The 7 a.m. 6 pack

Hupomone10 said:

Every believer knows that drunkenness is a sin. Every alcoholic knows that there is a difference between drunkenness and alcoholism. Drunkenness is behavior; alcoholism is the condition. We wouldn't say that being fat is a sin, would we? (hope not!). But we would say gluttony is a sin. Gluttony is the behavior, overweight is the condition.

It surprises me that you continue to miss so obvious a thing. My feeling is that you were not an alcoholic, but just someone who drank too much. Just my thoughts.


Yes, I agree. However I think the truth is, we Christians believe we have the ability. That's the biggest thing that defeats us, and the reason God must allow some of the failures to happen in our lives - to drive us to faith in Christ for everything.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry that I wasn't alcoholic enough for you. And I'm sorry that you've bought the lie that alcoholism is not a sin issue. If it really is a medical issue, then we should be referring people to doctors, not AA. And yes, I know about the physiological aspects of it. Which would be a condition. However, if it isn't a sin issue then all we would have to do is treat them for that, get them sober, and all would be good.

Hammster said:

I'm sorry that I wasn't alcoholic enough for you. And I'm sorry that you've bought the lie that alcoholism is not a sin issue. If it really is a medical issue, then we should be referring people to doctors, not AA. And yes, I know about the physiological aspects of it. Which would be a condition. However, if it isn't a sin issue then all we would have to do is treat them for that, get them sober, and all would be good.

Click to expand...

Hammster, you seem to be confusing behavior from condition. Conditions are not sin. A person who has cancer, or diabetes is not in sin for these conditions. Neither is an alcoholic. If a person who is diabetic knowingly does not follow doctor's orders and eats something sugary, is that sin? I would think so. Yet, being diabetic is not sin.

Just as an alcoholic is not in a state of sin for being alcoholic. The minute that alcoholic gets drunk, that is sin. I am a sober alcoholic and have been for 103 days. I am not in a state of sin.

As for recommending doctors, I would refer an alcoholic to AA and rehab, if they cannot stop with AA alone. If they are in really bad physical shape, then it would be the rehab first. Some alcoholics, like me when I first came in, can get sober before rehab referral. Insurance limits how much time a person gets to go inpatient for treatment, as well as outpatient treatment. That is why so many people get encouraged to try AA first, because insurance makes it challenging to get help at the medical/mental health level. AA is free. Doctors and rehabs cost money that some people are not willing to spend.

madison1101 said:

Hammster, you seem to be confusing behavior from condition. Conditions are not sin. A person who has cancer, or diabetes is not in sin for these conditions. Neither is an alcoholic. If a person who is diabetic knowingly does not follow doctor's orders and eats something sugary, is that sin? I would think so. Yet, being diabetic is not sin.

Just as an alcoholic is not in a state of sin for being alcoholic. The minute that alcoholic gets drunk, that is sin. I am a sober alcoholic and have been for 103 days. I am not in a state of sin.

As for recommending doctors, I would refer an alcoholic to AA and rehab, if they cannot stop with AA alone. If they are in really bad physical shape, then it would be the rehab first. Some alcoholics, like me when I first came in, can get sober before rehab referral. Insurance limits how much time a person gets to go inpatient for treatment, as well as outpatient treatment. That is why so many people get encouraged to try AA first, because insurance makes it challenging to get help at the medical/mental health level. AA is free. Doctors and rehabs cost money that some people are not willing to spend.

Click to expand...

And I think you are missing my point. I have acknowledged the difference between the sin and the condition known as alcoholism. That's the point. If all alcohism is is a condition, medical or otherwise, then getting the alcohol out of the system would be enough. But alcoholism (for lack of a better term) isn't the problem. It is the sin that got someone to that point which is the problem. Just like gluttony is the cause of obesity, but being obese isn't a sin. But lyposuction won't make the sin go away.

madison1101 said:

Hammster:
You still have not identified what specific behaviors, steps, you took where the gospel is concerned, that helped you to stop drinking. What specific steps, behaviors, are you currently doing, to prevent a relapse into drinking to drunkenness.? This was my question ages ago.

Click to expand...

This will probably cause tempers to flair, but it is a two step process. Step one was to stop drinking. I quit going to bars and I quit buying beer. If a drink was offered, I said no. Step two was to get into the Word. However, it wasn't a conscious step. Iow, I didn't do it to stop drinking. That was handled in step one. Step two, however, does help in the sanctification process, and as time goes by there is less and less of the things in my life that led to my drinking in the first place.

