The Abiogenesis/Atheism Fallacy

Blayz

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The funny thing is, if I knew my clock was 5 minutes off, I would set it up 5 minutes, I wouldn't set it up 1 second. Then another second. Then another second. That is just dumb. I would set it up 5 minutes, and problem solved, no more time moves.


Except your clock is not 5 minutes off, it is running 5 minutes fast. Each and every day it gains an extra 5 minutes. There is no "once off" correction to this problem. You need to change it on a regular basis. And the fact that your clock runs 5 minutes fast in no way impacts how long an actual day is, it is just a comment on your clock.

Some time ago, it was decided how long a second is. Unfortunately, these do not fit precisely into the rotation of the earth, in much the same way our planet has the temerity to rate 365.25 days each year, instead of a nice round 365, so we have leap years.... or do you think leap years are some evidence of the Earth slowing down?

We need to correct every 18 months because there is not an exact whole number of seconds in 18 months.

Now the correct solution is to change the definition of one second on a global level. Personally, if we were to go to that trouble I'd rather they moved to a decimal time measurement with 10 hours in the day each comprised of 100 minutes each of 100 seconds.
 
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HAPMinistries

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Except your clock is not 5 minutes off, it is running 5 minutes fast. Each and every day it gains an extra 5 minutes. There is no "once off" correction to this problem. You need to change it on a regular basis. And the fact that your clock runs 5 minutes fast in no way impacts how long an actual day is, it is just a comment on your clock.

Some time ago, it was decided how long a second is. Unfortunately, these do not fit precisely into the rotation of the earth, in much the same way our planet has the temerity to rate 365.25 days each year, instead of a nice round 365, so we have leap years.... or do you think leap years are some evidence of the Earth slowing down?

We need to correct every 18 months because there is not an exact whole number of seconds in 18 months.

Now the correct solution is to change the definition of one second on a global level. Personally, if we were to go to that trouble I'd rather they moved to a decimal time measurement with 10 hours in the day each comprised of 100 minutes each of 100 seconds.

The Leap Year happens once every 4 years to make up the extra day of time.

The only problem with your post, it that it happens on average 1 second every 18 months, but the occurrence is very sporadic. Through the 8 year span of 1972-1979, 9 seconds were gained, but from 1999-today, only 2 seconds have gained. This is inconsistent, an completely unlike the Leap Year.

Anyways, wiki says:
"In other words, the adjustment is required because we have decoupled the definition of the second from the current rotational period of the Earth. The actual rotational period varies due to unpredictable factors such as the motion of mass within Earth, and has to be observed rather than computed."
Leap second - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So this absolutely has to do with the observed changes in earth's rotation.
 
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SithDoughnut

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Yea, I read it, I presented it, it shows us adding 1 second every 18 months. This is for everyone to see.

You say this addition of time has absolutely nothing to do with the slowing rotation of the earth, simply an organization problem. Because setting your clock is a massive undertaking.

It's not setting your clock, it's building entirely new ones. Time isn't perfect until 18 months have gone by, when it magically snaps back a second. It is constantly lagging behind - the length of a second would have to be re-defined entirely. It has been already, we just haven't gotten round to implementing it, because moving clocks back one second every 18 months is easier and cheaper.

I asked some simple questions:
Tell me, why is there a constant need to change time back, on average 1 second every 18 months? Why are we unable to get the time 'right'?

And you totally avoid it, trying to shame me like I never read the article I presented. You have presented yourself as if you are some authority on the subject, but unable to tell why they can not get the time right, since in your words, the earth rotation is not slowing. The funny thing is, if I knew my clock was 5 minutes off, I would set it up 5 minutes, I wouldn't set it up 1 second. Then another second. Then another second. That is just dumb. I would set it up 5 minutes, and problem solved, no more time moves.
Read my above explanation as to why this doesn't work. The Earth is slowing (I never claimed it wasn't - putting words in people's mouths is one of Hovind's biggest fallacies that he likes to fall back on - there are far more consistent people out there), but not as fast as you think it is. I understand that you found the actual explanation, and took it as an alternative argument.

