The 4-point Calvinist's position - Nearer truth than full Calvinism or Arminianism?

[Albion]

When you write, "Any comments on the following, perhaps less than perfect, article?"...

...you probably are going to get a wide range of replies.

 

[drstevej]

false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them

So these are elect believers?

read on....

In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

​

I repeat

I think there are texts that have to be strained to fit Limited atonement.

 

[sdowney717]

So these are elect believers?

read on....

In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

​

I repeat

Yes, they are not elect believers.
The entire gist of the chapter is about false teachers in the church, in truth they are antichrists. the tares among the wheat.
That verse bought does not mention the blood of Christ, or them possessing the Holy Spirit.
In all other verses where we read of those bought or purchased there is an associated presence of the Holy Spirit or mention of sealing in the Holy Spirit with His blood or mention of them bought belonging to Christ as part of His body, the church of elect believers in Him.
Eph 1
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[b] is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Acts 20
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God[a] which He purchased with His own blood.

1 Cor 6

19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body[c] and in your spirit, which are God’s.
1 Cor 7
22 For he who is called in the Lord while a slave is the Lord’s freedman. Likewise he who is called while free is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brethren, let each one remain with God in that state in which he was called.

Rev 5
9 And they sang a new song, saying:
“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,



So in light of that, the phrase bought by the Lord must mean something entirely different.
Further on scripture shows such persons as unregenerate, they had some knowledge of God but were empty professors of Christ inside the church, not possessing His Spirit.


They display their true nature as dogs and swine.
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,”[e] and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”

Jesus tells us something about dogs ans swine that is revealing.
Matt 7

6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.


Christ tells us not to give holy things to dogs and swine, and so He will also not be giving Himself who is Holy to dogs and swine as well.

Here is a good read exploring the term bought by the Lord
Does 2 Peter 2:1 Deny Effectual Atonement? | Desiring God

Anyway good discussion going on.

 

[striger]

What denomination believes in 4 points?

 

[sdowney717]

2 Peter 2, that word 'Lord' refers to God not the Lord Christ. So they deny the Lord God, but not the Lord Christ. Which means it was not the Lord Christ who bought them.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord G1203 that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Example shown in Jude that points this out.

Jde 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord G1203 God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

These 2 words are totally different words in the Greek

BLB - Jde 1: Jude's Epistle 1 (Blue Letter Bible: KJV - King James Version) we can see there is a difference in the meaning going on here.

κύριος used in reference to Lord Christ, G2962 http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2962&t=KJV

des-po'-tās used in reference to Lord God, the word used in 2 Peter 2, G1203 Greek Lexicon :: G1203 (KJV)

 

[drstevej]

God bought them? How so? From whom? When? Whom else has God bought in this way? Are you curious about these implications of your interpretation or just glad to brush this verse out of view?

I think there are texts that have to be strained to fit Limited atonement.

 

[Albion]

What denomination believes in 4 points?

That's a good question. Does anyone know? I'm assuming that we're not speaking of one that merely tolerates members who believe in only 4 but makes this its official stance.

 

[sdowney717]

God bought them? How so? From whom? When? Whom else has God bought in this way? Are you curious about these implications of your interpretation or just glad to brush this verse out of view?

It is obvious Christ did not purchase them, dont you think?
All those Christ purchases with His blood are saved and these are lost.
Do you really think Christ purchases all men including false teachers and antichrists who Jesus tells us are not of God?

The web link talks about the word 'bought'.
Regardless, that word in the Greek, Lord - Master is never used for Christ in all the NT books, so it can not be Christ then who did that buying.

Just read it like this
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying GOD who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

This word is only in scripture 10 times and always means God, not Christ
Whereas Christ is refered to by Strong's Number G2962 matches the Greek κύριος (kyrios), which occurs 748 times in 687 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV


Strong's Number G1203 matches the Greek δεσπότης (despotēs),
which occurs 10 times in 10 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

Luk 2:29
Lord, G1203 now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

Act 4:24
And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, G1203 thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

1Ti 6:1
Let as many servants as are under the yoke count their own masters G1203 worthy of all honour, that the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed.

