That bomb...

[seebs]

Honestly, I would guess that fewer Japanese civilians were killed by the a-bombs than would have been in an actual invasion, but it's just a guess.

 

[Yekcidmij]

That would be my guess too seebs

 

[loribee59]

Today at 06:59 PM Susan said this in Post #10




Let me apply that logic to another situation.

A gunmaker is talking to a reporter questioning the logic for making a new gun. "But, this is not a miniature machine gun. It is a submachine pistol that can fire 9 hollow point bullets in 5 seconds. Sure, murder's bad, and more likely than not, that is the use of this weapon. But if there are to be murders, don't you think thugs should have the best possible tool to get the job done?"

;;^.^;;

*blinks* whoa....

I'd hate to use a pun here, but isn't that "overkill" in applying that technology will get the "job done" regardless of human life? 

where is it that Paul had said in his letters to the churches that in the last days that men will become wise in their own eyes, but to us they're fools. 

I dunno if this is done unwittingly or intentionally, but we're all playing right into God's hands.  We're all doing our bit parts in this prophecy that's unfolding right now. 

 ~loribee59


 

 

[Wolseley]

People will be willing to do anything, and I mean anything, to anyone to save their own skin. For instance, if a soldier is told "shoot that civilian or you will die," he would most likely shoot the civilian to save his own life.

Susan, in the United States armed forces, no soldier is required to obey any direct order which is illegal or contrary to the rules of war. Both the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the Code of Conduct issued by the Judge Advocate General clearly state that civilian noncombatants are not to be targeted or treated inhumanely, that you may not cause harm or destruction beyond the stated objectives of your assigned mission, and that even if you are ordered to do so by a superior officer, to comply with orders that are clearly in violation of these regulations is no excuse, and will get you tried and convicted of war crimes in a military court.

For further information, I suggest you may want to locate and read a copy of the Code of Conduct under the Law of War and the Uniform Code of Military Justice, so that you might actually have an idea of what you're talking about here. Soldiers are not unconstrained barbarians that run amok killing everything in their way simply because they are soldiers, and your constant implication that they are is inaccurate, offensive, and tiresome. Soldiers are bound by regulations of armed conflict, and if they step outside those regulations, they end up in serious trouble.

No matter what you might like to think, Susan, military personnel are not the lowest of criminals, nor are they evil incarnate. Since you yourself have never served one day's span in uniform, and due to your rather tender age, I submit that while you may have an opinion on these matters, unless you have been there and done that, you don't know what you're talking about. When you have been four feet from the man facing you with a bayonet on the end of an AK-47 and have had to decide what you were going to do in the next three seconds, then you can offer an opinion that might actually carry some weight. I apologize for sounding harsh, but there it is.

IIRC hadn't Japan made an offer to surrender through Stalin? I mean sometime in July before the "military base" of Hiroshima was hit by the enola gay.

Hiroshima was the headquarters of the 2nd Japanese Army. Ironically, the aiming point was a huge parade field near the city center, and on the morning of the bomb drop, almost the entire 2nd Army was on this parade field, doing calisthenics. The bomb exploded directly overhead, and the whole army was vaporized---sort of the equivalent of the entire US Marine Corps being wiped out instantaneously.

The Emperor and his diplomats, such as Shigenori Togo and Premier Suzuki, were fishing for a solution to ending the war with the Soviet Foreign Minister, Jacob Malik; the problem was that the Japanese high command (General Anami, General Umezu, and Admiral Toyoda) wasn't interested in surrender and they were fishing on their own for ways to continue the war. The intrigue between various factions in the Japanese military and government continued right up to the surrender on Sept. 2---with one air force plot to launch kamikaze attacks on the USS Missouri being foiled at the last minute, when pro-surrender factions led by Hirohito's younger brother, Prince Takamatsu, showed up at the Atsugi airfield and talked them out of it. There was very little in the way of a unified approach to ending the war on the Japanese side.

Three excellent resources if you're interested:

Thomas Allen and Norman Polmar, Code-Name Downfall. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1995.

William Craig, The Fall of Japan. New York: Galahad Books, 1967.

William Manchester, The Glory and the Dream. Boston: Little, Brown, and Co., 1973.