The reason I didn't feel the need to answer the question was because you keep assuring me that you've read the wiki article, so you'll have seen the answer already. Now that you've shown that either you've merely skimmed it or didn't read past the first paragraph (I urge you to read it properly so you stop asking questions that the article answers), let me introduce you to Solar Time, which, of course, is constantly referenced in the Wikipedia article you linked to.

Now, before you go any further, I would ask that you thoroughly read both your article and mine (perhaps checking out a few of the sources for further information) and then you can come back with some questions that haven't already been answered for you. I'm not an expert, and I don't pretend to be, so apologies for giving off that vibe, but I'm quite happy to go find the experts and tell you what they say.
 
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HAPMinistries

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The reason I didn't feel the need to answer the question was because you keep assuring me that you've read the wiki article, so you'll have seen the answer already. Now that you've shown that either you've merely skimmed it or didn't read past the first paragraph

Funny, the person you are fooling is not me...
 
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SithDoughnut

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Funny, the person you are fooling is not me...

Why are you avoiding the rest of the post? I explained everything to you, using the Wikipedia article you kindly provided. Perhaps you are satisfied with the answers?

To summarise the answers so far:

  • Time is wrong because our measurement of time is wrong. The Earth is indeed slowing down, but not consistently and not at the rates you think it is.
  • We do have several other ways of measuring time. I gave one example for the sake of simplicity, but we have methods such as Mean Solar Time/Universal Time and Ephemeris Time. The differences between these more accurate measurements of time and UTC (Co-ordinated Universal Time) is fixed by the way of implementing leap seconds and the like to "catch up".
  • Getting rid of leap seconds would be costly, and potentially redundant (given the other forms of time), but there is a proposal to do exactly that. I'm sure you read about it - it's in the Wikipedia article you linked here. Now hopefully you understand why I have been assuming that you didn't read the article entirely, as your question was answered here.
I am not trying to shame you or attack you. Perhaps I was hasty in my assumption that you didn't read the article - perhaps you misunderstood it or you didn't make the connection that it was the answer you were after. Or perhaps you understood it all and there is another reason why you were asking a question you already knew the answer to. Still, go and read the various articles I have linked to in this summary, and hopefully you'll get a better understanding of what the facts are.

Are there any further issues? I'm rather enjoying looking this stuff up.
 
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SithDoughnut

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I might be a fool for God.
But my God! Who's fool are you?

I can only assume that the answers satisfy you, you're running away from the discussion, or you're just delaying your reply for some reason. It would be nice if you could tell me which.
 
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Tomatoman

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I might be a fool for God.
But my God! Who's fool are you?

You are making 2 baseless assumptions here. 1. That god exists, and 2. That everyone must be a fool (for someone or something).

Dealing with point 1. As there is no evidence that god exists, all we are left with is your statement that you might be a fool. As this is your own admission I don't feel in any position to contradict you.

Dealing with point 2. Having read quite a few of his posts, it is my firm opinion that Gracchus is nobody's fool.

So there we have it. Just the one self-confessed fool.
 
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HAPMinistries

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Why are you avoiding the rest of the post?

How many question marks [?] are in the rest of your post? None.
So what is avoided?

I explained everything to you, using the Wikipedia article you kindly provided. Perhaps you are satisfied with the answers?

I am satisfied with my answer, yes.

