Thank God for Evolution!

[Katmando]

I know this wasn't really directed at me ... but

What's 'your' science? No one is trying to rebuke the bible, we liberal OEC's understand it differently.

The point is this: While some stories in the bible are used as lessons, some stories are not essential to christian faith. The creation story is one of them. We all agree that god did it, should how he did it really matter?

How does a "liberal OEC" Decipher what are stories and what is lessons?

Do you just pick and choose?

 

[Reillz]

Just the ones that are not fundamental to be a 'christian' and that contradict all evidence.

 

[Ark Guy]

How does a "liberal OEC" Decipher what are stories and what is lessons?

Do you just pick and choose?

You run it through the evolutionISM filter.
If it contradicts evolutionISM, then it's a myth.

 

[TheBear]

Don't stop the "ISM's" with evolotuon. I like the sound of relativityISM. Here's a good one...gravityISM. Here's a real tongue-twister....electronicsISM.

This would be good, fun family entertainment. Find as many scientific theories as you can, add the "ISM" to the end of the theory, and say the word as fast as you can 3 or 4 times. It will be one laughter filled evening with the family.

 

[Reillz]

CreationISM

 

[Katmando]

Just the ones that are not fundamental to be a 'christian' and that contradict all evidence.

If that is truly the case and not just your our outlook. There is some people truly missing an awsome relationship with God. There is not much fundamentals to be a Christian. God has made it real easy. The majority of the Bible helps one to get close to God. Although I do not believe the bible is necasary it has help me with my walk with God.

But that does clear some things up for me.

.


<><

 

[TheBear]

If that is truly the case and not just your our outlook. There is some people truly missing an awsome relationship with God. There is not much fundamentals to be a Christian. God has made it real easy. The majority of the Bible helps one to get close to God. Although I do not believe the bible is necasary it has help me with my walk with God.


But that does clear some things up for me.


.



<><

I agree.


The Bible tells me there is a God, that God created everything. The Bible tells me that Christ, the Word, was in the beginning with God and was God, and though Christ, all things were created. The Bible also tells me that I am eternally separated from God, and that my only reconciliation to God, is through Christ. The Bible is also a spiritual and moral guide for me, showing what things will bring me closer to God in this life, and what things will stunt my spiritual growth.


There are also, all manner of history, metaphors and parables in the Bible. The repeating theme throughout the Bible, from Genesis to Revelations, is that there is a God who created everything. That man in his natural state is separated from God. That God has shown His love for us through the sacrifice of Christ Jesus, Who is the only reconciliation to God. There are also moral and spiritual lessons throughout scripture.


I believe God could have created everything instantaneously - in less than a nanosecond. But, He didn't. I think we're all in agreement here. And I think we're all in agreement that there was an designed sequence of events in the process of His creation. Has anyone here ever asked yourselves why the creation story in Genesis spells out a process over time? Does anyone here, even remotely, see the parallels between the Theory of Evolution, and God creating Adam from the dust? Has anyone here asked yourselves why God didn't just instantaneously create Adam, separate and apart from His other creations - instead of using existing 'materials'? Does the fact that it is written that Adam came from the ground, spark any of these questions?


God could have created everything including man, instantaneously, if He wanted to. But, He didn't. God could have created mankind separate and apart from the rest of His creation. But, He didn't.


The Bible is no science text book. It does not explain the mechanisms and the specific how's of His works. It was never meant to be.


The Bible, first and foremost, validates God's existence, His works, His love for us, our own sinful condition, and the good news of the gift of salvation through Christ Jesus. Secondarily, the Bible is a moral and spiritual roadmap for us - teaching us how to live our lives, how to treat others, etc.


Whether God created everything in 6 seconds, 6 minutes, 6 hours, 6 days, or 12 billion years, shows that there was a process that took time. And so far, all evidence points to an evolutionary process. Does the idea that God created life through an evolutionary process somehow diminish God's awsome power? To some, the deep down answer is 'yes'. And to those who think this way, let me ask you this. Does the fact that God took any time at all in His creation process, diminish His power? After all, I believe He could have created everything instantly. But, He didn't.

 

[TheBear]

*** ADMIN HAT ON ***


Can we please discuss these topics with a modicum of dignity and respect? Hurling insults at each other is not only against our rules, it is very unChristlike. We are not here to bash each other over the heads with our own views and beliefs. Nor are we here to belittle those who don't agree with our views. We are all here as equals, sitting at the round table of discussion. Here, each views and beliefs are just as valid and equal as the others'. Here, we should be able to learn from each other, as brothers and sisters in Christ, to edify others, and be edified by others. If anyone here wants to belittle others, hurl insults, or use this fora as a bully-pulpit or lectern, you are on the wrong website.

So please, let's discuss our differences with an honest attitude to be helpful to others, a willingness to learn from others, and the love of Christ towards each other.


