The 7 a.m. 6 pack

Hammster · Apr 29, 2010

I appreciate what you are saying. But it goes back to an earlier point I made. I keep hearing that the gospel isn't enough, but then you all turn around and say "look, the 12 steps are biblical in nature". To me there is a disconnect. But maybe it's just me. I am enjoying this thread, btw.

Hupomone10 · Apr 29, 2010

Hammster said:
I would use "a gospel-centered life" as opposed to "a life of faith" for the simple reason that it more narrowly defines Who our faith is in.

I see what you're saying, bro. The faith is in Christ, if that helps. My statement left Christ out as assumed, and yours leaves faith out as assumed. But it's that "assumed" part that bit me; and of course I can only describe my own experience, not others. I was on the other side of this discussion for many years. I would have called it "the Christ-centered life" or "the godly life" probably, because "gospel centered" would have been too generic for me. I thought I knew a lot about faith; but for me it was mostly "assumed." That's why I say I lived mostly by my own sanctified (and otherwise) self-effort and resources. I finally ran up against something I couldn't handle; and it had the divine effect of driving me directly into His arms and learning what it truly means to have faith.

Anyway, I've given you I think plenty of time to elaborate on what you meant by the gospel-centerd life, and you really haven't; you just repeat it as though it somehow had magic by the word itself. The only clarification you've made is that you seem to emphasize our own ability to obey. I don't believe that is the message of the gospel. I believe the gospel has two messages: 1) that Christ took my sins on the cross; and 2) that Christ took my sin nature, the Old H. to the cross and positionally put me to death in Christ. That's the part that allows me to overcome. Not self-effort or resolve, but Christ's work. And that is only effective in me as I learn to put faith in the facts of His accomplished work.

what led you to whatever point of distinction that you have that makes one an alcoholic is either a sin issue or it isn't.

Click to expand...

Please elaborate, or rephrase; I'm not sure what you're asking.

Hupomone10 · Apr 29, 2010

madison1101 said:
Does it really matter, in the grand scheme of things, if one admits that their alcoholism is, or is not, a sin issue.

If we break down the 12 steps a person uses in AA, you will see that the sin issue is dealt with.

1. - 12
The believer who is working a 12 Step AA program is dealing with the sin in their lives, or they are not working the Steps, and if that is the case, they are doomed to drink again. If nothing changes, then nothing will change.

I agree, Madison. I wish AA talked more about temptation, and it does bother me their drift away from Christ. But you can't work the steps without dealing with sin. Anyone who has studied and knows the background of them knows that they came from the Oxford group and from Bill Wilson's own convictions regarding God; which back in that day, less confused than us, saw getting right with God in no other way that through Christ.

Hammster · Apr 29, 2010

I gave two posts on living gospel-centered after asking for an issue to address. I didn't think I needed more. The same principle remains. Every sin has pride at it's root. The desire to get what I want whether that be money, power, authority, respect, revenge, justice, pleasure, etc. And alcohol abuse is a way to cope when these things don't come to us. My sin was pride couched as insecurity. I was the "life of the party guy". The one who cracked jokes. The one who could out drink everyone. It was fun, but I was miserable. But because of what Christ did for me, I don't need that anymore. I still crave it from time to time, and it manifests itself in different ways now, but I don't use alcohol. But it is still the same sin issue. Just because I don't drink, though, doesn't make it any less of an issue. That's why I stress the sin of drunkeness. And do so in this forum. But drunkenness is just the outward manifestation of other sins.

What the cross does is put things into perspective, for one. As John the Baptist put it, He must increase; I must decrease. His glory must become more and more in my life. One of the ways that is done is by understanding more and more about the sins in my life and how they affect God and do not bring Him glory. Here is an example that happened just today. I was listening to Wretched Radio and the host was witnessing on the street. He was talking about sin. One thing he mentioned to the young man he was witnessing to was that anger was the same as murder. Yes, I knew that, but my anger is always righteous. Not. But I have never addressed the fact that when I call the guy a moron who can't drive (I am a trucker) I am not bringing glory to God. So I have to apply the gospel to that situation and remind myself that they are made in the image of God and Christ died for their sins just as He did mine.

I don't know if there is an overarching "thing" to do to be cross-centered except to evaluate your sin, and why you sin. And to determine to know Christ and Him crucified. God has empowered us with that ability. So if I talk ability, it is always going to be through the power of Christ. I CAN DO all things through Him who gives me strength.

