That's not in Scripture!!!!

[Preachers12]

Brethren in Christ, God give you Peace.

Do you know how many times and where (citation) Scripture (OT) is explicitly quoted or referred to in the Gospels that we have no record of in our OT? That is, where it is recorded in the Gospel(s) that something is from Scripture, but that it is not Scripture which we have a record of?

God Bless,
P12

 

[countrymousenc]

Matthew 2:23, perhaps John 18:9.

 

[II Paradox II]

oops... nevermind... I read the question wrong...

ken

 

[Phoebe]

How many?



Is this about the validity of the Apocrypha?

 

[II Paradox II]

Matthew 2:23

The passage in Mt. 2:23 is intriguing. Personally, I take the view that Matthew is referring to the broad sweep of prophetic teaching as to the lowliness of the messiah, associating that with the culturally recognized low status of "nazarenes". In other words, his reference to the prophet(s) teaching is his hint that the passage should not be sought out in one verse, but in a broader look at the prophets...

ken

 

[II Paradox II]

Is this about the validity of the Apocrypha?

no, he asked about when the NT quotes a supposed OT passage that doesn't seem to exist anywhere, OT, Apocrypha or otherwise...

ken

 

[Phoebe]

Mt. 2:23

My Bible concordance refers me to Isaiah 11:1.

 

[II Paradox II]

Mt. 2:23

My Bible concordance refers me to Isaiah 11:1.

It refers it there because one of the common explanations for this passage is that Matthew is using a word play here. The hebrew root for "branch" and "nazarene" are similar so the theory is that perhaps matthew was referring to this passage...

ken

 

[JVAC]

From what I gather you want us to cite where Gospels use OT and from which prophet/Law:



Matthew 1:3 ~ Isaiah 7:14
Matt 2:6 ~ Michah 5:2
Matt 2:15 ~ Hosea 11:1
Matt 2:18 ~ Jer. 31:15
Matt 3:3 ~ Isaiah 40:3
Matt 4:4 ~ Deuteronomy 8:3
Matt 4:6 ~ Psalm 91:11-12
Matt 4:7 ~ Deuteronomy 6:16
Matt 4:10 ~ Deut 6:13
Matt 4:15-16 ~ Idaiah 9:1-2
Matt 5:21 ~ Exodus 20:13
Matt 5:27 ~ Exodus 20:14
Matt 5:31 ~ Deut 24:1
Matt 5:38 ~ Exodus 21:24; Lev 24:20; Deut 19:21
Matt 5:43 ~ Lev. 19:18
Matt 8:17 ~ Isaiah 53:4
Matt 9:13 ~ Hosea 6:6


There is a sample of the many references, there are a lot more too, but I am getting tired of typing.

-James

 

[Phoebe]

I think it's where the NT uses terms such as, "as the prophets said..." and yet it isn't found in the OT. (A fulfillment of prophesy, but we can't find the prohesy documented in the OT.)

 

[Phoebe]

I think it's where the NT uses terms such as, "as the prophets said..." and yet it isn't found in the OT. (A fulfillment of prophesy, but we can't find the prohesy documented in the OT.)

I was watching a discussion about something similar on TV. Some Jewish were attempting to prove that Jesus was not the Messiah. They were saying that the word Nazarene was misinterpreted. Nazarene was not the proper word/ translation.


(I am such a putz. I hit quote instead of edit the first try.)

 

[Preachers12]

It refers it there because one of the common explanations for this passage is that Matthew is using a word play here. The hebrew root for "branch" and "nazarene" are similar so the theory is that perhaps matthew was referring to this passage...

ken

Ken, God give you Peace.

That is what I have found too. This is one of the references to Scripture which we cannot find in our Scripture. I don't know that anyone knows what Matthew was talking about there. Given the reaction by Nathanael to Philip in the Gospel of John, it doesn't appear that he was aware of any Scripture indicating that Nazareth would produce the Messiah.