To summarise the answers so far:

  • Time is wrong because our measurement of time is wrong. The Earth is indeed slowing down, but not consistently and not at the rates you think it is.
  • We do have several other ways of measuring time. I gave one example for the sake of simplicity, but we have methods such as Mean Solar Time/Universal Time and Ephemeris Time. The differences between these more accurate measurements of time and UTC (Co-ordinated Universal Time) is fixed by the way of implementing leap seconds and the like to "catch up".
  • Getting rid of leap seconds would be costly, and potentially redundant (given the other forms of time), but there is a proposal to do exactly that. I'm sure you read about it - it's in the Wikipedia article you linked here. Now hopefully you understand why I have been assuming that you didn't read the article entirely, as your question was answered here.
I am not trying to shame you or attack you. Perhaps I was hasty in my assumption that you didn't read the article - perhaps you misunderstood it or you didn't make the connection that it was the answer you were after. Or perhaps you understood it all and there is another reason why you were asking a question you already knew the answer to. Still, go and read the various articles I have linked to in this summary, and hopefully you'll get a better understanding of what the facts are.

Are there any further issues? I'm rather enjoying looking this stuff up.

All of these factors cause the mean solar day, on the average, to be slightly longer than the nominal 86,400 SI seconds, the traditional number of seconds per day. As UT is slightly irregular in its rate, astronomers introduced Ephemeris Time, which has since been replaced by Terrestrial Time (TT). However, because Universal Time is synchronous with night and day, and more precise atomic-frequency standards drift away from this, UT is still used to produce a correction (called a leap second) to atomic time, in order to obtain a broadcast form of civil time that carries atomic frequency. Thus, civil broadcast standards for time and frequency usually follow TAI closely, but occasionally change discontinuously (or "leap") in order to prevent them from drifting too far from mean solar time.
Universal Time - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lets look at this:
All of these factors cause the mean solar day, on the average, to be slightly longer than the nominal 86,400 SI seconds, the traditional number of seconds per day.

We would have a consistent adding of Leap seconds, like every 4th year having a Leap day. You would have a natural effect that is precisely consistent in appearing to be a 'slowing down' of the earth's rotation.

As UT is slightly irregular in its rate, astronomers introduced Ephemeris Time, which has since been replaced by Terrestrial Time (TT). However, because Universal Time is synchronous with night and day,

2 known factors of UT
  • irregular in its rate
  • synchronous with day and night

Simply put, the rotation of the earth is irregular. So the irregularity of adding leap seconds can be attested to the irregular rate, aka, the slowing of earth's rotation.

and more precise atomic-frequency standards drift away from this, UT is still used to produce a correction (called a leap second) to atomic time,

A correction due to the differences in time and the irregular slowing of earth's rotation.

in order to obtain a broadcast form of civil time that carries atomic frequency. Thus, civil broadcast standards for time and frequency usually follow TAI closely, but occasionally change discontinuously (or "leap") in order to prevent them from drifting too far from mean solar time.

So, in the end, we have 2 factors at work.
  1. a consistant slowing, which is just a flaw from 2 different legnths of days.
  2. a change of time from Earth's slowing rotation, irregular.

As I posted before:
Through the 8 year span of 1972-1979, 9 seconds were gained, but from 1999-today, only 2 seconds have gained. This is inconsistent, an completely unlike the Leap Year.

The inconsistency shows the slowing rate of earth's rotation.

Are you simply trying to discredit the 1 second every 18 months? If you are, you completely missed it.

This is my original post regarding the Leap Second on this thread where you began posting regarding it:
So, I tried to find the defense, and they say the earth loses 1 second every 200-250 years. That works great for the long timeline, but the empirical evidence we know and see in the Leap Second proves that number to be way off.

Actually, I misread the 'defense'. It actually says:
"The Earth slows down 2/1000th of a second about every 200 years."
As part of Kent Hovind

Another post says:
"The earth is slowing down by about 1 second every 200,000 years simply by tidal friction, not including the solar events (which have a much smaller impact since they are tenuous)."
How long will it take for the world to stop revolving or will it keep going forever? - Yahoo! UK & Ireland Answers

So it is not 1 second every 200 years, it is one second every 200,000 years.
My friend, that's wrong. We know that is wrong. We know the irregular rotation is causing irregular Leap seconds, and these irregularities are happening much more often than once every 200,000 years. Forget 1 second every 18 months, 1 second every 18 years would destroy the long hypothesized timelines.

