The Abomination of Desolation

shturt678

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When you compare Luke’s account of the fall of Jerusalem with Matthew’s account, there’s one glaring difference which is that Luke doesn’t say when you see the desolating abomination to flee to the mountains but rather when you see that Jerusalem is surrounded by armies to flee to the mountains. If the desolating abomination was to occur before the flight from Jerusalem then surely Luke would have mentioned it as well, which just confirms to me that Matthew’s chronology of events isn’t to be taken literally.

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(Luke 21:20-24)

The ol' old context and aspect of the writer my friend. Luke assumes the readers have already grasped Matthew and Mark, ie, Jesus has already said that Jerusalem's desolation is at hand. He now adds more, namely that these are "days of vengeance" being the Jerusalem shall receive this punishment for all her unbelief, and her crimes agaisnt the gospel (Lk.21:22).

btw I mentioned the hardships measured in levels of blood earlier and now mentioning 1,100,000 Jews were slain and 97,000 carried away as captive slaves, ie, sort of hardship - Josephus, Wars.

Just ol' old Jack's view
 
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plmarquette

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When the temple is rebuilt (have a prefab one ready to go up)
When have red heffer for sacrifice (are breeding them)
When the Levitical Priesthood restarts...
When the Antichrist enters the temple, and says "worship me" not God,
that is the Abominiation of Desolation...Defile the Holy and Holy of Holies
 
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Rev Randy

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When the temple is rebuilt (have a prefab one ready to go up)
When have red heffer for sacrifice (are breeding them)
When the Levitical Priesthood restarts...
When the Antichrist enters the temple, and says "worship me" not God,
that is the Abominiation of Desolation...Defile the Holy and Holy of Holies

The holy of holies is in a prefab building? Not according to scripture. Pretty sure that veil was rent.
 
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shturt678

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The holy of holies is in a prefab building? Not according to scripture. Pretty sure that veil was rent.

:thumbsup: Jesus was in the business of renting curtains for sure, ie, curtain hung in the front of Holy Place if I recall - hope the Jewish priest had a day job as lost his once a year cleansing job.

just ol' old Jack

btw for others, if someone has the Truth on this thread for example only, and that Truth is not agaped, (IIThess.2:10b) the antichrist comes in to dwell in one's own "sanctuary" resulting in a Barris forever gong show. Maybe Barris was before you folk's time?

Forget the 3rd Temple routine, ie, not going to happen.
 
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Edward65

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The ol' old context and aspect of the writer my friend. Luke assumes the readers have already grasped Matthew and Mark, ie, Jesus has already said that Jerusalem's desolation is at hand. He now adds more, namely that these are "days of vengeance" being the Jerusalem shall receive this punishment for all her unbelief, and her crimes agaisnt the gospel (Lk.21:22).

btw I mentioned the hardships measured in levels of blood earlier and now mentioning 1,100,000 Jews were slain and 97,000 carried away as captive slaves, ie, sort of hardship - Josephus, Wars.

Just ol' old Jack's view

Although Luke in 1:1-4 refers to others who have previously compiled narratives of what happened, Luke’s comment about writing an orderly account for Theophilus doesn’t in my view nesssarily assume any prior knowledge on the part of the reader, because in saying he was doing so in order for Theophilus to have certainity concerning the things he’d learnt, implies that he (Luke) was retelling everything again and in detail.

However regardless of this I don’t agree with the view that the abomination of desolation refers to what you stated in one of your posts:

“The abomination of desolation occurred in the Temple prior to the siege under Titus of course. It took place when the Zealots, who held the Temple under arms, admtted the good ol' Idumeans and as a result the Temple was deluged with the level of blood of only 8,000 victims. But I think the main point is these men trampled upon all the laws of men and loled at the laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they loled them as the tricks of jugglers.”

The problem with this is that it’s not compatible with what Paul writes in 2 Thess 2 about “the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God” (ESV).

I always wonder why some who describe themselves as Lutherans on their masthead can’t see that Luther was right in identifying the Papacy as the Antichrist. They presumably agree with justification through faith alone and yet somehow don’t agree that the popes in condemning this and claiming that their teachings are to be followed instead don’t fulfil the criteria for being the Antichrist. Would any Lutherans who reject the Papacy as the Antichrist care to explain why they don’t share Luther’s identification of the Papacy as the Antichrist?