1Ti 6:2
And they that have believing masters, G1203 let them not despise them, because they are brethren; but rather do them service, because they are faithful and beloved, partakers of the benefit. These things teach and exhort.

2Ti 2:21
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, G1203 and prepared unto every good work.

Tit 2:9
Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, G1203 and to please them well in all things; not answering again;

1Pe 2:18
Servants, be subject to your masters G1203 with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

2Pe 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord G1203 that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jde 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord G1203 God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, G1203 holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

 

[sdowney717]

I have some more thoughts on this matter.

The idea of being bought here in 2 Peter 2, note v 2 and 3, their destruction is certain.

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does[a] not slumber.


The same is being spoken of in Jude, note v5

Old and New Apostates

5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.


God saved the people out from the world, but after that destroys those who dont believe. Consider God saves - buys the people. Same idea going on here in 2 Peter 2.

Notice Deu 32, God describing the people He has bought

5 “They have corrupted themselves;
They are not His children,
Because of their blemish:
A perverse and crooked generation.
6 Do you thus deal with the Lord,
O foolish and unwise people?
Is He not your Father, who bought you?
Has He not made you and established you?

So God delivered - BOUGHT the people out of Egypt, out from the world.
Yet they are not His children.

So we read further in 2 Pet 2, this is the BUYING process God did by delivering them from the pollutions of the world. But they are not His children, Deu 32:5-8.

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.

There you go, if anyone has eyes to see and a mind to understand let them believe what God has said.

 

[drstevej]

So these false teachers participated in the Exodus. Sweet!

 

[sdowney717]

So these false teachers participated in the Exodus. Sweet!

Oh really come on,
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

Whether they are false prophets - false teachers - false believers, God having bought- delivered them from the corruption of the world, after-wards destroys them that do not believe. I suppose they are just sort of along for the ride and do not last forever. Only a son lasts forever in the Lord's house.
The rest are there for a time and share in God's goodness along with those who are true.

34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

 

[drstevej]

I think there are texts that have to be strained to fit Limited atonement.

 

[sdowney717]

I think there are texts that have to be strained to fit Limited atonement.

Well I just discussed about the one you mentioned tha you believed supported unlimited atonement.

God can save whomever He wants to, in this sense His atonement is an unlimited potential atonement from our view point, cause we dont know who He will save, but from God's POV the sacrificing atonement of HIS shed blood is applied only for those who believe by faith Romans 3 says that. All Scripture is God breathed you know.

Atonement means God's wrath is turned away by a sacrificial offering.
BUT we read this

36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

So reading that I refuse to accept the sins of the world have been atoned for. it just distorts - twist the definition of propitiation- atonement. And I just wont go along with the illogical emotional argument someone who is stuck on God's love going to save everyone because of His universal atoning sacrifice that turned God's wrath away from the world where they will say the world's sins are removed from them by Christ's death and there is no more wrath on unbelievers.

22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Those whom He calls are the vessels of mercy and it is only for them to receive the sacrificial atonement of Christ, His shed blood applied sprinkled on them which results in forgiveness of their sins and justification from God.

Peter also speaks of this atonement for the elect alone when he says

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia,

2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit,

to be obedient to Jesus Christ



and sprinkled with his blood:
Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Those of the world who do not believe, God has NOT chosen them to be sprinkled with Jesus Christ's blood, for them their is no atonement, only wrath because they are vessels of wrath, so they have zero, none, no propitiation, no atoning sacrifice.

 

[Marvin Knox]

What denomination believes in 4 points?

That's a good question. Does anyone know?

