The 4-point Calvinist's position - Nearer truth than full Calvinism or Arminianism?

[sdowney717]

Just for fun... a parable I wrote

The Parable of the Amyraldian

Unlimited Atonement yet Limited Attainment​

A wealthy man buys ten tickets to Hawaii and has his Son pay cash for them. He sends a letter to ten people with a ticket purchased for them and invites them to join him in Hawaii.

He also sends a Special Courier to deliver three of the tickets to a select group of the ten and has the Courier earnestly persuade them to go {His persuasion is irresistible!} The Courier then escorts them onto the plane insuring they get to Hawaii.

The other seven get the letter and the ticket that has been purchased for them, but because they hate the wealthy man [he makes them feel guilty] they refuse to use the ticket. They each think. If I ever go to Hawaii, I'm going MY way. No one is paying my way, especially not That Guy!

The wealthy man, his son and the courier rejoice with the three in Hawaii. The other seven never make it and their tickets, while paid in full, are never used. While the three are in the beauty of Hawaii with the wealthy man a plague strikes the home towns of the seven and they perish.

NOTE: This is an artificially constructed parable to show how the price can be paid in full for those who refuse to receive the gift. The Father's election and the Spirit's persuasion are limited to the elect, yet a ticket purchased by the Son is legitimately extended to all.

Unlimited Atonement yet Limited Attainment ​

The idea your saying is they are invited to come along for free, yet because of their stubborn nature refuse.
About that can you say God calls all people to be saved and know Him? If so then unlimited atonement will make more sense. But atonement really means an actual forgiveness. So even if they are invited and refuse they have no propitiation and so they have wrath from God.

But seriously did Jesus really invite all or does He just call some.
Support that scripturally if you can and I can show you where Jesus does not, like in Luke 10, unless your a uniiversalist.

The calling of God must also be part of the atoning sacrifice.
Any ideas?

 

[drstevej]

So, do you deny the free offer of the gospel? Many 5 pointers do not.

 

[sdowney717]

So, do you deny the free offer of the gospel? Many 5 pointers do not.

Never think of that way myself.
Yet they are not free to come are they?
Are they lost slaves of Satan and sin, are their minds blinded by the god of this world?

2 Cor 4
3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

I have never been one to go along to get along.

 

[drstevej]

Wiki

The free offer of the Gospel, sometimes called the well-meant offer of the gospel, in Christian theology, is the offer of salvation in Jesus Christ to all people. It is generally accepted by Calvinists, but rejected by a few small Reformed denominations, such as the Evangelical Presbyterian Church in Australia[1] and the Protestant Reformed Churches in America, and also by some English Strict Baptists of longer standing, such as John Gill and, later, the Gospel Standard Strict Baptists.

 

[sdowney717]

Wiki

The free offer of the Gospel, sometimes called the well-meant offer of the gospel, in Christian theology, is the offer of salvation in Jesus Christ to all people. It is generally accepted by Calvinists, but rejected by a few small Reformed denominations, such as the Evangelical Presbyterian Church in Australia[1] and the Protestant Reformed Churches in America, and also by some English Strict Baptists of longer standing, such as John Gill and, later, the Gospel Standard Strict Baptists.

force of numbers does not equal truth.
Seeing the scripture I posted, I ask you are those of the world able to make a free will choice?

If your honest with me, you can only say no.

 

[drstevej]

I am a four point Calvinist. Here is my understanding of free will.

The "Liver & Onions Parable"
The Reformed Doctrine of Free Will

Suppose you detest L&O. The sight and smell makes you sick.



Just once, to appease a friend that insisted that L&O really is good tasting, you touched your tongue's tip to the L&O and the taste repulsed you.

You are invited to a buffet where a friend suggests you try some L&O. You refuse. He insists that the L&O is wonderful. He takes a bite and smiles saying "Just try it." You say, "No way!"

You freely reject the L&O because of your senses (sight, taste and smell). You do so on this occasion and every occasion it is offered to you. Your action regarding L&O is predictable and certain.

► SUCH is the unregenerate person's free rejection of God because his heart and nature is only evil continuously.

===

Now suppose this L&O loather is supernaturally changed into a L&O lover.