*** ADMIN HAT OFF ***

 

[Vance]

I am confirmed Theistic Gravitationalist.

Even though it is just a theory and can never be proven, and even though it happens without God intervening, I believe it is a God-established phenomemon.

I think God created a LOT of processes in this universe which then operate on their own unless He chooses to intervene in a supernatural way. He created gravity, He can overide it and make a person float if He wanted to. He can make a person rise from the dead and allow for a virgin birth. These do not invalidate the natural processes they overrode.

Evolution is simply another process of nature God set in motion and He lets it take it course. The extent to which He predetermined that course, I have no idea.

I think the Genesis story is God's holy word to us about the Truths of His creation. This does not mean it is to be read literally, but the truths included in those passages are very real and essential for understanding God and the rest of His salvation Message. This is true whether those truths are told to us allegorically or literally.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

The bible is neither historically nor scientifically accurate.

That does not make it wrong. That does not make it a lie. It does not disprove the existance of God or the salvation offered by Jesus.

I think that if a person insists on the bible being absolutely accurate in every account - or else!, then they are setting themselves up for a big fall. Why put your faith in a book?

To me the bible is full of fables and myths and borrowed history. Big deal. That does not diminish its importance to our Christian heritiage.

 

[Christiangamer]

This is a very good discussion. I like It. I too am a christian evolutionist. Sure, I have even questioned the possibilities of christs ressurection. But can It be proven wrong? Not really. Some may try, but they can't validate it. Besides, I dont want to give up my religion. It gives me something to look forward too, and gives me so much now. I'm not gonna let the bible control my life. I'll go to church, listen to the lessons, treat others with respect and love, keep my faith in God that he'll make things better. Thank you all, God bless.

 

[Buck72]

Evolution. Isn't amazing? Isn't it inspiring?

Imagine a force of nature so powerful that it can take slime and turn it into the astounding variety of life that has existed on Earth over the last 3.8 billion years? What diversity, what beauty. How incredable this phenomenon is, that it - a mindless force - can create mind and allow the universe to examine itself and question the meaning of it's own existance.

Far from making me question the existance of God. This evolution thing makes me in awe of Him.

Imagine a Force so powerful that could create the heavens and the earth in only six days, and be capable to communicate a message from the eternal dimension through the mouths of men (whom He also created), and preserve that same message throughout history, wars, debate, theological counsels, divisions, etc, so that in the end, we have the very TRUTH of God in written form that tells us Who He is, what He expects of us, and how we are to relate with Him....oh, and it tells us the fact that the Creation took six days.

He is not mindless, and evolution makes Him out to be mindless, indecisive and purposeless. The God if the Bible is inerrant, impassable, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, and capable of a six-day creation and an inspired word to relate that creation to the point of creatining a seven-day week in memorium of that same creation - even to the extent of writing the fact with His own finger : (see Exodus 20:11).

The God of the Bible, the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob; the I AM, the Alpha and Omega, the Word that became flesh...this God is the only God. There is none but Him and He did not take billions of years to create the same heavens and earth He described, in great detail, merely taking six days!

Glory to the God of the Bible! Can I get an Amen?

 

[Buck72]

This is a very good discussion. I like It. I too am a christian evolutionist. Sure, I have even questioned the possibilities of christs ressurection. But can It be proven wrong? Not really. Some may try, but they can't validate it. Besides, I dont want to give up my religion. It gives me something to look forward too, and gives me so much now. I'm not gonna let the bible control my life. I'll go to church, listen to the lessons, treat others with respect and love, keep my faith in God that he'll make things better. Thank you all, God bless.

Brother, the Bible is the foundation of the faith...it IS the faith. Without the WORD OF GOD we are rudderless and suceptible to every wind of doctrine! If all we have to do is love each other to find Salvation, then Christ died needlessly.

Also, Christianity is not a "religion" - it is a "relationship". Christ is not impressed with religion, that is why He tells those (obviously religious) people is Matt 7:21-23 to "depart from Me"

(Mat 7:21) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

(Mat 7:22) "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

(Mat 7:23) "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

How do we KNOW Him, but for His word? His word tells us Who He is! Remember that Satan deceived Eve because she did not know the word of God, He could not deceive Christ because He DID know the Word of God and used the same Word to defeat Him!!

If we say we believe, and do not hold fast to the word, then we do not believe.

1Jo 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

1Jo 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1Jo 2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:

1Jo 2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Please brothers...all of you, I beg you to pray about this. The word IS the faith, let there be nothing else to distract you from this truth.

1Th 2:13 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

 

[Buck72]

Most YEC's have this grade 1 method of arguing. Please get a brain. I don't think how god created man or what mechanISM (haha) was used should be a core fundamental to christian faith. As well, I don't think god is going to point and laugh, for not knowing how he did it- we weren't supposed to know. And I don't think anyone is claiming they are right, just that the 6 day creation is impossible.

