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Terminology: "Agnostic"

Vatis

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So what do you think about the word "agnostic"? Personally I think it's just an attempt to spread insecurity along atheists. Some people argue that you would have to be omniscient to be atheist, because you can never know if there really is no God.
Now there are two reasons why I think the term "agnostic" and the above argumentation is complete bull....

First, to quote Wikipedia
Atheism, in a broad sense, is the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
So atheism does not require absolute knowledge, since an atheist merely rejects to bielieve.

The second reason is, that if you have to be omniscient to not believe, then you would also have to be omniscient to believe in a diety, so everyone would, by definition, be agnostic.

This is why I think the term "agnostic" is pure nonsense. Post your thoughts.
 

SithDoughnut

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I'm agnostic and an atheist. Agnosticism refers to knowledge and can apply to anything - you can be agnostic about aliens or unicorns, for example. All it means is that you think something is unknowable. Atheism applies only to gods and a lack of belief in them. The two terms are not mutually exclusive.
 
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Penumbra

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Atheism is a position on gods. An atheist simply does not believe in gods.

Agnosticism is a position on knowledge. An agnostic with respect to theism claims no definitive knowledge as to whether there is/are god(s).

An atheist could be an agnostic, and many are, as the two terms are not mutually exclusive. A strong agnostic tends to argue that not only do they not have knowledge, but other people do not have knowledge. In addition, there are agnostics that are not necessarily atheists, in that they are rather neutral in belief when it comes to gods (and then there are agnostic theists and so forth).

So I find both the terms atheist and agnostic to be useful terms. They both convey meaning and they are not mutually exclusive.

-Lyn
 
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So what do you think about the word "agnostic"? Personally I think it's just an attempt to spread insecurity along atheists. Some people argue that you would have to be omniscient to be atheist, because you can never know if there really is no God.
Now there are two reasons why I think the term "agnostic" and the above argumentation is complete bull....

First, to quote Wikipedia

So atheism does not require absolute knowledge, since an atheist merely rejects to bielieve.

The second reason is, that if you have to be omniscient to not believe, then you would also have to be omniscient to believe in a diety, so everyone would, by definition, be agnostic.

This is why I think the term "agnostic" is pure nonsense. Post your thoughts.

Others have already pointed out the distinction in the use of the terms, but I might make these further points:

1. Atheism doesn't require absolute knowledge. Nor does any form of theism, for that matter. That is because both words relate to a belief. Beliefs are not necessarily supported by knowledge of whether or not that belief is true. We humans have all sorts of beliefs which are not necessarily supported by knowledge. Obviously a belief that is supported by knowledge is more convincing than one that is not.

2. Not everyone, by definition, is agnostic - that is quite clear. What follows from your second point is not that everyone is agnostic, but that everyone should be agnostic, and I have no problem with that adjusted statement.

I am what Penumbra describes as “neutral” on the question of God/s. They may or may not exist. If they are transcendent entities, there is no way of knowing that. I understand why people believe, it fills in gaps in our knowledge that are incredibly difficult to fill, gaps that we may never be able to fill with satisfying answers (perhaps, in some cases, because there is no answer). As a result I don’t believe any organised religions teachings – they all seem to me to be quite clearly human rather than divine institutions and cultural constructions.


There may be God/s, but he has no direct influence on my life right now that I can discern and I have no reason to believe the threats of any particular organised religions when it comes to the consequences in non-belief – I don’t feel any need to believe in a God/s or not, it isn’t a relevant question to my life.
 
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SithDoughnut

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I have a problem with any philosophy that claims what others can and cannot know. With respect to myself, I can safely say I cannot know. But as for what others can and cannot know, I have no knowledge.

I would say that until God has a definition then we can never find him, or even know if we have.
 
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variant

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So what do you think about the word "agnostic"? Personally I think it's just an attempt to spread insecurity along atheists. Some people argue that you would have to be omniscient to be atheist, because you can never know if there really is no God.
Now there are two reasons why I think the term "agnostic" and the above argumentation is complete bull....

First, to quote Wikipedia

So atheism does not require absolute knowledge, since an atheist merely rejects to bielieve.

The second reason is, that if you have to be omniscient to not believe, then you would also have to be omniscient to believe in a diety, so everyone would, by definition, be agnostic.

This is why I think the term "agnostic" is pure nonsense. Post your thoughts.

In terms of God, theists believe and atheists do not.

In terms of knowledge of God gnostic believe god is knowable or known, while agnostics believe god is unknowable or unknown.
 
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variant

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I have a problem with any philosophy that claims what others can and cannot know. With respect to myself, I can safely say I cannot know. But as for what others can and cannot know, I have no knowledge.

If a world with a God in it that prefers to remain inviable/undetectable, looks, exactly like a world with no God, then knowledge of whether God exists or not is impossible.
 
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The Nihilist

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If a world with a God in it that prefers to remain inviable/undetectable, looks, exactly like a world with no God, then knowledge of whether God exists or not is impossible.
This is trivial. The same thing is true of the Easter Bunny, a teapot in orbit around Mars, and a tribe of masturbating bears at the bottom of the ocean. Do you also want to say that you don't know that these don't exist?
 
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This is trivial. The same thing is true of the Easter Bunny, a teapot in orbit around Mars, and a tribe of masturbating bears at the bottom of the ocean. Do you also want to say that you don't know that these don't exist?