Hammster said:

This will probably cause tempers to flair, but it is a two step process. Step one was to stop drinking. I quit going to bars and I quit buying beer. If a drink was offered, I said no. Step two was to get into the Word. However, it wasn't a conscious step. Iow, I didn't do it to stop drinking. That was handled in step one. Step two, however, does help in the sanctification process, and as time goes by there is less and less of the things in my life that led to my drinking in the first place.

Click to expand...

Thank you. That is what I am doing, along with my AA participation. When I was in rehab, the chaplain lent me a Recovery Bible, and a few of us would get together each morning and share in the Word, and pray.

BUT, the Word itself, is not enough for me. That is, just being in the Word is not enough. AA, and the 12 steps, helps me to heal the scrambled emotions that led to the addiction to alcohol.

I think that is the point. The 12 steps helps a person to heal, because it forces a person to do a critical self-examination in the 4th step. Then, it encourages that person share the deepest, darkest secrets in their closet with another human being, as well as with God. That is the hardest part for many AAers. After this confession/5th step, the person then turns to God to have God deal with the negative behaviors,, and help them be rid of them once and for all. Then, the person looks at their 4th step again, and sees who they have hurt in their lives, and sets to making those damaged relationships right by apologizing and making amends with these people. After the 8th and 9th step, the AAer then continues to clean house and make things right, learns to develop a prayer life, and then reaches out to others who are suffering from alcoholism and shares with them the AA program to offer hope of recovery.

Everyone of these ideas is Biblical, and practical for all people, not just alcoholics. That is why the 12 steps is offered in other areas, such as overeating, narcotic addiction, gambling, as well as for family members of alcoholics in Al-Anon.

Why do I recommend AA? Because most people will not seek professional help until they are convinced they have a problem, and attending a few AA meetings can help a person who is in denial see their need for help.

So what do you think people did for the thousands of years before AA? Serious question.

Hammster said:

And I think you are missing my point. I have acknowledged the difference between the sin and the condition known as alcoholism. That's the point. If all alcohism is is a condition, medical or otherwise, then getting the alcohol out of the system would be enough. But alcoholism (for lack of a better term) isn't the problem. It is the sin that got someone to that point which is the problem. Just like gluttony is the cause of obesity, but being obese isn't a sin. But lyposuction won't make the sin go away.

Click to expand...

I think we are close to agreeing. I do not believe that the sin of drunkenness is the crux of the alcoholic's problem. I believe that when AAers do their 4th and 5th steps, they begin to see where the problem truly lies, and sometimes that is in resentments and hurt relationships for years gone by. Sometimes, as in the case of people who have been abused, it is someone else's sin, and the unresolved resentment that accompanies that, that leads to the drunkenness, and then the addiction and full blown alcoholism.

That is the beauty of the 12 Steps of AA.

Trish

I think that maybe I have figured out my confusion. Or where I see a disconnect. Your call. But I see from the same people who say scripture wasn't enough for them turn around and talk about the twelve steps and how scriptural they are.

Personally, if the twelve steps would talk about Jesus, who died for sins, was buried, and rose on the third day, and as sinners, if we place our faith in the finished work of Christ we could be saved, I would be good with that. Instead, we have people believing in god as we understand him.

Hammster said:

So what do you think people did for the thousands of years before AA? Serious question.

Click to expand...

Does that matter? If not for AA, the mental health and medical communities would not have done the amount of research that has been done and is still being done on alcoholism, and addictions in general.

What matters is what am I doing with my program of recovery? Am I being obedient with what I know, or believe, God's will is for me concerning alcoholism and recovery? That is all that matters in the historical sense. What people did about alcoholism in earlier history is of little consequence.

Hammster said:

I think that maybe I have figured out my confusion. Or where I see a disconnect. Your call. But I see from the same people who say scripture wasn't enough for them turn around and talk about the twelve steps and how scriptural they are.

Personally, if the twelve steps would talk about Jesus, who died for sins, was buried, and rose on the third day, and as sinners, if we place our faith in the finished work of Christ we could be saved, I would be good with that. Instead, we have people believing in god as we understand him.

Click to expand...

What has been missed is that I have said that the scriptures, just as they stand alone, were not enough. I was the one who shared about the recovery Bibles with scripture and steps working together.