THE FIRST PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH OF JOHN CALVIN:

A FEW QUOTES BY JOHN CALVIN:

1 John 2:2--"he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world"----------------------- "CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. and in the goodness of God is OFFERED UNTO ALL MEN WITHOUT DISTINCTION, HIS BLOOD BEING SHED NOT FOR A PART OF THE WORLD ONLY, BUT FOR THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE; for although in the world nothing is found worthy of the favor of God, yet he HOLDS OUT THE PROPITIATION TO THE WHOLE WORLD, since without exception he SUMMONS ALL TO THE FAITH OF CHRIST, which is nothing else than the door unto hope."

Mark 14:24: "This is my blood of the new testament, WHICH IS SHED FOR MANY"..................... "The word 'many' DOES NOT MEAN A PART OF THE WORLD ONLY, BUT THE WHOLE HUMAN RACE: he contrasts many with one as if to say that he would not be the Redeemer of one man, but would meet death to deliver many of their cursed guilt. No doubt that in speaking to a few Christ wished to make His teaching available to a larger number...So when we come to the holy table not only should the general idea come to our mind that THE WORLD IS REDEEMED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST but also each should reckon to himself that his own sins are covered.


Romans 5:18: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life."
"Paul makes grace COMMON TO ALL MEN, not because it in fact EXTENDS TO ALL, but because IT IS OFFERED TO ALL. Although CHRIST SUFFERED FOR THE SINS OF THE WORLD. AND IS OFFERED BY THE GOODNESS OF GOD WITHOUT DISTINCTION TO ALL MEN, yet not all receive him"

Calvin's "LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT, April 25, 1564":
"I testify also and declare, that I suppliantly beg of Him, that He may be pleased so to was and purify me in the blood which my Sovereign Redeemer HAS SHED FOR THE SINS OF THE HUMAN RACE, that under His shadow I may be able to stand at the judgment-seat...."

** SOURCES:

Mark 14:24 passage:
COMMENTARY ON A HARMONY OF THE EVANGELISTS, MATTHEW, MARK, AND LUKE, BY JOHN CALVIN
TRANSLATED FROM THE ORIGINAL LATIN, AND COLLATED WITH THE AUTHOR'S FRENCH VERSION, VOLUME THIRD BY THE REV. WILLIAM PRINGLE
CHRISTIAN CLASSICS ETHEREAL LIBRARY -- GRAND RAPIDS, MI

Romans 5:18 passage:
COMMENTARIES ON THE EPISTLE OF PAUL THE APOSTLE TO THE ROMANS
BY JOHN CALVIN
TRANSLATED AND EDITED BY THE REV. JOHN OWEN, VICAR OF THRUSSINGTON, LEICESTERSHIRE
CHRISTIAN CLASSICS ETHEREAL LIBRARY GRAND RAPIDS, MI

Concerning Calvin’s will:
History of the Christian Church, Volume VIII: Modern Christianity. “The Swiss Reformation”
§ 165. Calvin’s Last Will, and Farewells.

Regarding the 1 John 2:2 passage the best I can do is give you the reference that I have. I do not have a reference from the works of Calvin himself. Perhaps you can better research it out better than I was able to.

Dr. Augustus H. Strong, in his standard Systematic Theology Vol. II, Doctrine of Salvation, page 778, quotes from “CALVIN'S LATER COMMENTS”

Frankly Calvin was a bit ambiguous on this particular doctrine. He seems to have changed his mind in later years. That shows character to me.

Here are a few more things to consider (from the same Calvin source as before (different volumes).

Concerning John 1.29 “And when he says, the sin Of The World, he extends this favor indiscriminately to the whole human race… and that as all men without exception are guilty of unrighteousness before God…Now our duty is, to embrace the benefit which is offered to all, that each of us may be convinced that there is nothing to hinder him from obtaining reconciliation in Christ, provided that he comes to him by the guidance of faith.”