God Bless,
P12

 

[Preachers12]

I think it's where the NT uses terms such as, "as the prophets said..." and yet it isn't found in the OT. (A fulfillment of prophesy, but we can't find the prohesy documented in the OT.)

Phoebe, God give you Peace.

Exactly, but with one difference. I am limiting this to the Gospels, not all of the NT. I would like to explore that too, but separately.

God Bless,
P12

 

[ChrisB]

How about this passage in Luke

Luke 1

68"Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel,
because he has come and has redeemed his people.
69He has raised up a horn of salvation for us
in the house of his servant David
70(as he said through his holy prophets of long ago),

The phrase "horn of salvation" is used in Psalm 18 but in the present tense so is not quite the same in my opinion.

Psalm 18
2 The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge.
He is my shield and the horn of my salvation, my stronghold.

 

[Bastoune]

It refers it there because one of the common explanations for this passage is that Matthew is using a word play here. The hebrew root for "branch" and "nazarene" are similar so the theory is that perhaps matthew was referring to this passage...

ken

It was sort of a play on words perhaps, or possibly unwritten prophecy but yes, the messianic title "the branch" (Is 4:2, 11:1; Jer 23:5; 33:15; Zech 3:8; 6:12) sounds like "Nazarene" or "Nazoreen."

 

[Bastoune]

It gets very interesting when we read John 19:19 which is: 'Pilate also wrote an inscription and put it on the cross. It was written, 'Jesus the Nazarene, the King of the Jews.' It can equally be translated like this: 'Jesus My Branch, the King of the Jews.'

In Hebrew, the word "branch" is netzer, actually only three consonantal letters: NZR. Note that the town NaZaReth contains the same three primary letters (plus an ending often attached to nouns). In the Aramaic form of Nazareth, (Aramaic was the common language spoken by most Israelites after the exile; some have suggested that the entire book of Matthew was originally written in Aramaic rather than Greek), it comes very close in sound to the Hebrew word for "branch."


There’s an interesting commentary on “spoken prophecy” on an independent Protestant site, http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/spoken_written.html



For many, this verse is a cause of trouble since the SPOKEN prophecy that the Messiah would be called a Nazarene can nowhere be found written in the Old Testament. To solve this "difficulty", a connection is sometimes assumed (see ftn.1) between the term "Nazarene" and the Hebrew word "netser" that means "branch". Apart from the fact that this connection is no more than a mere supposition, the inconsistency of this view is also shown in that while Matthew 2:23 says that the prophecy was uttered by "the prophets" i.e. by a plural number of people, the word "netser" was used for Christ only by Isaiah (Isaiah 11:1, see ftn.2)).

However, we believe that whole "problem" is not but a problem CREATED by the fact that we don't pay attention to what we read. Really, while the Scripture says that the prophecy was SPOKEN [Greek: "to rethen" meaning "that which was spoken"] by the prophets, what we understand is that the prophecy was WRITTEN [Greek: "o gegraptai" meaning "that which stands written"] by the prophets. However, when the text says SPOKEN means SPOKEN. Some prophecies were spoken and not written. Some others were not spoken but only written, while some others were both spoken and written. When we read a quotation that says "as it is written", we will find it 100% in the Scripture, since it is guaranteed that it is WRITTEN. However, when what is quoted is said that it was simply SPOKEN, then we may find it written but we may also not find it written. The Word does not guarantee that it was written. What it guarantees is that it was SPOKEN.

There are fifteen quotations in the Bible for which we are told that they were SPOKEN (see ftn.3). To see whether they were both spoken and written, or whether they were only spoken, we have to search the Scripture to see if we can find them. A search like this shows that all the prophecies that were spoken were also written, APART from two of them. These are:

i) the prophecy that Jesus will be called a Nazarene. The fulfillment of this prophecy is given in Matthew 2:23. This prophecy was only SPOKEN by the prophets and it was latter written down by Matthew. This is also a form of the figure of speech "hysteresis" or "subsequent narration". By this figure "the Holy Spirit, in later and subsequent Scriptures, adds supplementary details which were not given in the history itself; and sometimes even historical facts, of which no mention had before been made (see ftn.4)". One of these facts of which no mention was made before is the prophecy that the Messiah would be called a Nazarene. This prophecy was SPOKEN by plural number of prophets. It was not written by them but by Matthew who made it known together with its fulfillment.