Luther writes: “No one has so subtly, so astutely, fulfilled the characteristics of the Antichrist as has the pope….The spirit of the pope is the subtlest of them all: he acknowledges the coming of Christ, retains apostolic words, and apostolic preachings, but the kernal he has removed: the truth that Christ came to save sinners…. For form’s sake he has kept everything, but in reality he has taken everything away. This calls for art and cunning: to pollute everything while maintaining the best of appearances, to say that Christ died for us and at the same time to teach that we render satisfaction”.
 
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shturt678

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Although Luke in 1:1-4 refers to others who have previously compiled narratives of what happened, Luke’s comment about writing an orderly account for Theophilus doesn’t in my view nesssarily assume any prior knowledge on the part of the reader, because in saying he was doing so in order for Theophilus to have certainity concerning the things he’d learnt, implies that he (Luke) was retelling everything again and in detail.

Frankly I would hope that we would agree to agree more as pretty much agree with the history of your past posts, ie, only issues with this one thread.

Maybe your correct again, ie, let's relook at Lk.21:20, etc. Jesus is answering the question asked in v.7, but in the fullest and the completest manner. He first states the general signs of the end (vs.8-10); then the persecutions that shall start immediately after Pentecost (vs.11-19);

and now in a most masterly way the destruction of Jerusalem and its dreadful fate which last on to the Parousia of the Son of man. V.20, "Jerusalem being encircled," ie, the present participle speaks of this encircling as being in progress, and the Greek word "soldier camps" of the army of the Romans as settling down permanently in camps for the siege after Matt.24:15 came to pass. My point this desolation is different than the "abomination of desolation" yet a part of it with the completion of the destruction where the encircling is not yet complete or something to this effect as been years since had to scrutinize this area.

However regardless of this I don’t agree with the view that the abomination of desolation refers to what you stated in one of your posts:

Would agape to be refutable, but still stands as valid my friend due to Rom.3:18 not wanting to offend nor provoke a Living God especially at my old age..

“The abomination of desolation occurred in the Temple prior to the siege under Titus of course. It took place when the Zealots, who held the Temple under arms, admtted the good ol' Idumeans and as a result the Temple was deluged with the level of blood of only 8,000 victims. But I think the main point is these men trampled upon all the laws of men and loled at the laws of God; and for the oracles of the prophets, they loled them as the tricks of jugglers.”

The problem with this is that it’s not compatible with what Paul writes in 2 Thess 2 about “the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple (highlighted by Jack) of God, proclaiming himself to be God” (ESV).
We need a valid Text to work from, IIThess.2:3, "...the son of the perdition, the one opposing and exalting himself against everyone called godor (every) object of worship, so that he seats himself in the SANCTUARY of God, showing himself off that he is God."

Mr. Luther missed this like he did a lot with interpretation of Scriptues, however Mr. Chemnitz and others following dialed in valid interpretations, eg, This Antichrist, ie, not the poor pope in his person, reveals himself as the Antichrist by this pagan act of actually seating himself in the true God's own SANCTUARY, ie, not "Temple," in one's heart where the Holy Spirit is suppose to be. The antichristian power and propaganda where the Jesuit General and his boys, behind the papacy, ie, sequence of popes, is at it's head, ie Jesuit General of course.

I always wonder why some who describe themselves as Lutherans on their masthead can’t see that Luther was right in identifying the Papacy as the Antichrist. They presumably agree with justification through faith alone and yet somehow don’t agree that the popes in condemning this and claiming that their teachings are to be followed instead don’t fulfil the criteria for being the Antichrist. Would any Lutherans who reject the Papacy as the Antichrist care to explain why they don’t share Luther’s identification of the Papacy as the Antichrist?

Luther writes: “No one has so subtly, so astutely, fulfilled the characteristics of the Antichrist as has the pope….The spirit of the pope is the subtlest of them all: he acknowledges the coming of Christ, retains apostolic words, and apostolic preachings, but the kernal he has removed: the truth that Christ came to save sinners…. For form’s sake he has kept everything, but in reality he has taken everything away. This calls for art and cunning: to pollute everything while maintaining the best of appearances, to say that Christ died for us and at the same time to teach that we render satisfaction”.

Just ol' old Jack that is not a modern Lutheran for sure, and still appreciate you.
 
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Edward65

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This Antichrist, ie, not the poor pope in his person, reveals himself as the Antichrist by this pagan act of actually seating himself in the true God's own SANCTUARY, ie, not "Temple," in one's heart where the Holy Spirit is suppose to be.

