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% that accept evolution per state

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createdtoworship

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So now we're going with "they're human foot prints before man micro evolved a change in foot size"...... :doh: And of course your only piece of evidence for this microevolution to explain the so-called footprints are still human is.... the so-called footprints themselves yes?



What now? What are you basing this "probably did more lifting and heavy labor" idea on? And how are you saying such a thing when comparing it to people that literally live the same lifestyle as ancient humans?



This just isn't even worth replying to. Everything you state in it is nothing but groundless assumptions about "ancient man" that sounds like you're basing them on hollywood caveman movies. But do tell me, how does "its not actually a human print, its either a different animal or more likely a carving... just like the other carvings nearby" rule out microevolution?



We don't need to identify what Animal it came from. The position is not "Its either a specific other animal, OR IT MUST BE HUMAN!!!!!111!!!!". It doesn't work that way. No one has to identify it as being some other animal, assuming its even a print. The question of "Is it a human foot print?" is answered rather simply with "No, it does not fit into the anatomical proportions of human feet." This is furthered by that when we do find ancient human footprints... they actually look like they were made by humans and fit within human proportions, like so Ancient Human Footprints Uncovered in Australia

Also ^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^^_^ at the idea that you are correct. You are so hilariously wrong that I'm not sure why I'm writing any kind of reply. Though you managed to actually up the absurdity factor from what I was expecting to get.

well I will stick to what the geologists are stating. I see your only argument is "you are wrong". so I think I retire from this discussion unless someone elslse would like to try to disprove my evidences.
 
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createdtoworship

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I have done extensive postings about the findings of a professor of geology at berea and his find of several human footprints that date much older than any human evolutionary human. I will post the original post in the next section:
There are a lot of generic websites of pictures of drawings and not pictures found at the source (berea college and museams). Please don't waste time with these as they are simply sketches and not the documentation of evidence.

Sources on this page from Michael cremo and a blog entitled: Radaractive: Human footprints from 250 million years ago? Ian Juby follows up on a mystery from the 1930's, and another Delk situation is discerned.

Genetic studies show that primates diverged from other mammals about 85 million years ago in the Late Cretaceous period, and the earliest fossils appear in the Paleocene, around 55 million years ago.- wikipedia
why is it that there is evidence of 300 million year old footprints (10 times older than expected). Seems to contradict K-AR dating.

Below from Michael Cremo:
“ 6.3.2 Human Footprints from the carboniferous

Our final examples of anomalous pre-Tertiary evidence are not in the category of fossil human bones, but rather in the category of fossil humanlike footprints. Professor W. G. Burroughs, head of the department of geology at Berea College in Berea, Kentucky, reported (1938, p. 46): “during the beginning of the Upper Carboniferous (Coal Age) Period, creatures that walked on their two hind legs and had human-like feet, left tracks on a sand beach in Rockcastle County, Kentucky. This was the period known as the Age of Amphibians when animals moved about on four legs or more rarely hopped, and their feet did not have a human appearance. But in Rockcastle, Jackson and several other counties in Kentucky, as well as in places from Pennsylvania to Missouri inclusive, creatures that had feet strangely human in appearance and that walked on two hind legs did exist. The writer has proved the existence of these creatures in Kentucky. With the cooperation of Dr. C. W. Gilmore, Curator of Vertebrate Paleontology, Smithsonian Institution, it has been shown that similar creatures lived in Pennsylvania and Missouri.”
The Upper Carboniferous (the Pennsylvanian) began about 320 million years ago (Harland et al. 1982, p. 94). It is thought that the first animals capable of walking erect, the pseudosuchian thecodonts, appeared around 210 million years ago (Desmond 1976, p. 86). These lizardlike creatures, capable of running on their hind legs, would not have left any tail marks since they carried their tails aloft. But their feet did not look at all like those of human beings; rather they resembled those of birds. Scientists say the first appearance of apelike beings was not until around 37 million years ago, and it was not until around 4 million years ago that most scientists would expect to find footprints anything like those reported by Burroughs from the Carboniferous of Kentucky.
Burroughs (1938, p. 46) stated: “The footprints are sunk into the horizontal surface of an outcrop of hard, massive grey sandstone on the O. Finnell farm. There are three pairs of tracks showing left and right footprints. . . . Each footprint has five toes and a distinct arch. The toes are spread apart like those of a human being who has never worn shoes.” Kent Previette (1953) wrote: “Scientists and travelers who have seen the tracks which he [Burroughs] proved to be genuine, or studied photographs of them, state that they resemble those of the most primitive people of the Andes, the aboriginal Chinese, and the South Sea islanders—all being people who have never worn shoes.”
Giving more details about the prints, Burroughs (1938, p. 46) stated: “The length of the foot from the heel to the end of the longest toe is nine and one-half inches though this length varies slightly in different tracks. The width across the ball of the foot is 4.1 inches while the width including the spread of the toes is about six inches. The foot curves back like a human foot to a human appearing heel.” These humanlike tracks are thus quite distinct, unlike the more famous but indistinct Paluxy “man tracks” reported in Biblical creationist literature.
David L. Bushnell, an ethnologist with the Smithsonian Institution suggested the prints were carved by Indians (Science News Letter 1938a, p. 372). In ruling out this hypothesis, Dr. Burroughs (1938, pp. 46–47) used a microscope to study the prints and noted: “The sand grains within the tracks are closer together than the sand grains of the rock just outside the tracks due to the pressure of the creatures’ feet. Even the sand grains in the arch of one of the best preserved tracks are not as close together as in the heel of the same track, though closer together than the sand outside the track. This is because there was more pressure upon the heel than beneath the arch of the foot. In comparing the texture of sandstone only the same kind of grains and combinations of grains within and outside of the tracks are considered. The sandstone adjacent to many of the tracks is uprolled due to the damp, loose sand having been pushed up around the foot as the foot sank into the sand. The forward part of one track is covered by solid Pottsville sandstone only a few days or weeks younger than the sandstone in which is the track. Another track nearby is also partially covered by solid Pottsville sandstone of the Coal Age.” These facts led Burroughs to conclude that the humanlike footprints were formed by compression in the soft, wet sand before it consolidated into rock some 300 million years ago.”
-Michael Cremo


