Testing a Biblical Objection to Purgatory

[AlexB23]

Purgatory still exists.

It is final purification before entering heaven.

Pray for the dead- they need it.

It’s nothing to be scared of- it’s only painful because you aren’t fully united to God, yet.

I will pray for these people. I do feel united to God though, as I am a Christ follower and am baptized. Just a little new to the Catholic faith

 

[WarriorAngel]

Wow! That’s interesting WA. I have never heard of it being described that way in relation to purgatory. I hope more people comment on this as well.

Not to go too far off topic but what witchcraft does is “use the elements “ to derive power so it’s reasonable to assess that everything separate from the Lords Presence has the “reason “ for the fall.
Insert baptism.

I do a lot of prayers and there are some prayers for witchcraft and specifically for each element that is used.

 

[WarriorAngel]

That is sad. Hopefully purgatory ended when Jesus evacuated Abraham's Bosom between his death and resurrection. I am Catholic, but have a hard time believing in purgatory. Eventually, when I study the Bible more, I might understand it, but at my current Biblical knowledge, I do not understand it yet.

The references are nonspecific because the oral was understood which is why the scripture is not in any kind of format or like the Catechism which takes oral tradition and understanding to make it more clear.
As such the scripture is referenced.

 

[AlexB23]

The references are nonspecific because the oral was understood which is why the scripture is not in any kind of format or like the Catechism which takes oral tradition and understanding to make it more clear.
As such the scripture is referenced.

My parents gave me a Catechism. I might try that out.

 

[RileyG]

I will pray for these people. I do feel united to God though, as I am a Christ follower and am baptized. Just a little new to the Catholic faith

Keep learning!

It’s a lifelong journey!

You’re good!

 

[AlexB23]

Keep learning!

It’s a lifelong journey!

You’re good!

You are welcome. Christianity is a life long journey.

 

[Nagomirov]

Чистилище реально, и молитвы за умерших являются частью еврейской традиции и всех апостольских церквей (хотя Восточная Православная, Восточная Православная и Ассирийская Церковь Востока отвергают Чистилище).

Также рассмотрим 2 Маккавейская 12:43-46:

«И, собрав, послал в Иерусалим двенадцать тысяч драхм серебра для жертвоприношения за грехи умерших, хорошо и благоговейно размышляя о воскресении.

(Ибо, если бы он не надеялся, что убитые воскреснут, то молиться за умерших казалось бы излишним и тщетным.)

И потому, что он считал, что тем, кто усоп с благочестием, уготована великая благодать.

Поэтому молиться за умерших, чтобы они были освобождены от грехов, является святой и благой мыслью».

Благословения

1) Question to protestants about Faith Alone

2) Question to protestants about Faith Alone

3) Question to protestants about Faith Alone

 

[Nagomirov]

Paul also petitioned prayer for his faithful friend.
Paul Prayed for Onesiphorus, Who Was Deceased from earth. “May the Lord grant Onesiphorus to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.”

Odd thing to do, pray for him, if he was a good man and faithful and passed away if as Protestants allege, we should automatically go to Heaven. Yet Paul who wrote the scripture above aforementioned original post, regarding going through fire also speaks of prayer for his friend for THAT day.

I think Paul was wise enough to understand 'that day' is outside of time on earth. For his friend already passed.

There are many things eluding to purgatory.
The term itself was coined by the Church but though the Jews prayed for the dead, the best they understood was ghosts, still unknown what was a waiting soul.. and still ghosts exist today.

If anyone reads Wisdom 2 they would understand the Jews were clueless what the next life was about [insert scriptures - see we die and we are forgotten etc...] outside of which is David suggesting they shall soul sleep til the Savior.

In Judaism, the concept of the gehenome (genome) is very similar to purgatory.

 

[Nagomirov]

That is sad. Hopefully purgatory ended when Jesus evacuated Abraham's Bosom between his death and resurrection. I am Catholic, but have a hard time believing in purgatory. Eventually, when I study the Bible more, I might understand it, but at my current Biblical knowledge, I do not understand it yet.

The idea of purgatory stems from: 1) satisfaction, the need for believers to satisfy Divine Justice. The Bible testifies to us that God forgives sin, but punishes with a temporary punishment: David is forgiven the sin of adultery and murder, but his child dies as punishment; David is forgiven his other sin, but as punishment in his country the plague spreads for 3 days; Moses and Aaron are forgiven the sin of unbelief, but as punishment they cannot Enter the promised land; every Christian is forgiven original sin in baptism, but death and the hardships of life remain as a temporary punishment; 2) Nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of God; 3) the practice of prayers for the dead.