Yes, I am satisfied with my answer.

Other oddities that makes one doubt the Time of the Gaps Fallacy:
REASONS FOR BELIEVING IN A YOUNG EARTH
 
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HAPMinistries

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You are making 2 baseless assumptions here. 1. That god exists, and 2. That everyone must be a fool (for someone or something).

Dealing with point 1. As there is no evidence that god exists, all we are left with is your statement that you might be a fool. As this is your own admission I don't feel in any position to contradict you.

Dealing with point 2. Having read quite a few of his posts, it is my firm opinion that Gracchus is nobody's fool.

So there we have it. Just the one self-confessed fool.

YouTube - Michael Jackson everybodys' somebody's fool
:wave:
 
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SithDoughnut

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As I posted before:
Through the 8 year span of 1972-1979, 9 seconds were gained, but from 1999-today, only 2 seconds have gained. This is inconsistent, an completely unlike the Leap Year.

That's because the leap year and leap second are different. The leap year is around because our idea of the length of a year is wrong (or rather, we don't want to mess around with 0.25 of a day at the end of every year).The leap second is around to keep time exact.

Are you simply trying to discredit the 1 second every 18 months? If you are, you completely missed it.

You discredit yourself when you try to use the leap second as evidence for something that it clearly proves wrong. I've told you why the leap second exists, and you've managed to disprove it yourself my acknowledging the irregularity of the deceleration of the Earth.

So it is not 1 second every 200 years, it is one second every 200,000 years.My friend, that's wrong. We know that is wrong. We know the irregular rotation is causing irregular Leap seconds, and these irregularities are happening much more often than once every 200,000 years. Forget 1 second every 18 months, 1 second every 18 years would destroy the long hypothesized timelines.

Protip: Yahoo answers is not somewhere you should be going if you actually want answers. Let's stick to actual facts, shall we?

If you go back to the tidal acceleration page, you'll notice that it's even slower than the "expert" on Yahoo answers claims. We're looking at around 1.7 seconds increase in the last 2700 years.

Yes, I am satisfied with my answer.

An argument against a strawman. How fast is the Earth slowing then, according to your evidently factual argument?
 
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HAPMinistries

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That's because the leap year and leap second are different. The leap year is around because our idea of the length of a year is wrong (or rather, we don't want to mess around with 0.25 of a day at the end of every year).The leap second is around to keep time exact.

You are completely missing the point. The Leap year does not change. It is 0.25/day per year.

The only irregular factor in the leap second is earths slowing rotation. Are you disagreeing with that statement?

Protip: Yahoo answers is not somewhere you should be going if you actually want answers. Let's stick to actual facts, shall we?

Actually, the place I originally used for reference is a anti-Hovind website, that you chose to ignore, that I am referencing here again:
As part of Kent Hovind

The yahoo just appeared on a search, and I noted it.

If you go back to the tidal acceleration page, you'll notice that it's even slower than the "expert" on Yahoo answers claims. We're looking at around 1.7 seconds increase in the last 2700 years.

An argument against a strawman. How fast is the Earth slowing then, according to your evidently factual argument?

It's not an argument against a straw man. Lets use your 'facts':
Through the 8 year span of 1972-1979, 9 seconds were gained, but from 1999-today, only 2 seconds have gained.

You say:
"We're looking at around 1.7 seconds increase in the last 2700 years."

I believe I established in the very beginning of this post:
"The only irregular factor in the leap second is earths slowing rotation."

You asked me:
"How fast is the Earth slowing then, according to your evidently factual argument?"

Well there is a 9 second gain in 8 years, then a 2 second gain over 12, going into 13 years. That is a pretty huge irregularity. If only earth's rotation is causing 'irregularity', then I would safely say that we have gained more than 1.7 seconds since 1972.
 
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