I have Christ as my Higher Power when I work my steps. You want Christ there? Put Him there. That does not mean I am denegrating Christ if the person sitting next to me in a meeting is a Hindu. Where else would I have the opportunity to sit next to a Hindu and share what God is doing in my life, and let it be known in some way that my God is Jesus. (I know a person from India who goes to one of my meetings.)

There are Celebrate Recovery meetings that have something like the steps written with Christ in them, if you like. Celebrate Recovery

What others do at a meeting regarding the Higher Power question is between them and God. I answer to God about my behavior and my relationship with Jesus. I seek to honor and glorify God in my participation in meetings. When I tell my story, I mention that Jesus is my God, and that the scriptures are important in my recovery. I may be the only believer some of these alcoholics meet. I am faithful in my witness to Him.

Trish

Hammster said:

I still haven't seen what AA has given you that isn't in Scripture. This isn't a knock on AA, but just wondering. You had a long post on identifying sin and our helplessness against it in our own strength. Which I agree with. So why is that insufficient? And what makes AA sufficient?

Click to expand...

You've been very good in sticking with this, Hammster; and I appreciate it. I don't know if this is for me or madison, but for myself I can answer that for the believer, I do not think AA is sufficient. I believe the believer should be a part of a local church. Scripture is unanimous in support of this.

I would also say that for a person fresh from a binge, in withdrawal, reeking of alcohol and shakes, a church meeting may not be the biggest priority. It may not be sufficient - short term. (oh no! burn him at the stake!). But before you do, I also believe that for a person who attempts suicide, or even talks about it, maybe a church service is not the first thing for them. I don't know if you've dealt with that, but I have. I had to cut off an email contact for that very reason, because the guy constantly went back to talk of suicide. He soon checked himself into a hospital. I don't think the first place for someone with mental illness is the church. Maybe they need counseling, and church. I don't think the first place for someone wounded in a knife fight after robbing a store, is church. Maybe they need to go to a hospital (and maybe jail) first, then to church. The first AA meeting I went to I interrupted. It was a lead meeting of about 200 people. I guess I expected to find people standing around waiting to help alcoholics as they came in the door. I was still coming down off a 2 week binge, and I waited as long as I felt I could, then spoke up OVER the speaker and asked for help. They quietly told me it would be ok, encouraged me to sit down with them, and I waited til the end. Then I had at least 20 people come to me to talk afterwards; and was told for the first time in my life one of the secrets, that I couldn't try to recover to get my wife and family back, as important as that is. I had to recover for me. Because if I don't see it's bad for ME, and if I'm not right then I'm no good for them anyway, then it won't work.

I dare say if I had tried that in church, it wouldn't have gone as well. So, in summary, in my opinion AA is not sufficient, but it may be expedient for the time being. Some, perhaps most, continue to attend. This much I'm sure of, the severe alcoholic without a plan is a relapse waiting to happen.

Hammster said:

However, if it isn't a sin issue then all we would have to do is treat them for that, get them sober, and all would be good.

Click to expand...

I cannot disagree more. If it IS a sin issue then all we would have to do is treat them, get them sober, and all would be good (if they repent and confess). But because it's a condition, it needs more attention. Your's didn't. I'm happy for you. But I don't have a problem with overeating either; some do.

I'm sorry that I wasn't alcoholic enough for you.

Click to expand...

Hammster, you do not have to be sarcastic, but being a sarcast I understand . It's not that you're not alcoholic enough FOR ME, you are simply not alcoholic enough to understand. It is something in your own words you were able to overcome in your own sanctified effort (ability). I have realized that there are issues that my own self effort, personal resources and strength will not be enough for. So I'm concentrating on responding to ALL of life's issues the way God led me to do with alcohol.

And I'm sorry that you've bought the lie that alcoholism is not a sin issue.

Click to expand...

We will have to agree to disagree concerning alcoholism as a sin. A sin issue? Maybe, maybe not. Mine was. I know a man right now who never drank to get drunk (drunkenness is the sin, not alcoholism, not drinking), and yet because he did it too often he became hooked on it. He attends AA and church also, and feels AA helps him stay away from it. Would you insist that HIS alcoholism is a sin?

It is not a lie I've embraced. If so, then I am also embracing a lie by believing that the being overweight is a sin; and having heart disease (which is totally diet related disease) is a sin. Try that at church the way you're trying it here that the condition of alcoholism is a sin, and let me know how that turns out for you.