 

[OneLargeToe]

Thank <I>God</I> those <I>brave</I> soldiers didn't have to invade Japan thanks to us killing hundreds of thousands of men, <I>women</I> and <I><B>children</B></I>.

Hey, better them than us,&nbsp;I say.

The testing of the MOAB is clearly a psychological ploy directed at Iraq.&nbsp; Hopefully it'll convince Saddam to start following the demands of the UN resolution, but I'm sure it'll have little effect on changing his mind.&nbsp; Obviously, the guy is a mad man.

 

[Sailor_4_Christ]

Wolseley-
&nbsp; I would like to thank you for clearing that up, you took the words right out of my mouth.

And if I can put in my 2 cents. &nbsp;I know that there are alot of people that do not support war or the military, but to be completely oppossed to a force that helps keep our country free saddens me. Because this is what I do, to support my family, to put food on the table, clothes on their back and a roof over their head. I know that I can't speak for all military personnel, but I don't tell anyone else that I think their job is wrong and that they shouldn't do it. But it is a free country so everyone is entitled to there own opinion, but just remember the reason our country is free, they are called Veterans, they are your Grandfathers, Grandmothers, Husbands, Wives, best friends. But I can tell you, I would not change where the Lord has lead me to, even if I could, I love being in the military, helping keep my family, friends and every American free. I would glady, with-out hesitation,&nbsp;give my life in battle if I knew that it was helping keep my beloved home safe for my family AND yours.

That's all for now.
God Bless!!

 

[Yekcidmij]

Wolseley....nice post

 

[Michael0701]

Wolseley, as usual, excellent post!!

Yekcidmij, I love the avatar!!

As for the OP, That bomb........ yeah, she's something, ain't she. I'd hate to be in the bunker when that baby falls.

 

[nephilimiyr]

To form our nation there was the Revolutionary War, to free the slaves and keep this great country together there was the Civil War, to keep this country free and to stop the atrosities toward fellow human beings there was WWII. For every single freedom we experience there had to be someone, somewhere dieing in order for us to live our lives the way we do now. Although I am still not convinced that this possible war with Iraq is needed I object to the idea that all war is wrong. If this new big bomb saves lives in the long run, as I'm sure it will,&nbsp;I am totally for it!

 

[Dewjunkie]

It's amazing how people who never have served seem to think that the US is just going to arbitrarily lob 18,000 lbs. bombs into Baghdad hoping they hit a military target. There is far more involved, and the US military goes to great lengths to ensure they are hitting military targets. It's Saddam who puts anti-aircraft guns on top of schools and parks mobile missile platforms next to hospitals. If civilians die en masse in Iraq, it's more likely a result of Saddam's propaganda tactics than it is the US running around "guns ablazin'".

Wolsely, I second your feelings towards those who have never worn the uniform.

 

[Ajnin]

Wolseley, I'd read in Truman's diary somewhere where he and Stalin talked over an offer from the Japanese emperor, but I never knew that much background about it. Thanks for the info, and the book references, I'll try to dig up those books and read them over spring break.

Dewjunkie, sure Saddam's rotten and treats his people like garbage, but the US does need to exercise more caution when dropping bombs. Remember the Gulf War? Remember that state of the art footage of bombs doing that whole aiming for the exhaust pipe trick? Do you know how many misses there were for a hit like that? The whole plan of "Shock and Awe" does not fill me with confidence that accuracy is foremost in the minds of the people in charge.

There's also the question of "Do the people in the air know what they are dropping bombs on?" Even if they hit their target, did military intelligence give them a military target to hit? The ability of our intelligence to lead UN inspectors to WMD is not exactly raising my hopes here either.

 

[Susan]

Good post Ajnin.

 

[cenimo]

nothing really so new, if you look up Artillery in Guiness Book of World Records, you will find a story about a German Artillery piece that had a crew of 1500 (normal for present day is 6 or 7 or so)...

The powder charge was over a ton of cordite...

the weapon was fired three times...the first time it was fired, firing it changed the bore of the tube....

as OneLargeToe said, it's a psychological ploy...

even back in the 60's on the DMZ in Korea, the North Koreans had 280 mm mortars

the largest artillery piece the Us uses is an 8" Howtizer (203mm)

the 280 is a mortar, think about that....