I'm having real trouble understanding what you're meaning in your reply. Let's just focus on your above comment. You say the Antichrist reveals himself as the Antichrist by the pagan act of seating himself in one's heart where the Holy Spirit should be. What (or who) then is the Antichrist in your eyes? Can you give me a simple answer to this question?
 
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shturt678

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I'm having real trouble understanding what you're meaning in your reply. Let's just focus on your above comment. You say the Antichrist reveals himself as the Antichrist by the pagan act of seating himself in one's heart where the Holy Spirit should be. What (or who) then is the Antichrist in your eyes? Can you give me a simple answer to this question?

The sequence of the papacy before the 16th century, and collectively after Mr. Loyola, the Jesuit General 28 miles or so out of the Vatican that is the power behind the Popes, eg, the Pope today is just an unknowing pawn although a part of the papacy and accountable, IIThess.2:3, ie, "man"

Hope this helps, ie, good question, and as simple as I can make it sir

Just ol' old Jack's uncomfortable and inconvenint view
 
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Edward65

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The sequence of the papacy before the 16th century, and collectively after Mr. Loyola, the Jesuit General 28 miles or so out of the Vatican that is the power behind the Popes, eg, the Pope today is just an unknowing pawn although a part of the papacy and accountable, IIThess.2:3, ie, "man"

Hope this helps, ie, good question, and as simple as I can make it sir

Just ol' old Jack's uncomfortable and inconvenint view

So you believe the Antichrist before the Reformation was the Papacy, but after the Reformation, because the popes are pawns of the Jesuits, that really the head of the Jesuits is now the Antichrist. If this is what you mean then I don’t agree with you. Whether individual popes are controlled by the Jesuits is irrelevant because it’s the institution of the Papacy which is the Antichrist.

It’s not the popes personally who are the Antichrist but rather the popes in their official capacity as the supposed infallible leaders and teachers of the whole world-wide Christian Church which is the Antichrist. And to briefly answer why the Papacy is the Antichrist, it’s because Christ never established the Papacy, and because the popes teach a false gospel. Roman Catholic teaching on the Papacy is based on misinterpretation of Scripture and spurious history.
 
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shturt678

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So you believe the Antichrist before the Reformation was the Papacy, but after the Reformation, because the popes are pawns of the Jesuits, that really the head of the Jesuits is now the Antichrist. If this is what you mean then I don’t agree with you. Whether individual popes are controlled by the Jesuits is irrelevant because it’s the institution of the Papacy which is the Antichrist.

My fault, ie, I just summarized. Let me click out what I put together almost 3 decades ago:

The sequence of popes in their official authority fits IIThess.2 where the Pope is the direct head of the apostasy and the Jesuit General, who directly submits himself to the authority and service of the Pope, is directly at the head of the modern Illuminati.

Irrelevant? Was is it the sequence of the Popes Clements or the Jesuits that generated the Commentaries that the RCC and Protestants buy into today, ie, Alcazar and Riberia? Remember there are two types of Jesuits, ie, one that graduates from their Seminary and one that is directly under the Jesuit General. Just giving you a head's up only touching the tip of an iceberg so my life doesn't get shortened although I'm an old man already.

It’s not the popes personally who are the Antichrist but rather the popes in their official capacity as the supposed infallible leaders and teachers of the whole world-wide Christian Church which is the Antichrist. And to briefly answer why the Papacy is the Antichrist, it’s because Christ never established the Papacy, and because the popes teach a false gospel. Roman Catholic teaching on the Papacy is based on misinterpretation of Scripture and spurious history.

In today's time "Protestants" X "RCC" X "E-O" = will give you one guess?

Just ol' old Jack trying to stay alive a little longer
 
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shturt678

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Wow, a thread about the Antichrist which made it a whole whopping 12 posts before a finger was pointed at the papacy!

Must be a record.

Was trying to soften the blow due to the modern Lutherans for example, ie, mini-popes, more damnable as closer to the truth mixing truth with subtle hard to detect errors even in the essentials.

Just ol' old Jack's opinion
 
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Edward65

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Wow, a thread about the Antichrist which made it a whole whopping 12 posts before a finger was pointed at the papacy!

Must be a record.

Unfortunately some people have been deceived by preterism and futurism into thinking that the Antichrist has either already been or is yet to come, both of which owe their origin to Catholic interpreters trying to deflect away identification of the Papacy as the Antichrist.
 
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Unfortunately some people have been deceived by preterism and futurism into thinking that the Antichrist has either already been or is yet to come, both of which owe their origin to Catholic interpreters trying to deflect away identification of the Papacy as the Antichrist.