 

[St_Worm2]

Paul also petitioned prayer for his faithful friend. Paul Prayed for Onesiphorus, Who Was Deceased from earth. “May the Lord grant Onesiphorus to find mercy from the Lord on that Day.”

Hello WarriorAngel, I've never heard the argument that Onesiphorus died before the Apostle Paul wrote his final Epistle, and the Bible doesn't mention it (unless I missed it somehow?). So, how do we know that he died?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

 

[Nagomirov]

"I believe in purgatory," Lewis writes. He then rejects Catholic views on purgatory. Mark of Ephesus did not reject the idea of Purgatory, as the Orthodox think, but only one of the ways to purify souls through temporary fire.

 

[Nagomirov]

Cardinal Ratzinger "Eschatology" (pp. 230-231):

Purgatory is not some kind of overworld concentration camp, as Tertullian thought, where a person is forced to be punished in a more or less arbitrary way. Rather, it is an intrinsically necessary process of transformation, during which a person becomes capable of Christ, capable of God, and thus capable of unity with the entire community of saints. Just looking at people with any degree of realism at all means understanding the need for such a process. This does not replace grace with deeds, but allows the former to achieve his complete victory precisely as grace. What really saves is full agreement with faith. But for most of us, this basic option is buried under a lot of firewood, hay and straw. It is only with difficulty that this can look out from behind the lattice of selfishness, which we are powerless to destroy with our own hands. A person is a recipient of divine grace, but this does not exempt him from the need for transformation. Meeting with the Lord is this transformation. It is a fire that burns our slag and turns us into vessels of eternal joy.

 

[Nagomirov]

C. S. Lewis wrote: "Don't our souls require purgatory? Won't our hearts break if God tells us: “Indeed, child, your breath smells and your clothes are dirty. But we are merciful here, and no one will reproach you for this, no one will recoil from you. Enter into our joy.” Won't we answer: “Thank you, sir, but can I clean up first?“— "It's going to hurt you.” — "It doesn't matter, sir"" (Letters to Malcolm). This fragment from Lewis's letter is cited by the Catholic priest Ray Roland, but he cites it as proof that the soul itself desires purification, having seen its imperfection in relation to God's greatness. And before quoting Lewis, he refers to the Catholic Saint Catherine of Genoa, who raises just this topic, that souls themselves desire purification.

 

[AlexB23]

The idea of purgatory stems from: 1) satisfaction, the need for believers to satisfy Divine Justice. The Bible testifies to us that God forgives sin, but punishes with a temporary punishment: David is forgiven the sin of adultery and murder, but his child dies as punishment; David is forgiven his other sin, but as punishment in his country the plague spreads for 3 days; Moses and Aaron are forgiven the sin of unbelief, but as punishment they cannot Enter the promised land; every Christian is forgiven original sin in baptism, but death and the hardships of life remain as a temporary punishment; 2) Nothing unclean will enter the Kingdom of God; 3) the practice of prayers for the dead.

Interesting

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hello WarriorAngel, I've never heard the argument that Onesiphorus died before the Apostle Paul wrote his final Epistle, and the Bible doesn't mention it (unless I missed it somehow?). So, how do we know that he died?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

Timothy 2

16 The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain [2 Timothy 1:16] 17 But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.



Translation of that era = his death.
Of the Lord in that day.

Asking mercy on his house - because NOW he is not alive to assist them.
This included the orphans and widow, and women folk.
Whom become the poorest in the culture of the era.

Women and children could not fend for themselves in those days.
Men did trade. Men went to the market.

Culture if known would self explain. That's the loss that Protestants don't have now.
1500 years of changing societies will bring in errors.

 

[St_Worm2]

Timothy 2
16 The Lord give mercy to the house of Onesiphorus: because he hath often refreshed me, and hath not been ashamed of my chain [2 Timothy 1:16] 17 But when he was come to Rome, he carefully sought me, and found me. 18 The Lord grant unto him to find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou very well knowest.

Translation of that era = his death.
Of the Lord in that day.

Hello again WarriorAngel, I agree that "in that day" could be understood as such in 2 Timothy 1:18, however, if true, I believe that this would be the only time in the Bible that it would be (the other times "that day" is used refer to things like the future Judgments (Great White Throne and Bema Seat, the second coming of the Lord, a day in the future, on this side of the grave, when a believer will face persecutions of various sorts, etc.).

The Apostle, in fact, uses the phrase when speaking about himself just a few verses prior (2 Timothy 1:12) and he is obviously alive when he does so (if you'd like, I can give you a list of all of Scriptural "that day" references so you can check them out for yourself ).

