Tertullian

[Godzman]

I was just wondering what most Catholics think about this early church father, and his later joining of the montanists, which most people probably have never heard of, but are in someways similiar, to the modern Pentecostal movement.

Anyway I am not gonna debate just want opinions facts, and thoughts

 

[Wolseley]

Brilliant theologian and apologist, who later unfortunately drifted into heretical error.


Fortunately, we have the Magesterium of the Church, led by the Holy Spirit and totally incapable of error, to interpret his writings and tell us which ones are orthodox and which ones are not.

 

[geocajun]

Wolseley said what I was gonna say

 

[JeffreyLloyd]

Me too

word for word.. really

 

[Kotton]

Of course, all being of one mind. This is what drives those crazy when debating with Catholics, we all say the same thing.

Have a good day,
Kotton

 

[Philip]

the montanists, ..., but are in someways similiar, to the modern Pentecostal movement.

Considering some of Montanus's claims, I hope modern Pentecostals are not too similiar to the Montanists

"I am the Father, the Word, and the Paraclete [Holy Spirit],"
"I am the Lord God omnipotent, who have descended into to man"
"neither an angel, nor an ambassador, but I, the Lord, the Father, am come"
-Montanus
​

 

[Maximus]

Considering some of Montanus's claims, I hope modern Pentecostals are not too similiar to the Montanists

"I am the Father, the Word, and the Paraclete [Holy Spirit],"

"I am the Lord God omnipotent, who have descended into to man"
"neither an angel, nor an ambassador, but I, the Lord, the Father, am come"
-Montanus

​

Exactly right, Philip. Montanus was a rank heretic. Sadly, Tertullian, because of his tendency to extreme Puritanism, ultimately followed him.

There are gravestones in North Africa that bear the inscription, "In the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Lord Muntanus[sic]".

Montanus claimed to be the incarnate Holy Spirit.

It's a shame about Tertullian because he was a great writer during his Catholic period. I love some of what he wrote.

 

[Godzman]

Considering some of Montanus's claims, I hope modern Pentecostals are not too similiar to the Montanists

"I am the Father, the Word, and the Paraclete [Holy Spirit],"

"I am the Lord God omnipotent, who have descended into to man"
"neither an angel, nor an ambassador, but I, the Lord, the Father, am come"
-Montanus

​

The problem is that we have none of Montanus' writings or any of his followers writings, we are hearing the opposition but not Montanus because his writing were destroyed.

I would say that if the church would have excepted his teachings on the gifts of the Spirit they would have brought more stability to the movement. I do think that we should be careful to judge Montanus when all we have is things written by those who opposed him, not any writings by those who took no side, or those who followed his teachings.

but anyway back to the subject

 

[Philip]

The problem is that we have none of Montanus' writings or any of his followers writings, we are hearing the opposition but not Montanus because his writing were destroyed.

Notice, however, that there are several different writers who condemn Montanus. Each makes the same accusation against him. There is no reason other than pure speculation to think that Montanus did not make these statements.

 

[Godzman]

The problem is that we have none of Montanus' writings or any of his followers writings, we are hearing the opposition but not Montanus because his writing were destroyed.

Notice, however, that there are several different writers who condemn Montanus. Each makes the same accusation against him. There is no reason other than pure speculation to think that Montanus did not make these statements.

but they are his opponents, say if we only had the statements for a certain person, Bill Clinton or George W. Bush for instance, let all their opponents skew their qoutes for their human benefit, it is human nature that is why it happens.

I am not saying Montanus was right or wrong, I don't know, we can suppose his opponents were truthful, which as Christians they should have been, but the lacking of spiritual gifts is dangerous for the Church, because one of those gifts is discernment, how can we discern what is the acceptable will of God without it, even with scripture, we should discern, tongues was being rejected, and God was being put in a box, but i promised not to debate so i am not saying that I would have not done the same thing to Montanus, modern pentecostals beleive in the active nature of the Holy Ghost, which is something that we supposedly share with Montanus.

 

[Maximus]

Godzman -

You are assuming the Church that condemned the teachings of Montanus and, ultimately, of Tertullian, lacked spiritual gifts and that the modern Pentecostal Movement has them.

The Lord promised to be with His Church forever (Matt. 28:20) and to send her His Holy Spirit (John 14:26). St. Paul called the Church "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). It was to the Church He Himself founded that our Lord Jesus gave authority (Matt. 16:18-20).

We can trust the Church. She has the spiritual gifts that only our Lord imparts.

Montanus was just what the Church said he was: a heretic.

Remember those gravestones in North Africa. They were erected by followers of Montanus, not by his opponents. And they put his name in place of the Holy Spirit!

I would say that was pretty powerful corroborating evidence (not that we really needed any).

 

[Godzman]

Godzman -

You are assuming the Church that condemned the teachings of Montanus and, ultimately, of Tertullian, lacked spiritual gifts and that the modern Pentecostal Movement has them.

The Lord promised to be with His Church forever (Matt. 28:20) and to send her His Holy Spirit (John 14:26). St. Paul called the Church "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). It was to the Church He Himself founded that our Lord Jesus gave authority (Matt. 16:18-20).

We can trust the Church. She has the spiritual gifts that only our Lord imparts.

Montanus was just what the Church said he was: a heretic.

Remember those gravestones in North Africa. They were erected by followers of Montanus, not by his opponents. And they put his name in place of the Holy Spirit!

I would say that was pretty powerful corroborating evidence (not that we really needed any).

point taking, but why do you hardly see gifts of the spirit being used, they are for all believers, mostly Charismatics use the gifts, 1 Corinthians lists the gifts for you. Tongues, prophecy and so forth.

There were some using gifts and there always has been, but the church could have stabilized montanism, and brought a powerful renewal to the church.