The 4th exception to killing???

[Grey Wanderer]

You're correct. As in anything doctrinal, many groups have different perspectives. The 10 commandments were for the Jews only, as was Levitical law. No where were any others taught to keep the Sabbath holy.

I think the confusion arises due to the few seemingly cultural laws in the 10 commandments mixed with moral commands. It's not that we pick and choose. Christ made it clear, love fulfills the law. Most of the commandments do relate to acts of love..love doesn't murder, steal, cheat, etx.. We don't obey commandments out of law, we obey them because they "do no harm" and fulfill the principle of love.

For the most part, many believe that God's moral law is written in the hearts of men.

So, in other words, do we get the original laws and shake them through the sifter of the New Testament to determine what laws remain?

And you're comment about the hearts of men, do you believe that's our instinctive compass?

I'll just come out and say it.....if my wife and/or children were murdered, my heart's compass would point WAY NORTH towards retribution. Does that natural, passionate reaction come from God purposely building our hearts this way? And do you ultimately believe it would be permissible to him for me to end the murderer's life?

 

[Grey Wanderer]

Sorry. Duplicate post from the glitch.....

 

[Walter Kovacs]

I'll just come out and say it.....if my wife and/or children were murdered, my heart's compass would point WAY NORTH towards retribution. Does that natural, passionate reaction come from God purposely building our hearts this way? And do you ultimately believe it would be permissible to him for me to end the murderer's life?

Permissible? Well, no, not in the eyes of the law. Justified? Absolutely.

So, in other words, do we get the original laws and shake them through the sifter of the New Testament to determine what laws remain?

Not quite. The moral law, the Ten Commandments which were for all to follow, are NOT the ritual/Levitical law/Hebrew national law, which were for Israel/Levite priests alone. As has been pointed out, Christ fulfilled the ritual law, and along with Paul reduced the moral law down to loving God and loving our neighbor. That's all Christians are bound by, though by doing those two simple things, all the rest of the law is fulfilled by us.

 

[Grey Wanderer]

Permissible? Well, no, not in the eyes of the law. Justified? Absolutely.

"Justified" by our perception of justified? God's perception of justified? Does he damn those that, in all honesty, had every right to take revenge?

Not quite. The moral law, the Ten Commandments which were for all to follow, are NOT the ritual/Levitical law/Hebrew national law, which were for Israel/Levite priests alone. As has been pointed out, Christ fulfilled the ritual law, and along with Paul reduced the moral law down to loving God and loving our neighbor. That's all Christians are bound by, though by doing those two simple things, all the rest of the law is fulfilled by us.

All these laws. So confused again. Mosaic, Levitical, Hebrew......You would've hoped there was just one base set forever and ever.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

"Justified" by our perception of justified? God's perception of justified? Does he damn those that, in all honesty, had every right to take revenge?[

There's no answer that doesn't sound lame, but I'll answer as best as I can. Murder and vigilante justice is legally wrong in America, and to try and go outside the law to exact justice is violation of the law of our land. Is it ethically and morally justifiable? Yes. However, our legal system dictates punishments for those caught in criminal acts, and generally they do a good job of a fair and just punishment being given. So really, to go outside our established system of justice, however justifiable, is still a sin being that it doesn't come between us and God. However, sin can be forgiven, so no, just because one takes revenge one isn't automatically damned.

Does that make sense? This is a tricky and dense subject, and I'm really only skimming the surface here. If you want me to expound just pick some points and let me know, I know this isn't an exhaustive answer.

All these laws. So confused again. Mosaic, Levitical, Hebrew......You would've hoped there was just one base set forever and ever.

There is now; love your neighbor, and love God

But I'll give you a quick breakdown of those laws:

Mosaic - The Law of Moses, the Torah. This was God's revelation to Israel through Moses. The Levitical/Hebrew law is all part of this overarching body of legislation.

Levitical - Laws pertaining specifically to the Levites, one of the tribes of Israel who's duty was to guard and oversee the Tabernacle/Temple and to perform the sacrifices. Why? They were the first folks to come to Moses and repent of their worshiping the Golden Calf.