ii) Apart from Matthew 2:23, another passage that for similar reasons is a stumbling block for many, is Matthew 27:9-10:

"Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of him who was priced, whom they of the children of Israel priced and gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord directed me"

The problem that many have with this passage is that this quotation cannot be found anywhere in the book of Jeremiah (see ftn.5). To "solve" this difficulty, it has been suggested that Matthew 27:9-10 is actually a quotation from Zechariah 11:12-13 on the base that both passages speak for "thirty pieces of silver".

Apart from the great differences between these two passages, the inconsistencies of this view are made clear by the fact that God in Matthew 27:9-10 says that the prophecy was SPOKEN BY JEREMIAH. If these verses were a quotation from Zechariah, God instead of Jeremiah, would have told us Zechariah. In other words, instead of telling us "Then was fulfilled what was SPOKEN by JEREMIAH" He would have told us "Then was fulfilled what was WRITTEN by ZECHARIAH". We believe that when God says Jeremiah He means Jeremiah and therefore no one has the right to say that He actually means Zechariah.

However, again the problem is not but a CREATED problem. And it is created because we don't pay attention to what we read. The text does not say that the prophecy was WRITTEN but that it was SPOKEN. Some prophecies were only written and not spoken. Some others were both written and spoken while some others were only spoken and not written. The prophecy quoted in Matthew 27:9-10 was SPOKEN but it was NOT WRITTEN. Matthew by the figure of speech "hysteresis" or "subsequent narration" informs us about this prophecy long after it was SPOKEN.

 

[Preachers12]

Brethren in Christ, God give you Peace.

Thanks for all the wonderful discussion! Someone had asked earlier if this had something to do with the Apocrypha. It does not. I personally spend much time meditating on the life of Jesus, in order that by coming to know Him better, I might be better able to imitate Him. This thought came up in one of my meditations and I wanted to explore it with you at CF so that you too may join me in getting to know our Lord and His Word better. Had it been my intention to make some point about the Apocrypha, I would have posed a different question/thought.

As it is, the answer(s) to this question, in my opinion, has negative implications for those believing in sola Scriptura (non-Catholics) AND for those believing (Catholics) that the Septuagint (as we now have it in the Catholic Bible) was the Scripture used by Jesus, His apostles and disciples and everywhere else in the region (Gentiles, Sadduccees and Samaritans excepted, of course). But I am not interested in discussing how either of those implications affects those various arguments. I am interested in getting more familiar with the Word of God. If anyone wants to explore those implications, please don’t do it here.

Here are the verses so far offered in response to the OP: Mt 2:23; Mt 27:9-10; Jn 18:9 and; Lk 1:68-70.

Mt 2:23 is clearly not in Scripture. What Matthew is referring to, we will not know until we join him.

Mt:27:9-10 is not in Jeremiah directly, though it is written as a quote from Jeremiah. It has some similarities with Jeremiah 18: 2-3 and Jeremiah 32: 6-15. Part of it is also found in Zechariah 11:12-13. I think it is safe to say on this one that it, like Mt 2:23, is something outside of our known Scripture.

Jn 18:9 is related to Jesus’ prayer in Jn 17:12. It doesn’t claim to come from the OT.

Lk 1:68-70 is a “new” prophesy by Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist. While it has parts that are drawn from Scripture, because it is said to be Zechariah’s prophesy, it also doesn’t claim to come from the OT.

So far, I think that we have found two that fit the OP.

Consider too Jn 5:46-47. Does anyone know what specific writing of Moses Jesus is talking about? I can almost see the Pharisees that He was speaking too collaborating and pouring through Scripture all night after Jesus told them this, trying to figure out what He was talking about! You can bet they did just that!

God Bless,
P12

PS - This discussion is also on OBOB if you would like to check it out.