God changes his taste buds as well as olfactory and mental responses. Now, at the buffet he asks his friend, "What smells so good?" He is surprised to find that the great smell comes from a plate of L&O! He is further surprised that it really doesn't look that bad now, in fact it looks good. He is salivating.

He grabs a fork and timidly takes a small bite to his tongue for a test. The test becomes a taste -- then he eats a huge serving. L&O has suddenly become his favorite food. From that day on he looks for L&O whenever he can find it and he specifically requests it. He is a L&O lover now.

He freely and predictably chooses L&O after this craving has been placed upon him by God.

► SUCH is the response of one who is regenerated by receiving a new heart and nature.

====

BTW, in Heaven... Everyone loves L&O. Nothing else is eaten or even desired. All freely savor the smell and taste of L&O forever and ever. Hallelujah!



​

 

[drstevej]

God tickles the willer of the elect in Irresistable Grace when the gift of faith is given.

 

[Job8]

If their sins are removed from them, why then do unbelivers go to hell?

The answer was already given. Those who do not obey the Gospel go to Hell. The Bible gives you a very clear answer (Mk 16:15,16; Jn 3:17-20;36; 2 Thess 1:8,9) so please note the bolded words and believe them.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. [PLEASE NOTE CAREFULLY]
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

You by logic are a universalist.

The universalist believes that all human beings will be saved, regardless of whether they obey the Gospel or not. The Biblicist believes that only those who obey the Gospel will receive the gift of eternal life.

 

[sdowney717]

God tickles the willer of the elect in Irresistable Grace when the gift of faith is given.

Yes, God shines His light into our hearts, those He has saved, we are changed by Him. But you still have not answered me, are men free to believe, free to respond to the gospel. or are they blinded by Satan.

3 But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. 5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. 6 For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

 

[drstevej]

Answered in post #66 and #67.

 

[sdowney717]

Answered in post #66 and #67.

Well ok, I am glad you agree then, at least I think you do.?
Why can't people just say the amen.
God says so and I say amen to what God has said.

 

[drstevej]

If you had read my posts I would not have had to answer your question.

 

[sdowney717]

If you had read my posts I would not have had to answer your question.

I did but all I wanted was yeah, or nay.
Not a longer response. A lot can be hidden in the fine print.

Anyway this has lost my focus.

Give me your gut feeling for why you believe in Unlimited atonement, in your own words, not a story.'
I am interested in how your thinking goes.

 

[drstevej]

I think there are texts that have to be strained to fit Limited atonement.

eg.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

 

[drstevej]

Please excuse my quoting the Bible when you explicatedly said MY words.

 

[sdowney717]

Please excuse my quoting the Bible when you explicatedly said MY words.

That's ok. So because some verses seem contradictory, or do you think they are not?
I view scriptures as they must consistently be in harmony with each other, weighing them, to the others otherwise we will not be understanding the truth being taught. God would not speak so one way then another that teaches the opposite.

 

[sdowney717]

I think there are texts that have to be strained to fit Limited atonement.

eg.

But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.

So in your understanding, this supports unlimited atonement, does it also support that salvation can be lost?

 

[drstevej]

nope

 

[sdowney717]

nope

So what do you think Peter is saying, denying the Lord who bought them?
Are all men bought by the Lord's blood, even the unsaved?

 

[Marvin Knox]

sdowney717

I can't seem to get out of here without continued comments. One last one for you and the others who seem to take issue with 4-pointers.

Then I really am out of here.

I started this thread with a particular question state quite clearly.

"Any comments on the following, perhaps less than perfect, article?"

http://evangelicalarminians.org/wp-c...-Atonement.pdf

"Let's not lapse into side arguments here please."

(Yea right!)

I'll be gone for a while and I got to thinking that it would be a crying shame to come back and still find that you and others never got around to the stated reason for this thread. It's been many dozens of posts now and many seem bent on proving what I have always said about this portion of the forum.

Everyone likes to preach their ideas. But very few will truly consider the ideas of others.

How about it - now that you've been able to cut and paste to your heart's content and vent your own beliefs til the cows come home?

Anyone want to tell me what is wrong with Ware's way of presenting things? Or are you just wedded to using the term "limited atonement" because that's what the big boys do and you won't consider anything that doesn't tow the party line?

I'm looking for a few open minds. I can dream can't I?

See y'all later!