Hebrew National Law - All of the legal codes pertaining to normal Hebrew life; penal codes, dietary restrictions, monetary legislation, etc.

Why are they no longer in effect?

The Levitical law is no longer needed because the Levite order of priests is no more. Why? Because Christ dwells within us and is accessible to all of us, without the need for a literal temple and priest.

Mosaic/Hebrew - The ritual/sacrificial law here is totally fulfilled by Christ - only the moral law remains, and Christ broke that down to the two commandments of love. The Hebrew national law I don't have a super answer for, other than it's just simply not in effect anymore. You might want to consult a Jewish source on that.

However, I wouldn't disregard the Hebrew/Levitical Law as a dead or unimportant thing...there is a LOT to be found in there. I recommend reading a Bible with some good commentary in the Penateuch; seriously, it's amazing how much of Christ and the New Covenant you see in there once you really start looking. Here's a couple resources I use:

http://christianthinktank.com/ - amazing site. specifically, this part : http://christianthinktank.com/finaltorah.html

English Standard Version (ESV) - Biblia.com - you have to register but it's easy, just an email and pw, they don't even send a confirmation email, and you have access to over 70 Bible translations and 50+ commentaries

http://www.amazon.com/Apologetics-Study-Bible-Understand-Believe/dp/158640024X - it sounds corny, but the commentary in this Bible has brought the OT to life for me. I highly recommend this Bible, and it's not uber expensive.

The reason for this is because Christianity *must* be seen in light of Judaism, it's parent religion. I'm rambling and a bit off topic here, but I think it's an important note. Christianity was a religion that didn't just pop up out of nowhere but came about as a a fulfilled Judaism; hence the term Judeo-Christianity. I don't think it's fair or safe to see Christianity as devoid of any Hebrew influences, as it came from a Jew (Jesus) was given to Jews and related to Jews. To try and see Christianity as a random bubble in the midst of Judaism just isn't right; Christianity needs to be seen in context of the story of the Hebrew people.

 

[Grey Wanderer]

A wealth of knowledge once again.

A big thanks.

 

[Armistead14]

So, in other words, do we get the original laws and shake them through the sifter of the New Testament to determine what laws remain?

And you're comment about the hearts of men, do you believe that's our instinctive compass?

I'll just come out and say it.....if my wife and/or children were murdered, my heart's compass would point WAY NORTH towards retribution. Does that natural, passionate reaction come from God purposely building our hearts this way? And do you ultimately believe it would be permissible to him for me to end the murderer's life?

I think it goes deeper than that. The nature of all mammals is self preservation. Doesn't matter if we evolved this way or God wrote it in our hearts, it's our nature to protect ourselves and those things in our life. I think love to an extent is just the need to perserve life so life can continue. Every emotion we have is somehow connected to self perservation.

Cultural and secular law are now the codes of the land. Certainly all law has a religious base and has been sifted over and over to get where we are. The goal is justice and fairness, but also to keep mankind moving forward. In that, often laws punish unfairly.

Walter gave some good info regarding laws. Even after Christ, a lot of confusion arose over the system of Jewish cultural laws. Christ didn't come to kill cultural law, he came to put away Lev/Hebrew laws, laws that connected man and God.

Why aspects of the levitical law were dead, much of the cultural law still existed and continued for hundreds of years among jews. Often when jewish and gentile christians worshipped they had conflict over cultural law, laws of marriage, eating, property rights, etc.. The different groups often came to Paul and wanted to know who was correct, usually Paul said both were correct, that what may be sin for one, isn't for the other. He knew you couldn't change culture, gave each culture the right to exist under the law of love. Paul was a great believer that "when in Rome, act like a Roman." He knew to reach people with Christ he had to operate under their cultural beliefs.

Gal: 5.6 "For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love."

We can also look at the Galatians who attempted to mix grace with aspects of Heb/Lev. law. Paul rebuked them with the famous " you have fallen from grace." Many pull this out of context, using this verse to teach men can lose salvation, that's not what Paul was saying. He simply said you have fallen from the teaching grace alone can save man.