All the examples you just gave are of things posited to exist immanently. God is supposed to exist transcendently. I think that is a rather fundamental difference which renders your analogy irrelevant.
 
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The Nihilist

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All the examples you just gave are of things posited to exist immanently. God is supposed to exist transcendently. I think that is a rather fundamental difference which renders your analogy irrelevant.
I don't know that that's true of the Easter Bunny, but I don't think that changes the comparison. Do you really want to say that you don't know that there's not a teapot in orbit around Mars without getting into a little rocket ship and going to see?
 
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I don't know that that's true of the Easter Bunny, but I don't think that changes the comparison. Do you really want to say that you don't know that there's not a teapot in orbit around Mars without getting into a little rocket ship and going to see?

The Easter Bunny must have an immanent existence - if not, how am I getting all those chocolate eggs? I can't eat transcendent chocolate :p

I have no reason to beleive that there is a teapot orbiting around Mars. That doesn't mean that there isn't one. As it has no practical impact on my life, though, I see no reason to jump to any hasty conclusions in the matter ;)

I fear for the masturbating bears, though. I don't know how long they could possibly hold their breath for.

The comparison is changed when you consider the type of existence (ie. immanent or transcendent) that the object we are considering is posited to have. When we make a judgment about the existence of an immanent object we have certain bases for those judgments - the laws of physics, say, or simply our experience of the world. Occaisonly we will come up with a black swan and have to recalibrate our ideas a little, but I think in the case of undersea masturbating bears we know enough about the nature of bears and the ocean to know that such an idea is fanciful. Could a teapot actually orbit Mars? I suppose it probably could for a time. There is a certain amount of plausability there, but that is undermined by the fact that a teapot would have to be transported to that point in space in order for it to take on that orbital path. Again, there is good reason to believe that this has not occured.

The idea of an existence that transcends the immanent universe is different. Our laws of physics, for instance, are only laws within this universe. There is no reason to believe that outside of this universe those laws continue to function in the same way. All our experience pertains to this universe, so we can not really use any of this experience to make judgments about potential existence outside of it.

We have a lot of unanswered questions about our universe, how it is that there is something rather than nothing for starters. We humans create things ourselves - we create virtual worlds, for instance, with computers. It is understandable, I think, that some would suggest that our own world is a creation in much the same way as a possible solution to this question. That requires a creator which transcends the immanent universe, however, so we do not have the capacity to use the knowledge forms we have available to interogate this suggestion in any meaningful way.

I would suggest that the specific claims of specific religions, about virgin births, resurections, turning water into wine, meditating to enlightenment, talking to the spirits of the earth, etc. etc. could be compared to the bears and the teapot - these are stories which refer to immanent actions. There is indeed little reason to believe the tales of the organised religions of the world (or the unorgainsed ones too for that matter). The stories of the Bible are much easier to dismiss than the idea that there is existence which transcends the universe.
 
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variant

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This is trivial. The same thing is true of the Easter Bunny, a teapot in orbit around Mars, and a tribe of masturbating bears at the bottom of the ocean. Do you also want to say that you don't know that these don't exist?

The fact that a world with God can not be distinguished from a world without one is not a good reason to suspect God exists, and I never said otherwise.

Knowing that things do not exist is something else entirely, as prooveing negatives with evidence (the only way to have knowledge) is often almost impossible.

Which is why, when we talk about knoledge and evidence, the onus is on the people makeing positive claims to provide it.
 
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GrowingSmaller

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The funny thing about threads like this is that the entire purpose of the post blows up once you realize that the term "agnostic" has been around longer than Christians.
I thought it was coined by Huxley in 1860, although the philosophical attitude may be much older.

Vatis said:
Personally I think it's just an attempt to spread insecurity along atheists.
Anyway I don't think that agnosticism is a conspiracy against atheism. Why should it be, as one can be atheist and agnostic at the same time? All it can do against atheism is to provide a counter argument to strong atheists who claim knowledge that there is no God, but that is the nature of philosophy, argument about such issues. Maybe all philosphy which you disagree with (or fail to understand) is a conspiracy against you, tee hee.
 
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marlowe007

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Agnostic literally means to lack knowledge and atheist literally means to lack a belief in God.

An agnostic says "I do not know and I cannot know" and from there, he may choose to believe in God or not. Many Christians (and others) are agnostics because they know they can never prove that God exists, but faith is a major tenet of most religions. You are supposed to believe without proof. Many Christian doctrines explicitly require faith on the part of their followers.

Most atheists (if not all) are also agnostic. The fact that god's existence cannot be proven is usually why they choose not to believe. But that is not to say that they believe there is NO god. Saying "I believe there is no god" is not the same thing as saying "I do not believe in a god."

What people typically think of when they think of atheist is someone who believes that god does not exist. But the correct term for that is antitheist, which I suspect is not in widespread use because it does not easily roll off the tongue.
 
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jason taylor

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I think Atheist means definitely deciding one does not believe, and agnosticism means refusal to commit.

Agnostics get a bad rap. In fact it is the most logical position in the sense that nothing can be proven. I commit to Christianity because I THINK that it is true. I also admit that it hypothetically might not be. And I don't worry about it.
 
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Eudaimonist

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I think the term agnostic is fine unless one tries to make it a category unto itself that is mutually exclusive with atheism and theism. It is a question pertaining to knowledge, not to belief.

So I object to:

atheist -- agnostic -- theist

But think that this is fine:

gnostic theist -- gnostic atheist

agnostic theist -- agnostic atheist


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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