an online blog, provides pictures and quotes of Geologist:

***************************************************************************
below is from an online blog that tracked down photos and quotes, blog is from link:
Radaractive: Human footprints from 250 million years ago? Ian Juby follows up on a mystery from the 1930's, and another Delk situation is discerned.


3) Special report #1: The strange fossil footprints of Berea, Kentucky
Several years back, with the help of friends in high places, I had managed to track down (pun intended) an article from 1940 documenting the Berea, Kentucky fossil human footprints inCarboniferous rocks. Allegedly 250 million years old, fossil footprints in such rock are a huge problem for evolutionists who claim that humans had not evolved until the last 500,000 years or so, and our allegedly ancient hominid ancestors some 5 million years ago.
These footprints had been cited by creationists for years, and fossil human footprints being one of my specialties, I of course wanted to follow up on it. The article was in Scientific American, January issue. It contained four photos of which I took one quick glance, and with disappointment said “Nope, those are carvings, not genuine fossil footprints.”
In fact, it was this very article from which many of you will have undoubtedly heard the quote by author Albert Ingalls, saying:
“If man, or even his ape ancestor, or even that ape ancestor’s early mammalian ancestor, existed as far back as in the Carboniferous Period in any shape, then the whole science of geology is so wrong that all the geologists will resign their jobs and take up truck driving.

Hence, for the present at least, science rejects the attractive explanation that man made these mysterious prints in the mud of the Carboniferous Period with his feet.”
Apparently I was not the only one to reject the Berea tracks as carvings, based on the photos provided in SciAm. The story that unfolded over the next year surprised me. A gentleman I had met via the internet, David Willis, had wanted to go to Berea to investigate these tracks. David turned out to be an incredible sleuth, finding out all kinds of details about the tracks and the archives at the college in Berea, as well as another alleged fossil human footprint in Tennessee which I had only seen on television.
I was in Ohio in 2009, and had a couple of days to spare before heading back to Canada. David’s schedule also permitted him time, so we set out to Berea.
Professor Burroughs was the gentleman who originally studied the Berea tracks. A geologist who founded the geology departmentand taught at Berea college, there is now a small museum named after him in the college. I would dare say that little museum is well worth the visit. About the Department - W. G. Burroughs Geology Museum

Burroughs began his study of the tracks in 1930. These footprints were so remarkably human, that upon suggestion and discussion with Dr. Frank Thone (Science Service, an organization for the popularization of science associated with the Smithsonian) he gave the tracks the latin name “Phenanthropus mirabilis,” which means“looks human; remarkable.”

thieves have subsequently removed the prints and cut them out of the rock, but the original pictures are genuine: All one needed to do was date the rock of the bed where they exist, apparently that has been done, and critics simply dismiss the tracks because the rock dates are accurate. But here is the pictures:

bereasiteoriginal.jpg


berea1.jpg


berea2.jpg
 
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createdtoworship

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Perhaps God does intervene in modern affairs after all.

well lets give other posters a try at it. You seem to be bent on not taking the word of geology. And provide no alternatives, it looks like you simply want to prove it wrong by any means necessary at the risk of forsaking logic itself.

good luck and thanks for the discussion, I won't be answering anymore of your posts regarding the berea prints.
 
