enough time to notify him as my body was already in labor before I went to the hospital and he was at work and there was no phone during the night shift to notify him.
Would I make the same choice again? I would like to think that if I did not have another child at home waiting for me to come back through a miracle of God, that I would go with my baby to the grave, but even now I still do not know for certain what tomorrow may bring. It hurts me this much that I think and part of me wishes I had died with her, and a part of me did go with her.

 

[searchingforGodlyanswers]

To finish answering question 4:
I cannot say it is not murder if all the criteria are met, but if God decides it is time for a baby to spontaneously abort/miscarry/be a stillbirth, then that is His righteous & holy decision.

There is a place in the Bible in which a woman, upon hearing bad news, went into labor pains and died, but her child lived. Some people debate if the part in the OT where a woman is to take a test to prove if she is adultering and her thigh swells or shrivels and she is barren all the rest of her days is an abortion or if it's something to make her barren. I cannot find these passages but I did find passages on David's child (already born) by Uriah dying: 2 Samuel 12. I particularly notice how even David fasted and pleaded and lay on the ground and why: verses 16-17, verse 20-23.

 

[Jennifer615]

Abortion is cold blooded murder. A "fetus" is a human being in one particular stage of life. The life of an unborn child IS as important as the life of a born child.

I have debated on other pro-life/pro-choice forums, and pro-choice people come up with so many scenarios on why a woman would need an abortion. They often use situations where 1) the woman's life is in danger 2) rape or 3) severe deformities. Well these situations are less than 4% of all abortions performed.

I will give my opinion here.

When a woman's life is in danger, the doctors should do EVERYTHING POSSIBLE to save both the mother and the baby. Maybe the baby should be delivered by C-section earlier and treated as a premature baby. If however an abortion is the ONLY way to save the woman's life, then the woman must come first. These situations are very rare, less than 1%.

In the case of rape, well what can I say. Rape is a horrific thing. The poor woman didn't ask for it and will take a long time to heal from it. However, there is still a fully fledged human being being created and he/she should have to give up their life for the sin of the father. The government should help these woman financially/emotionally etc etc, and the rapist should not have any rights at all (in Australia the rapist actually has parental rights! If the birth mother wants to adopt the child out, the rapist can keep the child)!

In the case of severe deformities, well each situation is different. In the case of downs syndrome etc, then a definite NO. If however the baby is so terribly deformed that it probably won't survive the pregnancy, or long after, then maybe an abortion should be a very discouraged last resort.

For the 96% of abortions which are performed on healthy women and babies, then that is definitely wrong. That is, again, cold blooded murder. No career, study, lifestyle etc etc etc etc justifies taking an innocent life! There is always adoption and there are thousands of couples with open arms who cannot have children waiting to adopt a baby.

 

[Jinn_Ku]

I look at it like this. No baby is created by a purely physical union. God makes life, He only uses the union of two individuals as the means to do so. To undo what God has done is to say He is at fault, in error, made a mistake, ect. It is to say God made a mistake in creating that life, and only the woman and her doctor are wise enough to terminate the pregnacy and correct the problem God so foolishly made. This applies in all cases of pregnacy, regardless of circumstances.

Even if the doctor says, "Lady, there is no way you're going to walk away from this." All things are possible to those who believe. (As around, nearly every Christian knows of someone who has been healed dispite the all-wise advise of their doctors) God did not give you that child by accident. He knew what would happen to you during the pregnacy and beyond, and chose you to carry that child at that time in your life anyway. He knows about the rape He used to bring that child into excistance. He can use the act to bring a great joy into that mother's life. To abort the child is to say God is in error by creating that life. That is not a claim I would dare to make.

 

[Q-La]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3846525.stm

Just some new info here

 

[Sketcher]

Women I respect would give up their own lives to save their children. Abortion is the practice of killing their children for the sake of their own dreams.

 

[Anti-Fear]

The standard christian stance on abortion is a strict "no," and this view makes sense under normal circumstances, but I would like to make a few points and them see what other views exist on the issue.

1) Is a fetus in the womb of "equal value" as a born child?

I think Exodus 21:22-23 (KJV) answers this question:

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine]. 23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life...

Clearly, if someone kills the fetus in the womb, it is not equal to harming the woman. It is simply a fine.

2) Is a woman's life more valuable then that of an unborn child?

I think the above verse answers this question as well, but I will say a bit more on this topic from experience. I've heard agurements from some Christians that abortion is wrong under any circumstance, even when the woman's life is at risk. Does any believe that the potential of a healthy baby is worth the risk of killing the mother? What if the life of the woman and the baby are both at risk?

3) Do women have the right to choose the fate of their body?

I hear many men talking about this issue like they understand it completely. A women who is raped, abused, or whatever has a big choice ahead of her and no one can know what this is like. Does a women have the right to choose what happens to her body...isn't this between her and God, not her and all the men and women against it?

1) Yes fetus is person.
2) I think they're equally valuable. Actually before Roe vs. Wade, the abortion was allowed if 3 doctors agreed that it could harm the woman for sure to keep the child.
3) No, women don't have the right to choose the fate of their body, because the child is not their body, but a unique person.

 

[panterapat]

Life is sacred. The preborn baby also has an eternal soul.
Abortion is a most horrific crime.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Check this out.....