Asking mercy on his house - because NOW he is not alive to assist them.

This, as I just mentioned, could be the correct understanding.

However, I believe that the principal problem with that interpretation is this, 1. the fact that both church tradition and history speak of the martyrdom of St. Onesiphorus (along with others like St. Timothy) as something that happened under the rule of Emperor Domitian (the last member of the Flavian Dynasty to rule Rome, just FYI .. he reigned from 81-96 AD) and 2. that the Apostle Paul was beheaded by Nero in 67 AD.

Here's an article that you may find useful in regard to all of this.

​

St. Onesiphorus—An Obscure, Yet Worthy New Testament Saint​

Tradition tells that Onesiphorus was brutally martyred under the tyrannical reign of Emperor Domitian.​

​

Apollo, Cephas, Tychicus, Epaphroditus, Cæsar and Onesiphorus​

​

Theresa Doyle-Nelson Blogs September 6, 2018​

​

May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus. ―2 Timothy 1:16–18​

​

St. Onesiphorus’s name is found in only one book of the Bible ― the Second Letter to Timothy. It is believed that Paul wrote this letter while a prisoner in Rome and that Timothy received it in Ephesus, the same city where Onesiphorus (ON-eh-SIPH-er-us) and his family lived. Within this letter, Onesiphorus’s name is found twice. These references indicate a sense of past tense and offer greetings for the family of Onesiphorus rather than for Onesiphorus himself.​

​

These curiosities have led many biblical scholars to guess that perhaps this Ephesian saint was already deceased at the time Paul wrote his letter. Paul’s words found in 2 Timothy 1:18, “May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day,” are intriguing. If indeed Onesiphorus was deceased at the time of the writing, then this could possibly be considered one of the earliest prayers for the dead in Christendom.​

​

Onesiphorus was evidently someone dear to Paul’s heart. Paul’s words make it clear that Onesiphorus was encouraging in his efforts and fearless of Paul’s state of imprisonment. While many others anxiously ran away in apprehension, Onesiphorus remained a true friend through Christ. Paul also pointed out how Onesiphorus did much in Ephesus to support and fortify the early Church there. It is reasonable to assume that this somewhat hidden man’s efforts rippled far and wide in unknown ways to benefit Christianity.​

​

Tradition tells that Onesiphorus was brutally martyred under the tyrannical reign of Emperor Domitian. It is said that he was tied to a wild horse near the Hellespont (the strait of water separating Europe from Asia, now known as the Dardanelles) and then violently dragged to death. A comrade of his, Porphyrius, is believed to have been martyred at the same time. Onesiphorus is also mentioned in an apocryphal book known as Acts of Paul and Thecla.​

Interestingly, this article mentions both church tradition, as well the conjecture of some church scholars concerning the death of Onesiphorus, but, what church tradition tells us on the one hand, and what the conjecture of certain church scholars tells us on the other, cannot both be true in this case, because history & church tradition puts the martyrdom of the Apostle Paul as something that happened more than a decade before St. Onesiphorus' martyrdom.

There is also the fact that official church documents, like the CCC, that speak of prayers to/for the dead as a normal church practice, never mention Onesiphorus/2 Timothy 1:18 as Biblical proof in support of the practice.

God bless you!!

--David

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hello again WarriorAngel, I agree that "in that day" could be understood as such in 2 Timothy 1:18, however, if true, I believe that this would be the only time in the Bible that it would be (the other times "that day" is used refer to things like the future Judgments (Great White Throne and Bema Seat, the second coming of the Lord, a day in the future, on this side of the grave, when a believer will face persecutions of various sorts, etc.).

The Apostle, in fact, uses the phrase when speaking about himself just a few verses prior (2 Timothy 1:12) and he is obviously alive when he does so (if you'd like, I can give you a list of all of Scriptural "that day" references so you can check them out for yourself ).


This, as I just mentioned, could be the correct understanding.

However, I believe that the principal problem with that interpretation is this, 1. the fact that both church tradition and history speak of the martyrdom of St. Onesiphorus (along with others like St. Timothy) as something that happened under the rule of Emperor Domitian (the last member of the Flavian Dynasty to rule Rome, just FYI .. he reigned from 81-96 AD) and 2. that the Apostle Paul was beheaded by Nero in 67 AD.

Here's an article that you may find useful in regard to all of this.