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Aureus

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: yawns :

As it turns out, Ingalls himself does not believe they are real human footprints. Rather he presents two alternatives, which he calls scientific Theory No. 1 and No. 2: either they are carvings, as most scientists believe, or the prints of unknown Carboniferous animals. Ingalls notes that although among the scientists holding to the carving conclusion is ethnologist David I. Bushnell of the Smithsonian Institution, who "examined a number of them." Ingalls continues:


"He [Bushnell] states that every one of them is unquestionably
a carving made by the Indians. As they are always found near
water, he suggests that the human foot was a symbol which some
ancient Indian people associated with a watering place."

Ingalls explains that the second scientific theory is that the prints were made in soft mud during Carboniferous times "not by man, but by some extinct and as yet unknown animal." Ingalls notes that Carboniferous rocks are already known to contain a variety animals, including large amphibian tracks, whose prints "vaguely" resemble human footprints, in that they had five toes and a heel. He mentions that those supporting the idea that the prints in question are ancient animal tracks include geologist W. G. Burroughs, professor at Berea College in Kentucky, and paleontologist Charles Gilmore of the United States Museum, although Ingalls cites no comments or writings on the matter from either individual."

Alleged Carboniferous Human Footprints in Kentucky

Scientists have felt these are most likely carvings since 1940, at a minimum. It is only the modern creationists that want them to be human foot prints. Apparently even Burroughs himself would only say that they were "humanoid" and "made by ancient animals"

well lets give other posters a try at it. You seem to be bent on not taking the word of geology. And provide no alternatives, it looks like you simply want to prove it wrong by any means necessary at the risk of forsaking logic itself.

good luck and thanks for the discussion, I won't be answering anymore of your posts regarding the berea prints.

You're hellbent on taking the word of a creationist spin blog over the person that actually found the things.
 
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createdtoworship

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some allegations against generic sites are answered here:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7831892-3/#post66014841

Also many state these are carvings, however they were partially covered when found and here is a picture of the partial excavation of a partially covered heel that would be very hard to carve underneath other rock layers like it is:

heal.jpg


(Berea College archives Berea College)

more from the site:

" such proofs being the uproll of the sandstone adjacent to each track where the sand was pushed upward by the pressure of the creature's foot, the closer texture of the sand within than outside the tracks due to pressure of the feet, the fact that two tracks are distinctly seen to pass beneath solid Pottsville sandstone in situ.
Yours very truly, signed, W.G. Burroughs, M.R. Burroughs, G. Pruitte Sentt(?), Mark H. Clark, W. A. Finnell.
June 28, 1939"
 
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MikeCarra

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this coming from a non geologist, and taking his word over other professors of geology is not very scientific, folks.

I'm a geologist. I found Aureus' illustration to be a nice summary.

I know geology and I know Kentucky geology somewhat (having done one of my geology degrees in that state).

Now, as to whether I'm willing to throw everything I learned in 11 years of getting my BS, MS and PhD in geology out the window because of something that sorta kinda looks like a photograph of something that might sorta kinda be a human-like footprint when there are other potential explanations that don't require me to destroy all of geology, well I think you know which way I'm going to go.

...speaking as a geologist.

He has nothing but "his word for it". And now he is not sure if it is a "foot print at all." I guess this discussion is over. Unless He can post something of a citation, a fact, or a geologist.

Other scientists have been referenced for you.
 
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Strathos

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The old "human footprints with dinosaurs" canard? Really?

It's pure pareidolia. Not to mention using this "evidence" to support recent dinosaurs is just one form of quackery, it's also been used to support:

- Humans existing millions of years ago
- Alien visitors (who just happened to have feet just like humans)
- Time travelers (really)

Garbage in, garbage out
 
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createdtoworship

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I'm a geologist. I found Aureus' illustration to be a nice summary.

I know geology and I know Kentucky geology somewhat (having done one of my geology degrees in that state).

Now, as to whether I'm willing to throw everything I learned in 11 years of getting my BS, MS and PhD in geology out the window because of something that sorta kinda looks like a photograph of something that might sorta kinda be a human-like footprint when there are other potential explanations that don't require me to destroy all of geology, well I think you know which way I'm going to go.

...speaking as a geologist.



Other scientists have been referenced for you.

funny you and aureas had different conclusions, you believing they were carvings, disproved by lack of tool markings, and his believing they were animal tracks, again disproved by lack of comparable analysis (no hard data). Also with my recent comments about microevolution disproving his dimension problem with the feet, there really is nothing to talk about. But again, you have to quote geologists that actually were there. What good is a geologist who only looks at a picture, or hand drawing? thanks for the comment.
 