Concerning John 3:14-16 “…that faith in Christ brings life to all, and that Christ brought life, because the Heavenly Father loves the human race, and wishes that they should not perish…And he has employed the universal term whosoever, both to invite all indiscriminately to partake of life, and to cut off every excuse from unbelievers. Such is also the import of the term World, which he formerly used; for though nothing will be found in the world that is worthy of the favor of God, yet he shows himself to be reconciled to the whole world, when he invites all men without exception to the faith of Christ, which is nothing else than an entrance into life…”

Concerning John 16:8-11 “…Under the term world are, I think, included not only those who would be truly converted to Christ, but hypocrites and reprobates.”

Concerning Gal. 5:12 “His indignation proceeds still farther, and he prays for destruction on those impostors by whom the Galatians had been deceived. The word, "cut off," appears to be employed in allusion to the circumcision which they pressed. "They tear the church for the sake of circumcision: I wish they were entirely cut off." Chrysostom favors this opinion. But how can such an imprecation be reconciled with the mildness of an apostle, who ought to wish that all should be saved, and that not a single person should perish? So far as men are concerned, I admit the force of this argument; for it is the will of God that we should seek the salvation of all men without exception, as Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world.”

Concerning Col. 1:14 “He says that this redemption was procured through the blood of Christ, for by the sacrifice of his death all the sins of the world have been expiated.”

 

[Albion]

THE FIRST PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH OF JOHN CALVIN:

Got a mailing address or website for that?

I take it then, that no one knows of a denomination that's in synch with this 4 point POV. Still, I'd think that at least one out of all the Reformed, Presbyterian, and even Baptist churches would qualify.

 

[sdowney717]

Marvin, how though, of what you just posted is this an actual unlimited atonement, an unlimited propitiation an unlimited atoning sacrifice for some one's sins?

It is by faith that the atonement is actually realized and accomplishes something.

Atonement Christianity The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus.

What is reconciliation, it comes by the cross, but unbelievers are not reconciled to God, otherwise why would Paul plead with people to be reconciled to God..

Question: "What is propitiation?"

Answer: The word propitiation carries the basic idea of appeasement, or satisfaction, specifically towards God. Propitiation is a two-part act that involves appeasing the wrath of an offended person and being reconciled to him.

​

So how then is their unlimited propitiation.

 

[sdowney717]

I think there are texts that have to be strained to fit Limited atonement.

Verses like these?

This in Mark seems to fit very well.
Mark 4

10 But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. 11 And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, 12 so that

‘Seeing they may see and not perceive,
And hearing they may hear and not understand;
Lest they should turn,
And their sins be forgiven them.’”[c]

Matt 1
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Isa. 53:8

Isaiah 53:8New King James Version (NKJV)

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.

John 10:15New King James Version (NKJV)

15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.

 

[striger]

Got a mailing address or website for that?

I take it then, that no one knows of a denomination that's in synch with this 4 point POV. Still, I'd think that at least one out of all the Reformed, Presbyterian, and even Baptist churches would qualify.

There is nothing on that denomination. The poster made it up to make a statement that the presbyterians worship john calvin instead of jesus Christ. The poster found a loophole in the rules to say that and got away with it.

Instead, I broke the rules for claiming it don't exist.

 

[Albion]

There is nothing on that denomination. The poster made it up to make a statement that the presbyterians worship john calvin instead of jesus Christ. The poster found a loophole in the rules to say that and got away with it.

Instead, I broke the rules for claiming it don't exist.

Yes, I know that wasn't the name of a denomination, but do you really think he was saying that "presbyterians worship john calvin instead of jesus Christ?" I don't.

 

[striger]

Yes, I know that wasn't the name of a denomination, but do you really think he was saying that "presbyterians worship john calvin instead of jesus Christ?" I don't.

It was against the rules for me to comment on a non-existant denomination.

But todays fad of anticalvinism points out nonexistent weakness that makes them not speak true gospel.

Its a fad due to calvinism proof texts over time. Over time, the truths convicts sinners of being a sinner.

Calvinism still stands and survives under God predestination.

The gospel never dies out.