Can you substantiate either of these claims? I mean, actually show that both preterism and futurism began with Catholic interpreters trying to deflect identification away from an already established widespread belief in a papal antichrist?
 
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SwordFall

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Unfortunately some people have been deceived by preterism and futurism into thinking that the Antichrist has either already been or is yet to come, both of which owe their origin to Catholic interpreters trying to deflect away identification of the Papacy as the Antichrist.

Preterism is just plain true.

John was speaking about Nero and everything of his time. The book was cryptic so that only believers would understand, and take heed.

It was the Reformists who tried to make the Papacy the Antichrist, not the Church trying to hide being the Antichrist.
Protestants warped everything to be justified outside the Church, and to make the pope the Devil.

It's sort of ridiculous, really, when you look back at it hundreds of years later knowing that there are actually people who still try to follow suite with all that.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Preterism is just plain true.

John was speaking about Nero and everything of his time. The book was cryptic so that only believers would understand, and take heed.

It was the Reformists who tried to make the Papacy the Antichrist, not the Church trying to hide being the Antichrist.
Protestants warped everything to be justified outside the Church, and to make the pope the Devil.

It's sort of ridiculous, really, when you look back at it hundreds of years later knowing that there are actually people who still try to follow suite with all that.

I completely agree with you about Nero (as I'd laid out on this and other threads), but the idea of a papal antichrist precedes the reformers by several centuries and is part of intra Catholic discourse. It assumes that the papacy is has central importance for the church. As I've said before, see chapters 4 and 5 of Bernard McGinn's Antichrist: Two Thousand Years of the Human Fascination With Evil.

Moreover, Luther's justification for being outside of the church had little to nothing to do with his belief in a papal antichrist. While the chronology is a little muddled, it seems that in his mature theology, when he believed in a papal antichrist, he had already come to the conclusion that he wasn't outside the church at all. Luther believed that the church is fully present wherever the word of law and gospel is rightly preached and the sacraments of baptism and communion are rightly administered. With that as the center of his doctrine of the church, the papacy (and the episcopate) became historical niceties, even preferred forms, but not essential. He had no theological need to justify being "outside" the church because as far as he was concerned, he wasn't.

Luther's belief in a papal antichrist had much more to do with his growing conviction (which sprung from his personal devastation at Pope Leo's bull Exsurge Domine) that the papacy had been corrupted by Satan into suppressing the doctrine of justification. Prior to 1520 Luther believed that the papacy was largely innocent of what he saw as a corrupt conspiracy on the part of certain cardinals and bishops to warp the doctrine of justification in order to raise funds through the illegal sale of indulgences; after 1520, he believed that the papacy was thoroughly implicated in this conspiracy, and was therefore a tool of Satan to take out the "doctrine of on which the church stands or falls," justification. Even after the publication of Exsurge Domine, though, he still was unsure whether the papacy was an unwitting tool of the devil or a willing participant, hence his dedication of his On Christian Liberty, published after his reception of the papal bull in late 1520, to Pope Leo X. I, personally, don't think he was fully committed to the view that the pope or papacy was antichrist until after his excommunication at Worms.

In any case, his doctrine of the antichrist didn't have much of anything to do with his doctrine of the church. I'm not saying I agree with his doctrine of the antichrist, or even that his thinking was entirely consistent. But his belief in a papal antichrist had much more to do with his understanding of the history of the doctrine of justification within the church than with his establishment of a counter-/para-church.
 
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Edward65

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shturt678

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According to the website below that is indeed the case:

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

Took me an embarrasing too long of time 3 decades ago, almost living in the libraries, to extract what you did in the click of a button.

Printed out and supplemented with my older works, ie, thank you all for pushing Edward to the point where he brought the hammer down.

Just ol' old appreciative Jack replacing the ink in my printer
 
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SwordFall

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According to the website below that is indeed the case:

The Catholic Origins of Futurism and Preterism

Oh yeah, an independent Christian site with most of it's information spurring from SDA sources.


It's you, or someone like you, presuming the intent of theologians to show that the Church is hiding itself from being the Devil.

Just goes to show the absurdity- not only is calling the papacy the Antichrist bigoted and pompous enough, but lo and behold, the Church 'tries to hide it'.

How exactly does the church 'hide something' of herself which her very foundation is the exact opposite of, and which is a motivated claim from heretics?
Protestants simply just can't get passed themselves for a second. Completely delusional when it comes to this subject.
 
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