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createdtoworship

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The old "human footprints with dinosaurs" canard? Really?

It's pure pareidolia. Not to mention using this "evidence" to support recent dinosaurs is just one form of quackery, it's also been used to support:

- Humans existing millions of years ago
- Alien visitors (who just happened to have feet just like humans)
- Time travelers (really)

Garbage in, garbage out

no this was a find of human footprints, (no dinasaurs at all). And these prints are significantly older than any human footprints, placing the evolution of man at a significantly earlier date and throwing off most of the numbers of evolutionary history. Look at the documentation (with the pictures on it) at the bottom of the page.
 
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createdtoworship

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I honestly think too much time is wasted on this subject. The people who see this as some conspiracy to make baby Jesus cry are likely not going to be persuaded by invocation to facts on something they clearly are approaching with emotionality and ardent bias.

well RE: "emotionality" and emotionally charged debates....

Richard Dawkins was justified in his remark that "Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist."

“1999 Nature magazine published a letter from Scott Todd, an immunologist at Kansas State University, who said, “even if all the data point to an intelligent designer, such an hypothesis is excluded from science because it is not naturalistic.”22- Scott Todd, letter to the editor, Nature 401/6752 (September 30, 1999): 423.”-

above quote from Norman Geisler in His book Creation and the courts.
 
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CabVet

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no this was a find of human footprints, (no dinasaurs at all). And these prints are significantly older than any human footprints, placing the evolution of man at a significantly earlier date and throwing off most of the numbers of evolutionary history. Look at the documentation (with the pictures on it) at the bottom of the page.

You are not going to stop derailing this thread, are you? Why don't you start a new thread about your footprint "theories"?
 
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createdtoworship

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I honestly think too much time is wasted on this subject. The people who see this as some conspiracy to make baby Jesus cry are likely not going to be persuaded by invocation to facts on something they clearly are approaching with emotionality and ardent bias.

what facts? Most "facts" are given by geologists who were never there, or in fact were invited to the site of the footprints, but never made the trip. (I wonder why). Emotions keep them from making it.?

SCI-AM magazine did an article on the carboniferous foot prints, intact with a photo of the wrong site!

"the photos that wound up in the SciAm article were of the “Indian carvings” found some 30 miles from the fossil human footprints, which Burroughs had also visited at one point and had determined were Indian carvings (petroglyphs) not tracks.
"
http://ianjuby.org/newsletter/?p=525#3
 
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MikeCarra

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what facts? Most "facts" are given by geologists who were never there, or in fact were invited to the site of the footprints, but never made the trip. (I wonder why). Emotions keep them from making it.?

SCI-AM magazine did an article on the carboniferous foot prints, intact with a photo of the wrong site!

"the photos that wound up in the SciAm article were of the “Indian carvings” found some 30 miles from the fossil human footprints, which Burroughs had also visited at one point and had determined were Indian carvings (petroglyphs) not tracks.
"
Ian's Creation Blog & Newsletters » Blog Archive » Feb 18, 2012 CrEvo News with Ian Juby and CORE Ottawa

If one looks at the picture on "Ian's Blog" that is actually from the Berea site it is again, a shocking type of human foot.

If the foot is about 9" long then the spacing between those toes is on the order of a couple inches! I can't get my little toe to go that far from the next toe over, and I can't get all my toes to EVEN SPACE OUT LIKE THAT!

It's pretty impressive. Clearly a very "special" human.

The cast print further down the page does appear to have a ridge around it, but of course it doesn't have anything even remotely like an arch and again the orientation of the toes with respect to each other and the foot itself (note there is also no discernible BALL of the foot below the toes) looks like it might have been a Homo cartoonus. Kind of like this paleontological illustration:

150px-Fredflintstone.jpg

FIgure 1. Homo cartoonus. Note the lack of "arch" and the muted "ball" of the foot.

As for the other picture of the "heel", well, after my years in geology of looking at rocks and see how they OFTEN fracture and break into various shapes I'd have to say that clearly that can ONLY be explained by a heel. Or maybe just the way the rock weathered.

But since the latter hypothesis doesn't require me to destroy all knowledge of geology and paleontology I'll assume it is in error.
 
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Aureus

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funny you and aureas had different conclusions, you believing they were carvings, disproved by lack of tool markings, and his believing they were animal tracks,

This never actually happened. I'm on the "They're most likely carvings" side.

Also with my recent comments about microevolution disproving his dimension problem with the feet, there really is nothing to talk about.

I think you mean your recent wild, unfounded and nonsensical conjecturing that does nothing but show you are willing to say anything to making something fit.
 
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