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/didache-lake.html

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

From the Didache:

CHAPTER 2

The second part of the teaching

1 But the second commandment of the teaching is this: 2 "Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; "thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods"; 3 thou shalt not commit perjury, "thou shalt not bear false witness"; thou shalt not speak evil; thou shalt not bear malice. 4 Thou shalt not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is the snare of death. 5 Thy speech shall not be false nor vain, but completed in action. 6 Thou shalt not be covetous nor extortionate, nor a hypocrite, nor malignant, nor proud; thou shalt make no evil plan against thy neighbour. 7 Thou shalt hate no man; but some thou shalt reprove, and for some shalt thou pray, and some thou shalt love more than thine own life.

 

[TwinCrier]

How do you see that in those verses? "so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow" makes it clear that the fetus survives. That's why the next part reads "and if ANY mischief follow... life for life." In any case, this verse is referring to men beating a pregnant woman. Certainly even the staunchest pro-choicer doesn't sanction harming pregnant women. Kind of defeats the purpose of the "pro-choice" movement.

The standard christian stance on abortion is a strict "no," and this view makes sense under normal circumstances, but I would like to make a few points and them see what other views exist on the issue.

1) Is a fetus in the womb of "equal value" as a born child?

I think Exodus 21:22-23 (KJV) answers this question:

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine]. 23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life...

Clearly, if someone kills the fetus in the womb, it is not equal to harming the woman. It is simply a fine.

2) Is a woman's life more valuable then that of an unborn child?

I think the above verse answers this question as well, but I will say a bit more on this topic from experience. I've heard agurements from some Christians that abortion is wrong under any circumstance, even when the woman's life is at risk. Does any believe that the potential of a healthy baby is worth the risk of killing the mother? What if the life of the woman and the baby are both at risk?

3) Do women have the right to choose the fate of their body?

I hear many men talking about this issue like they understand it completely. A women who is raped, abused, or whatever has a big choice ahead of her and no one can know what this is like. Does a women have the right to choose what happens to her body...isn't this between her and God, not her and all the men and women against it?

 

[hola]

There is a lot posted and I don't have too much time to read what everybody has said or to answer every question.

I believe that abortion is a sin. Why? Well, by understanding what God has shown in his creation, I see that God has given us an illustration with a man, wife, and bearing children. It all comes from having a correct interpretation and understanding of the Kingdom of God. Jesus said the kingdom of God is WITHIN you. That is if you have received Christ, he is IN you. A woman with child represents this very thing-the Spirit of God's Son in your heart. Paul was concerned with the Galatians and said "my little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed IN you" (Galatians 4:19). So if having a child in a mother's womb represent Christ being IN one's heart, then abortion is an illustration of one aborting the very life of God in them-spiritual abortion. This goes against the "once saved, always saved teaching", which I've covered in some of my posted topics "The Kingdom of God-what I believe about eternal security", etc. Reconsider the parable of the sower and him sowing seed in Luke 8 (verses 5-7 & 11-14. Remember the seed represents the Word of God, and the Word of God IS Jesus Christ!!! See John 1:1-3, 14).

So, if abortion represents aborting the Spirit of God in one's life, that is a clear representation of God being separated from one's life. And if we define sin, we know it's anything that will separate us from God!!!! Do you now see how abortion is a sin?!!!

 

[HolyGuardianAngels]

The standard christian stance on abortion is a strict "no," and this view makes sense under normal circumstances, but I would like to make a few points and them see what other views exist on the issue.

1) Is a fetus in the womb of "equal value" as a born child?

I think Exodus 21:22-23 (KJV) answers this question:

22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart [from her], and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges [determine]. 23 And if [any] mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life...

Clearly, if someone kills the fetus in the womb, it is not equal to harming the woman. It is simply a fine.

2) Is a woman's life more valuable then that of an unborn child?

I think the above verse answers this question as well, but I will say a bit more on this topic from experience. I've heard agurements from some Christians that abortion is wrong under any circumstance, even when the woman's life is at risk. Does any believe that the potential of a healthy baby is worth the risk of killing the mother? What if the life of the woman and the baby are both at risk?

3) Do women have the right to choose the fate of their body?

I hear many men talking about this issue like they understand it completely. A women who is raped, abused, or whatever has a big choice ahead of her and no one can know what this is like. Does a women have the right to choose what happens to her body...isn't this between her and God, not her and all the men and women against it?

First, let's look at destiny.

The cells of a baby calf, in a cow, are destined to become a calf and not a human . . .


And, so with a human child. . ..
The cells in a pregnant woman are destined to be a human baby and not a cow . . .


Because, the intention of the Human pregnant woman, is to give birth to a human child, who may grow into an adult . . . It is then MURDER, if you abort the baby at any stage after conception . . .



Here, intention is pivotal.

The pregnant woman, has become pregnant not in an effort to give birth to a calf or dolphin; but, to a human child. Any cells that may become human, may not be killed . . .







Happy Easter

 

[MarieRose]

A baby is considered an unwanted burden, so people kill it before it is born. How far will we go though? Back in ancient Rome they laid unwanted babies out on the hillside to die (many of them were saved by Christians, incidentely) Will our society soon start doing the same? Abortion is only the beginning of moral decay and getting rid of those deemed unworthy of life.