Now I will await for the usual response I get on this thread.

madison1101 · Apr 29, 2010

Hammster said:
I appreciate what you are saying. But it goes back to an earlier point I made. I keep hearing that the gospel isn't enough, but then you all turn around and say "look, the 12 steps are biblical in nature". To me there is a disconnect. But maybe it's just me. I am enjoying this thread, btw.

I can see the disconnect, as it is unfolding here. However, when I give my story, one of the things I share is that I attended Bible teaching churches, and had head knowledge of God's forgiveness and the grace that was available to me. But, it was not till I began to work the 12 steps, and use the scriptures that support the steps, that I really experienced God's grace and the scriptures made sense because of how they were explained in the steps. Plus, AA, not the Church, helped me be honest with myself, and to see myself as God sees me. I could not honestly look at myself, with all of my flaws, and get honest about those flaws, until I worked the 4th and 5th steps. The steps helped me to see myself and normalized what I saw, because I saw myself as the worst sinner, and believed that nobody in my church was as bad as I was, when it came to sinning.

I hope this makes sense. I am enjoying this thread as well.

Hammster · Apr 29, 2010

Please understand that I am thankful that you found help. Maybe my issue is with the fact that you had to get help from AA, that the church failed. I am not much of a pragmatist when it comes to spiritual matters. What I mean is that we shouldn't judge something by whether or not it works, but by whether or not it is good and right. AA might be good (it helps people deal with sin issues) but it isn't right because it is an indication of our failing churches. My bigger issue with AA is that the gospel isn't central. So while you may have sober people, I'd rather have a drunk going to Heaven than a sober person going to Hell. I think that there is too much danger of having whitwashed tombs.

madison1101 · Apr 29, 2010

Hammster said:
Please understand that I am thankful that you found help. Maybe my issue is with the fact that you had to get help from AA, that the church failed. I am not much of a pragmatist when it comes to spiritual matters. What I mean is that we shouldn't judge something by whether or not it works, but by whether or not it is good and right. AA might be good (it helps people deal with sin issues) but it isn't right because it is an indication of our failing churches. My bigger issue with AA is that the gospel isn't central. So while you may have sober people, I'd rather have a drunk going to Heaven than a sober person going to Hell. I think that there is too much danger of having whitwashed tombs.

If AA's purpose were to glorify God, and bring people into the Kingdom, I would say that the gospel should be central. BUT, that is not AA's purpose. The AA Preamble states the exact purpose.

"Alcoholics Anonymous® is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. There are no dues or fees for AA membership; we are self-supporting through our own contributions. AA is not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organization or institution; does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses nor opposes any causes. Our primary purpose is to stay sober and help other alcoholics to achieve sobriety."

It is my personal hope that as I share in other people's journeys of recovery, and get to know them, I would have the opportunity to share the Gospel with them. I would rather encourage strangers toward sobriety in AA, and then share the Gospel with them after I have earned their trust.

It is the Church's responsibility, or should be, to spread the Gospel. The fact that the churches I attended failed to communicate the Truth that I learned in AA is sad indeed. Gratefully, my current church has a different approach, and shares the Gospel much the way I needed twenty years ago when I first came to AA.

Trish

Hammster · Apr 29, 2010

madison1101 said:
If AA's purpose were to glorify God, and bring people into the Kingdom, I would say that the gospel should be central. BUT, that is not AA's purpose.

And unfortunately that's the problem. It's the Gospel that saves. It's the Gospel that sanctifies.

madison1101 · Apr 29, 2010

Hammster said:
And unfortunately that's the problem. It's the Gospel that saves. It's the Gospel that sanctifies.

And, were AA a church, I would say that should be the message. But, AA is not a church, it is a program for recovery from alcoholism. People stand a better chance of becoming saved and sanctified once the alcohol is out of their system, and they are faced with cleaning up the wreckage left by the booze in the first place.

When I was in rehab, a bunch of us would attend church every Sunday, because one of the staff would drive a van load of us to a Gospel preaching church that reached out to the clients of the rehab. They would even have us come up front and lay hands on us to pray for and with us.

Celebrate Recovery is a Gospel based recovery program that many churches have adopted. Sadly, it is not as wide spread as AA is. Maybe someday it will be offered in every church, as it not only addresses alcoholism, but other addictions as well. There are only two meetings in my area, and one is really not that close at all. Were I new to recovery, I might look into it. Someday, when I complete my outpatient treatment program, I may attend a meeting or two, just to see what it is all about. It was not around 20 years ago, when I needed a program.