Hammster:
To those who have aids, do you tell them it's a sin issue?

And lastly, if someone took you captive, fed you alcohol for 6 months, do you believe when you got out you would be addicted? And if so, would it be a sin issue?

Hupomone10 said:

Hammster:
To those who have aids, do you tell them it's a sin issue?

And lastly, if someone took you captive, fed you alcohol for 6 months, do you believe when you got out you would be addicted? And if so, would it be a sin issue?

Click to expand...

1. Having aids isn't a sin issue. What led to contracting aids might be.

2. If someone took me captive and fed me alcohol for six months, and I was somehow addicted, then it would be a medical problem and once I dried up, then there would be no more issues.

Hammster said:

1. Having aids isn't a sin issue. What led to contracting aids might be.

2. If someone took me captive and fed me alcohol for six months, and I was somehow addicted, then it would be a medical problem and once I dried up, then there would be no more issues.

Click to expand...

1. I believe that having alcoholism isn't a sin issue. What led to the alcoholism might be. We're closer to agreement than it might seem.

2. I am very happy if for you there would be no more issues. For many this has not been the case. I feel I must deal with their situation as they experience it, rather than what I think or wish their situation should be, just as I had to deal with my situation as it was not what it should be.

Please understand, Hammster, that I am very glad you became alcohol-free as straight-forward as you did. That is a great thing, not a bad thing.

It is said that an alcoholic drinks basically because he likes the effect of alcohol. The greatest thing I've learned in all my journey through this, and perhaps the bottom line for me, is that I had to switch from a life of feeling to a life of faith. And it was a process, not instantaneous.
I thought I'd include some thoughts on that which the Lord gave me as I traveled this journey:

[FONT=&quot] Faith has two aspects: initial faith, and ongoing faith. Initial faith is the act of trusting in Christ personally as our payment for sin. Ongoing faith is trust in Christ’s Presence, provisions, and power in order to live the Christian life moment-by-moment. It is faith in His indwelling Presence and His accomplished work. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Biblical faith is belief that results in a response in keeping with that belief – a response in thoughts, attitudes, and actions. The response is not always effective, depending on the object of the faith (it is often faith in Self); but true faith always leads to a response.[/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]By faith I grow. (James 1:3; 1 Pet 2:2)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]By faith I overcome the world, the flesh, and the Devil. (1 John 2:14; 5:4; Rev. 12:11) [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]By faith I am dead to the world, the flesh, and sin. (Gal. 6:14; Gal. 5:24; Rom. 6:11)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]If I try to overcome sin by personal strength, I’m living by the power of the flesh, which is weak (Matt. 26:41). [/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]If I live by faith, I’m living in the power of the Spirit. (Rom 1:17; Gal 5:25; Gal 5:16)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]By my own efforts, “to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not, (Rom 7:18).[/FONT]
• · [FONT=&quot]By faith, God’s Spirit is at work in me [/FONT][FONT=&quot]to will[/FONT][FONT=&quot] and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]to do[/FONT][FONT=&quot] what pleases Him (Phil. 2:13)[/FONT]
• f I live the Christian life by self-effort & personal strength, I will overcome only what I am capable of overcoming. My works will be wood, hay, and stubble. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

• [FONT=&quot]If I live the Christian life by faith, Christ will do through me what I cannot do for myself. My works will be gold, silver, costly stones. (1 Cor. 3:11-15)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]A life of feeling sees trials as hindrances to its happiness. (Numbers 14:1-3)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]A life of faith sees events, circumstances, & trials as instruments of growth, knowing they are allowed or engineered by God. (Rom. 8:28-29; Jas. 1:2-3; Numbers 13:30)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]A life of feeling sees temptations as unexpected blessings. (2 Samuel 11:2-4)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]A life of faith sees temptations as training for battle. (James 1:2-3,12)[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]In Christ, I have victory; through faith in Christ I experience victory.[/FONT]
• [FONT=&quot]A life lived by feeling is a life of Self. A life lived by faith is a life of “not I but Christ.”[/FONT]

2. I am very happy if for you there would be no more issues. For many this has not been the case. I feel I must deal with their situation as they experience it, rather than what I think or wish their situation should be, just as I had to deal with my situation as it was not what it should be.

Click to expand...