Okay, now we have a comparable analysis for discussion:

1. The "YEC" (ie: Bible Believer) - holds to FAITH: Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

2. The TE crowd (ie: "Liberal" subjective relativism) - holds to: "I think".

The problem with these two arguments is the different rules by which they contend right vs. wrong. The Bible-Believers believe God is right, the Word of God is right and that our faith is to agree and believe ourselves. The Theo-Evos believe "science" is the only answer therefore the Bible MUST be incorrect. Hence Reillz quote of: "IMPOSSIBLE" regarding the six-day creation.

Mat 19:26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Maybe you should rephrase: "I do not believe" regarding the six-day Creation event.

Let's check out this whole faith thing fellas:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Also Romans tells us where faith comes from:

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Time for a revisit to the first grade reasoning huh?

1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

Buck, when will you give up misrepresenting your brothers in Christ?

Okay, now we have a comparable analysis for discussion:

1. The "YEC" (ie: Bible Believer)

Hold it right there. I believe the Bible. I am not a YEC. You defame me. Again.

- holds to FAITH: Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible.

Quite correct. Science tells us how the universe was created. Faith tells us it was the work of God.

2. The TE crowd (ie: "Liberal" subjective relativism) - holds to: "I think".

The problem with these two arguments is the different rules by which they contend right vs. wrong. The Bible-Believers believe God is right, the Word of God is right and that our faith is to agree and believe ourselves.

And many of us believe the same. We differ on what the Bible is actually teaching, not on whether it is correct.

The Theo-Evos believe "science" is the only answer therefore the Bible MUST be incorrect.

Complete and utter misrepresentation. Nowhere do I say the bible is incorrect. It is not scientifically accurate, but it does not intend or attempt to be. The truths it is teaching are not scientific ones.

Hence Reillz quote of: "IMPOSSIBLE" regarding the six-day creation.

Mat 19:26 And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

You misunderstand. Six day creation is perfectly possible, but the evidence of the creation itself is that it did not occur. If it did, God is deceptive. He planted fake evidence.

Maybe you should rephrase: "I do not believe" regarding the six-day Creation event.

Let's check out this whole faith thing fellas:

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Heb 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Also Romans tells us where faith comes from:

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Translation: "I don't care what you say, TheBear, I'm going to carry on attacking the faith of the other posters here."

Time for a revisit to the first grade reasoning huh?

"and their intellligence"

1Co 1:19

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

1Co 1:20 Where [is] the wise? where [is] the scribe? where [is] the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

1Co 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

If these verses refer to science, then it is all pointless, not just origins. Is that what you are saying? Quantum mechanics - human folly? Structural engineering - human folly? That would be a consistent approach.

 

[Late_Cretaceous]

I never said God was mindless, just that the phenomenon of evolution is.

I don't really care HOW or WHEN the universe was created. The current evidence shows that the universe is very old, and that life on earth has undergone evolution over a very long history. I happen to find it facinating, but if it turned out to be all wrong I would not jump off a cliff or anything. Because in the end it really does not matter. The universe could have began the second I was born - that really does not affect my day to day life.

That said, however. Since we live in a society that relies heavily on technology and science I think it is important to be aware of scientific knowledge.

Should we be skeptical of what science teaches us? Absolutely.

Should we blindly accept anything that science teaches? No way.

Should we dismiss scientific knowledge simply because it conflictw with our world view or makes us feel uncomfortable? Certainly not.

 

[Buck72]

Buck, when will you give up misrepresenting your brothers in Christ?...You defame me. Again.

I'm making no efforts to "defame" you Karl, nor am I pointing any fingers at Karl here...only the generalization that says: "No six days, no flood" and equates literal interpretation with stupidity.

Please do not take offense unless I quote you directly and am wrong in my rebuttal.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

I'm making no efforts to "defame" you Karl, nor am I pointing any fingers at Karl here...only the generalization that says: "No six days, no flood" and equates literal interpretation with stupidity.

Please do not take offense unless I quote you directly and am wrong in my rebuttal.

Clear inference. YECs are the bible believers, according to you. Therefore, by inference, non YECs are not bible believers. It's fairly obvious to me.

I do not equate literal interpretation with stupidity. I cannot get my head round why anyone would insist on it. But in itself I have no problem with it. I do have a problem with the view that equates a literal interpretation with "believing the Bible" and a non-literal interpretation with unbelief.

 

[=Joel=]

BINGO

Funny how these Theo-Evos can deny the creation as written in the book of Genesis...claims that it was scientifically impossible...YET...turn right around and believe that a dead guy has the ability to rise up and walk around on day # 3...despite the scientific fact that it too is scientifically impossible.

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

BINGO

Joel - you're new to this forum IIRC, so you can be excused, but Ark Guy keeps on raising this, although we've explained it a dozen times.

Here for example: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1273548&postcount=13