I encourage people to go to whichever program is available. I know that AA is in almost every city in the US, or close to it. I also know that I can attend AA wherever I travel, and I have attended AA in New York City, Michigan, Pittsburgh, Washington, D.C. and all over Southeastern PA.

We both seek the same solution, we just have differing priorities in how to reach that solution. I seek to honor the Lord in my AA recovery program by working the Steps and reaching out to newcomers. You, I believe, seek to reach the lost as well. My means is AA. Yours is the Gospel. I am one for friendship evangelism. The Gospel will be shared, in my story, as I make friends and share in meetings. I do not believe I need to have my AA program be the Gospel. You believe the program should.

I hope I am making sense.

Hupomone10 · Apr 30, 2010

Hammster said:
I keep hearing that the gospel isn't enough

Enough for what? For eternal life? I've read the thread too, and I don't remember anyone saying the gospel wasn't enough to save. I do hear people saying that the truth of the simple gospel itself wasn't enough for deliverance from a stronghold like alcohol, or for that matter homosexuality, drugs, depression, thoughts of suicide.

And unfortunately that's the problem. It's the Gospel that saves. It's the Gospel that sanctifies.

Disagree, and the Word would disagree. It is CHRIST that saves; and it is God's truth that sanctifies.
"Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. John 17:17. Do you believe this verse? If so, it speaks of ALL God's truth, not just the truths of the gospel, even though they are central.
Plus, not one person here has inferred that AA can save a person from hell, or that AA can replace the church.

The problem is not necessarily AA; the problem is when we give an overly simplistic answer to a problem that is very powerful and complex, just because the simplistic answer was enough for us personally.

A question again: what would you recommend to a Christian talking of suicide? "The gospel should be enough for you NOT to want to do so."? Is that really all you would tell them?

Hammster · Apr 30, 2010

Actually, the problem is when you make the gospel just a simple get out of Hell message. Way more than that. All of scripture speaks of Christ. It is the unfolding of redemptive history. It's all about Christ. It's all the Gospel. Jesus is the Word (John 1:1), so it is Him that sactifies.

That is what I am getting at when I say that you say that gospel isn't enough.

I am not going to address the suicide question because I am through with your games, your insults and snide remarks. I have presented in three posts how the Gospel can help in various situations. It's not going to change.

madison1101 · Apr 30, 2010

Hammster said:
Actually, the problem is when you make the gospel just a simple get out of Hell message. Way more than that. All of scripture speaks of Christ. It is the unfolding of redemptive history. It's all about Christ. It's all the Gospel. Jesus is the Word (John 1:1), so it is Him that sactifies.

That is what I am getting at when I say that you say that gospel isn't enough.

I am not going to address the suicide question because I am through with your games, your insults and snide remarks. I have presented in three posts how the Gospel can help in various situations. It's not going to change.

Hammster,
I have appreciated our conversations, as it helped me clarify my own recovery, which I needed since I am telling my story tonight at my home group of AA.

In the course of our discussions, I found that we are not that far from agreement on a lot of the issues. I hope you felt the same way.

Trish

Hupomone10 · Apr 30, 2010

Hammster said:
I am not going to address the suicide question because I am through with your games, your insults and snide remarks.

IMHO
This is a snide remark:
"I'm sorry that I wasn't alcoholic enough for you."
"Now I will await for the usual response I get on this thread."

This is a question:
"what would you recommend to a Christian talking of suicide? "The gospel should be enough for you NOT to want to do so."? Is that really all you would tell them?"

It's all the Gospel.

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures," 1 Cor. 15:1-4

It's all scripture; and the gospel is the central point. It is all inspired, infallible, and given to live life, not just deliverance from hell. To this we both agree, and we shouldn't feel we have to doubt each other or try to teach each other. I believe the alcoholics here for the most part agree with that too.

"Btw, I know this might come off as insensitive. I am just blunt, that's all.

" I guess I'm blunt, too. Please extend me the same patience (and answers) I extended to you.
Thanks,
H.

Hupomone10 · Apr 30, 2010

another thought...

Hammster said:
"So why is that insufficient? And what makes AA sufficient?"

Maybe it would come across differently if it didn’t seem from the very beginning that you were here to try to talk people out of AA and into the plan you have. In many cases, they have a recovery plan they're satisfied with, which includes the gospel. People who have identified themselves as believers, who have embraced the gospel, who love the Lord and understand that we are to obey Him who loved us enough to give His Son.