View attachment 350996​

​

St. Onesiphorus—An Obscure, Yet Worthy New Testament Saint​

Tradition tells that Onesiphorus was brutally martyred under the tyrannical reign of Emperor Domitian.​

​

View attachment 350998​

Apollo, Cephas, Tychicus, Epaphroditus, Cæsar and Onesiphorus​

​

Theresa Doyle-Nelson Blogs September 6, 2018​

​

May the Lord grant mercy to the family of Onesiphorus because he often gave me new heart and was not ashamed of my chains. But when he came to Rome, he promptly searched for me and found me. May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day. And you know very well the services he rendered in Ephesus. ―2 Timothy 1:16–18​

​

St. Onesiphorus’s name is found in only one book of the Bible ― the Second Letter to Timothy. It is believed that Paul wrote this letter while a prisoner in Rome and that Timothy received it in Ephesus, the same city where Onesiphorus (ON-eh-SIPH-er-us) and his family lived. Within this letter, Onesiphorus’s name is found twice. These references indicate a sense of past tense and offer greetings for the family of Onesiphorus rather than for Onesiphorus himself.​

​

These curiosities have led many biblical scholars to guess that perhaps this Ephesian saint was already deceased at the time Paul wrote his letter. Paul’s words found in 2 Timothy 1:18, “May the Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord on that day,” are intriguing. If indeed Onesiphorus was deceased at the time of the writing, then this could possibly be considered one of the earliest prayers for the dead in Christendom.​

​

Onesiphorus was evidently someone dear to Paul’s heart. Paul’s words make it clear that Onesiphorus was encouraging in his efforts and fearless of Paul’s state of imprisonment. While many others anxiously ran away in apprehension, Onesiphorus remained a true friend through Christ. Paul also pointed out how Onesiphorus did much in Ephesus to support and fortify the early Church there. It is reasonable to assume that this somewhat hidden man’s efforts rippled far and wide in unknown ways to benefit Christianity.​

​

Tradition tells that Onesiphorus was brutally martyred under the tyrannical reign of Emperor Domitian. It is said that he was tied to a wild horse near the Hellespont (the strait of water separating Europe from Asia, now known as the Dardanelles) and then violently dragged to death. A comrade of his, Porphyrius, is believed to have been martyred at the same time. Onesiphorus is also mentioned in an apocryphal book known as Acts of Paul and Thecla.​

Interestingly, this article mentions both church tradition, as well the conjecture of some church scholars concerning the death of Onesiphorus, but, what church tradition tells us on the one hand, and what the conjecture of certain church scholars tells us on the other, cannot both be true in this case, because history & church tradition puts the martyrdom of the Apostle Paul as something that happened more than a decade before St. Onesiphorus' martyrdom.

There is also the fact that official church documents, like the CCC, that speak of prayers to/for the dead as a normal church practice, never mention Onesiphorus/2 Timothy 1:18 as Biblical proof in support of the practice.

God bless you!!

--David

Well you cannot debate in OBOB.

For do not suppose Paul the combatant, that irresistible and invincible one, but some one of the many, who, if he had not received much consolation and encouragement, would not perhaps have stood, would not have contended. So those who are out of the contest may perchance be the cause of victory to him, who is engaged in it, and may be partakers of the crowns reserved for the victor. And what wonder, if he who communicates to the living is thought worthy of the same rewards with those who contend, since it is possible to communicate after death even with the departed, with those who are asleep, who are already crowned, who want for nothing. For hear Paul saying, Partaking in the memories of the Saints. And how may this be done? When you admire a man, buildest his monument.}}--> when you do any of those acts for which he was crowned, you are evidently a sharer in his labors, and in his crowns.

The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day. He had compassion on me, he says, he shall therefore have the like return in that terrible Day, when we shall have need of much mercy. The Lord grant him to find mercy from the Lord. Are there two Lords then? By no means. But to us there is one Lord Christ Jesus, and one God. 1 Corinthians 8:6 Here those who are infected with the heresy of Marcion assail this expression; but let them learn that this mode of speech is not uncommon in Scripture; as when it is said, The Lord said to my Lord Psalm 110:1; and again, I said to the Lord, You are my Lord Psalm 16:2; and, The Lord rained fire from the Lord. Genesis 19:24 This indicates that the Persons are of the same substance, not that there is a distinction of nature. For we are not to understand that there are two substances differing from each other, but two Persons, each being of the same substance.