I am a little confused on this. I assume that this is in response to my point 2. If so, how many people do you know that have been held captive and forced to drink for six months? What was the point of that question?

Hammster said:

I am a little confused on this. I assume that this is in response to my point 2. If so, how many people do you know that have been held captive and forced to drink for six months? What was the point of that question?

Click to expand...

Is that all you had to comment on? I'm confused; but I'll deal with your confusion first.

On 4/17 you said " rehab and AA were completely useless for me." Yet in #2 I'm hearing "If someone took me captive and fed me alcohol for six months, and I was somehow addicted, then it would be a medical problem and once I dried up, then there would be no more issues."
i guess I'm confused how a medical facility like rehab was no help for you, and yet in a state of sobriety now, you state that such a drying up is all it would take to get over the addiction. That may be true, they just look contradictory, that's all.

The point above, was that sometimes when you alleviate all the other "triggers" like resentment, fears, attitudes toward others, some people still have to deal with the fact that there's a strong drive to drink. So I wanted to present a scenario of drinking where the urge to drink didn't start from sinful things, that's all.

If you think that rehab did you no good, but still it would be enough for you (other than faith in the gospel of course), I'll leave that with you. I'm interested in your thoughts on the rest of the post, the thoughts on faith. Thanks,
H.

I didn't know that I needed to comment on your post on faith. I apologize. There was no disrespect intended. As for a comment, while it may be semantics, I would use "a gospel-centered life" as opposed to "a life of faith" for the simple reason that it more narrowly defines Who our faith is in. But other than that, it looks good to me.

To address the other issue, if someone is an alcoholic due to a sin issue, and you dry them up, the sin issue is still there. If someone is an alcoholic due to some strange alcohol-forcing captivity, and you dry them up, then they are good to go. Concedeing for the sake of argument the reality of alcoholism, what led you to whatever point of distinction that you have that makes one an alcoholic is either a sin issue or it isn't.

Hammster said:

I didn't know that I needed to comment on your post on faith. I apologize. There was no disrespect intended. As for a comment, while it may be semantics, I would use "a gospel-centered life" as opposed to "a life of faith" for the simple reason that it more narrowly defines Who our faith is in. But other than that, it looks good to me.

To address the other issue, if someone is an alcoholic due to a sin issue, and you dry them up, the sin issue is still there. If someone is an alcoholic due to some strange alcohol-forcing captivity, and you dry them up, then they are good to go. Concedeing for the sake of argument the reality of alcoholism, what led you to whatever point of distinction that you have that makes one an alcoholic is either a sin issue or it isn't.

Click to expand...

Does it really matter, in the grand scheme of things, if one admits that their alcoholism is, or is not, a sin issue.

If we break down the 12 steps a person uses in AA, you will see that the sin issue is dealt with.

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, and that our lives had become unmanageable.

A person is powerless not only over alcohol, but over their ability to stop sinning on their own power. Sin takes hold of a person, and it is only the blood of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit that allows anyone to have victory over any sin matter. Not to mention that the unmanageability a person experiences in their alcoholism is the chaos related to a life not controlled by the Holy Spirit.

2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

I call Christ my Higher Power, and I seek His healing touch and forgiveness on my chaotic, alcoholic life, in the hopes of regaining some sanity. Sanity could be figurative, or literal. In my case it is literal. I suffer from some co-occurring mental illnesses that flare up in their ugliest forms when I consume alcohol. Some of the behaviors that are exhibited in these flare-ups are sin issues, and need to be dealt with at the cross.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God.

Prior to accepting Christ as my Savior, my life was me centered. After accepting Christ, I attempt to have God in control of my life, including my willfulness. This is a decision I must make every day. If I fail to turn my life over to Him, I run on my own strength, and usually fall and sin.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory.

In simple terms, this is a list of our sins. If I follow the guidelines of the AA Big Book, it is more than just my sins. It cuts to my heart attitude, and asks me to make a list of the people I have resentment towards, and my negative emotions toward those people. God begins to do heart surgery on my sinful attitudes.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Confession of our sins, not only to God, but to a trusted friend. The beginning of accountability for future sins. Discipleship or mentoring here.

I will continue this discussion of the steps later, but I hope you saw my point. The believer who is working a 12 Step AA program is dealing with the sin in their lives, or they are not working the Steps, and if that is the case, they are doomed to drink again. If nothing changes, then nothing will change.

I hope this makes sense.