AA didn't work for me; and I was a part of it deeply for 6 years. But I have never tried to talk anyone out of going to AA and into just what worked for me. I hope I can help those hard cases like myself, that nothing worked for. The ones that tried "if I confess, repent, rededicate, and try hard enough and love Him enough, I can overcome alcohol" philosophy. I'm here to help anyone who loves the Lord or at least willing to listen to the gospel, thinks they've tried it all, and can't figure what went wrong or what’s wrong with them.

I tried it the way I'm hearing that you did, and it just didn’t work for me. I'm happy that was enough for you. I was a hard case, I admit it; and it took much of the meatier Word and some personal applications of it to my life to get me through. And here I am. Sober for 2 yrs 7 months. And I think I was somehow valuable enough in God’s eyes to be rescued. I'm glad God didn't give up on me, and only send me one person with a message I had already tried and couldn't make work, and then give up on me. I’m glad for the truths I learned and the practices I learned in AA. I’m glad for the walk of faith He started me on and opened my eyes to. I'm glad He sent my way a pastor that talked with me 30 minutes every Sunday night. The resistance you feel is in part due to the fact that you're not content just to tell what worked for you and accept what works for them instead of telling them what will work for them. [FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]If you want to discuss different theologies of recovery, I started a thread for that. I'll be glad to share there. But you'll do better here if you stop trying to talk people out of their plan, especially when they're sober. Just a thought.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

Hammster · Apr 30, 2010

For the record, in the earlist posts I never even mentioned AA. I just pointed a professing believer to the cross. And I quoted scripture. Those posts were reported. I can only imagine it was because I didn't tow the company line. My views have been criticized for the same reason. So while I have been critical of AA since then, it has been in defense of the gospel.

hotsauce5000 · May 1, 2010

can someone simplify this thread?

I have been trying to keep up with it, and i have read and learned many fine points, but it seems that Zooomas original post is a few pages back and "LOST".

maybe the debating points can be compiled to a sticky? i think there are things to be learned but its harder when its deep in a thread someone else started.

Hupomone10 · May 1, 2010

AMEN hotsauce !
I'm just impressed (and surprised) at this point that anyone is following this thread. That's the problem when the discussion leaves the point the person made when they started it.

I don't understand stickies, maybe I need to read about it or someone could explain.

I will try to give my thoughts on the summary, but I'm sure Hammster might have a different summary.

When it took of a different direction, it became a discussion of whether the gospel alone was enough for a person to recover from alcohol or not, or it things like AA were ok for a Christian to have as part of their recovery program.

Many here believe AA has a place, and maybe even an important place, in the recovery of a Christian alcoholic. One person in particular, believes the church and the gospel should be enough, because it was enough for him.

I had to have a more intensive recovery plan than either the gospel (including just reading the Word in its entirety) or AA. But I admit that I'm a severe alcoholic.

So, there are 3 views: its ok, even beneficial for a Christian to be involved in AA; a Christian should rely only on the gospel and the church; and for some it takes more extreme emphasis or measures to get there.

Just my thoughts.

hotsauce5000 · May 2, 2010

ok thanks hupo.

that summary helped me understand better. so much reading and re-reading, i wasnt exactly sure. i can follow that now.

a sticky. its when you spill a coke on something and it kinda dries up.......LOL, just kidding.

but seriously, its when a moderator makes a post, usually considering a main topic, ( see the "stickies" at the top of all the forums) and they can lock them so they are not to be replied to, only read as maybe general guidelines?
that is all

Hupomone10 · May 3, 2010

hotsauce5000 said:
but seriously, its when a moderator makes a post, usually considering a main topic, ( see the "stickies" at the top of all the forums) and they can lock them so they are not to be replied to, only read as maybe general guidelines? that is all

Thanks hotsauce. And I appreciate your humor

Since Hammster elected not to answer the last question, I'll end this by doing so and clarify the purpose of it...
I asked him:
"what would you recommend to a Christian talking of suicide? "The gospel should be enough for you NOT to want to do so."? Is that really all you would tell them?"

What I was getting at is that if the gospel as he defines it, is enough for the alcoholic, even a severe one, then the gospel would be enough for someone considering suicide. But no one in his right mind would recommend a person not go to counseling, or 12 step groups, or SOMETHING, if they are considering doing this. The severity may be greater, but the principle is still there. If you would recommend other options to the person considering taking their life, why would you insist that nothing but the gospel need be considered for someone taking their life slowly through alcohol. And those other options, in my opinion, would include AA.

hotsauce5000 · May 17, 2010

im just not gonna read this thread anymore, zoooma hasnt been back on his own thread that i have seen.
has anyone heard from him?

The 7 a.m. 6 pack

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