Observe too, that he says, The Lord grant him mercy. For as he himself had obtained mercy from Onesiphorus, so he wished him to obtain the same from God. Moral. And if Onesiphorus, who exposed himself to danger, is saved by mercy, much more are we also saved by the same. For terrible indeed, terrible is that account, and such as needs great love for mankind, that we may not hear that awful sentence, Depart from me...I never knew you, you that work iniquity Matthew 7:23; or that fearful word, Depart, you cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels Matthew 25:40: that we may not hear, Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed Luke 16:16: that we may not hear that voice full of horror, Take him away, and cast him into outer darkness: that we may not hear those words full of terror, Thou wicked and slothful servant. Matthew 22:13 and 25:26 For awful truly and terrible is that tribunal. And yet God is gracious and merciful. He is called a God of mercies and a God of comfort 2 Corinthians 1:3; good as none else is good, and kind, and gentle, and full of pity, Who wills not the death of a sinner, but that he should be converted and live. Ezekiel 18:24; 33:11 Whence then, whence is that Day so full of agony and anguish? A stream of fire is rolling before His face. The books of our deeds are opened. The day itself is burning as an oven, the angels are flying around, and many furnaces are prepared. How then is He good and merciful, and full of lovingkindness to man? Even herein is He merciful, and He shows in these things the greatness of His lovingkindness. For He holds forth to us these terrors, that being constrained by them, we may be awakened to the desire of the kingdom.

St Chrysostom
Born 347 AD - died 407 AD
A Bishop of the Church was explaining Saints and those who passed and used
Per ST Paul referring to his friend, Onesiphorus.
St Chrysostom, understanding the teachings kept in the Church spoke of purgatory and again - St Paul's friend.
St Paul's prayer for his friend.

 

[WarriorAngel]

^^^ And on that note - I will take the word of Tradition much closer to the understanding, same teachings and passed on than anything googled in 2024

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello @WarriorAngel, if it seemed like I wanted to debate something with you, I apologize for that!! I'll try to be even more careful next time, but just to be clear, my intent here is not to debate (with you or anyone else), but simply to understand.

I did think it necessary to show you (and others here) what I'd discovered (all from Catholic sources) because some of the conclusions that were reached (by the different sources that I read) seemed to be in opposition to one another (even within the same article, as I pointed out in my last post above).

^^^ And on that note - I will take the word of Tradition much closer to the understanding, same teachings and passed on than anything googled in 2024

I'd like to make sure that I'm understanding what you are actually saying (in the bold type above), and I'd prefer not to waste your time by guessing , so if you wouldn't mind, please clarify it for me.

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - all of this has also caused me to wonder about what Catholic "Tradition" really is. I was always pointed to Jude 3 and told that it was something that was once for all time handed down from the Apostles to the church, but this thread makes me wonder if there isn't much more to it.

This thread has also left me wondering about who decides what is and what is not an "official" Catholic Church "Tradition".

I am, in fact, going to start a thread about this, Dv (on one of the other boards) and I'll let you know when I do, because I'd love to hear what your understanding of all of this is. Thanks again

 

[WarriorAngel]

Hello @WarriorAngel, if it seemed like I wanted to debate something with you, I apologize for that!! I'll try to be even more careful next time, but just to be clear, my intent here is not to debate (with you or anyone else), but simply to understand.

I did think it necessary to show you (and others here) what I'd discovered (all from Catholic sources) because some of the conclusions that were reached (by the different sources that I read) seemed to be in opposition to one another (even within the same article, as I pointed out in my last post above).


I'd like to make sure that I'm understanding what you are actually saying (in the bold type above), and I'd prefer not to waste your time by guessing , so if you wouldn't mind, please clarify it for me.

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - all of this has also caused me to wonder about what Catholic "Tradition" really is. I was always pointed to Jude 3 and told that it was something that was once for all time handed down from the Apostles to the church, but this thread makes me wonder if there isn't much more to it.

This thread has also left me wondering about who decides what is and what is not an "official" Catholic Church "Tradition".

I am, in fact, going to start a thread about this, Dv (on one of the other boards) and I'll let you know when I do, because I'd love to hear what your understanding of all of this is. Thanks again

If in doubt, go back to the fathers.
St Paul was speaking of praying [asking for mercy] for his friend.

Hello again WarriorAngel, I agree that "in that day" could be understood as such in 2 Timothy 1:18, however, if true, I believe that this would be the only time in the Bible that it would be (the other times "that day" is used refer to things like the future Judgments (Great White Throne and Bema Seat, the second coming of the Lord, a day in the future, on this side of the grave, when a believer will face persecutions of various sorts, etc.).

The Apostle, in fact, uses the phrase when speaking about himself just a few verses prior (2 Timothy 1:12) and he is obviously alive when he does so (if you'd like, I can give you a list of all of Scriptural "that day" references so you can check them out for yourself ).

St Paul asked for mercy in that day ...
St Chrysostom elaborated specifically in regards to purgatory and so St Paul was asking for prayers.