&nbsp;

&nbsp;

 

[Dewjunkie]

Ajnin, I spent my 5 years in the Navy as an Operations Specialist, so yes, I am fully aware of the hit/miss ratio of Tomahawk and other airborne missile systems. I am also aware that in the heat of battle they go with the absolute best info they have, and that info is double checked and confirmed. It's not a matter of someone saying "shoot here" and 2 seconds later someone pushing the release switch (Unless, of course, that 2 seconds is all one has, then it's a whole new ballgame). Movies are misleading.

Trust me, the hit/miss ratio and civilian casualty rate is still better than 5 inchers lobbing shells relying on "clicks" or B-52 dropping by the ton in the "general area".

 

[ern]

I believe there were about 1000 Iraqi civilian casulties during the Gulf War.

 

[nephilimiyr]

ern I thought that number would be&nbsp;a little higher than that?

The number of civilian causalities in a war doesn't have anything to do with weather a war is just or not. Either America has a good reason to make&nbsp;war with Iraq or it doesn't. If this war will prevent thousands of American civilians from being killed then I say we should make war. Again, I am still at this time unable to say this is the case now but for the sake of arguement if this was the case, then I say this war will justify the means.

Ajnin

There's also the question of "Do the people in the air know what they are dropping bombs on?" Even if they hit their target, did military intelligence give them a military target to hit? The ability of our intelligence to lead UN inspectors to WMD is not exactly raising my hopes here either.

I understand why people will doubt weather the pilots are given&nbsp; all the information on their targets. The American military has used the bombing of civilians as a way to force the enemy to apease in the past. However in this case I don't see any reason why they would use such a tactic in Iraq. The only way such a war tactic can be sucessful is if the leader of that country actually cares about his people but Saddam doesn't give a hoot about his people, he could care less about them. Saddam is probably hopeing that America does take the route of bombing civilians so he can use that as propaganda against us. I see your fears about this as unfounded in reality.

The reason I say the UN inspectors will never find WMD in Iraq is because their job isn't to search them out and find them. Their job is to follow Iraq in showing them that they have disarmed. That's quite a different thing. It would be nice if the inspectors would&nbsp;listen to our intelligence but again that's not their job. Thanks to several of the European nations who helped write the resolution the UN inspectors hands are tied.

 

[Jutsuka]

"Thanks to several of the European nations who helped write the resolution the UN inspectors hands are tied."

And you don't think the US supplied the rope and showed them wich knots to tie?

 

[nephilimiyr]

Jutsuka

"Thanks to several of the European nations who helped write the resolution the UN inspectors hands are tied."

And you don't think the US supplied the rope and showed them wich knots to tie?

I'm more than sure Bush and his administration tried to but look at France now. Do they look like a country that feels pushed around by us Americans? No! The resolution was writen up to apease the Europeans who don't want this war to happen. Remenber one thing, Bush was willing to go into Iraq last summer!

 

[Jutsuka]

What I meant was that the US was more than willing to tie the UN inspectors hands to make certain that there would be a loophole so that the US could go to war against Iraq. Bush doesn't want Iraq disarmed, he wants a war.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Jutsuka

What I meant was that the US was more than willing to tie the UN inspectors hands to make certain that there would be a loophole so that the US could go to war against Iraq. Bush doesn't want Iraq disarmed, he wants a war.

Ah, could this be the old 'Bush is mad at Saddam for wanting to kill his dad' line? Or does this come from the belief that America needs Iraqi oil so Bush wants to take it? I don't see it as Bush doesn't want Iraq to disarm but that he knows very well that he wont. And I believe he's right about that.

If I am going to be for this war, I need evidence to show me that 1-Saddam has these WMD and most importantly 2-either he will use them against us or he will sell them&nbsp;to the people who will. I am not convinced that he will use them against us but I think it possible he will sell them away. BUT I have yet to see evidence for this.

The UN resolution was writen up mainly by France and Germany with several other European countries. The US didn't show any weight in forceing their views on what it should say. My point above was that even if the US wanted to tie the hands of the inspectors the authors of the resolution, France and Germany, would not have listened any way.