Ten Commandments

[Peter]

Okay, any one been following the Ten Commandment development in Alabama? Any thoughts?

Please forgive me, but I have a some what "whatever" feeling toward the whole thing.

Peace.

Peter

 

[Photini]

Please forgive me, but I have a some what "whatever" feeling toward the whole thing.

Me too.

I haven't really been following it (I don't watch much TV), but I've heard about it.

 

[mtown]

I must say, i have taken keen interest in this story. The reason is I find a lot of hypocrisy in the way this issue is resolving itself.

I want to begin kinda from a historical background first. The constiution of the United States does not explicitly say "Church and State are separate institutions", it say that the government will pass no law sponsoring any religious institution. What does this mean to me? That the government has no say in the function and organization of a religious institution. But it also means that the government will say that the country does not have an official religion, ie. the United States is not a Religious State. But who is fooling who? The United States was founded upon Christian moral ideals, and the Bill of Rights and the entire Constitution has kept this in mind. To the extent of having the motto "In God We Trust". Which God is this? I find it even more hard to believe arguments that "God" represents a universal sentimentality of a higher being. That is in all honesty not True, the God in "In God we Trust," is the Christian understanding of God, ie. the Trinity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Here is the next hypocrisy I see in the fundamental fabric of the United States. These God-fearing men, that everyone calls "Founding Fathers" were also Masons. I would bet that many people in governemnt and coperate America are Masons. Everyone knows that The Church, regardless of Orthodox, Roman Catholic, or Protestant, regards the freemason institution as outside the Church and excommunicants.

So maybe from the very begin of the founding of the United States, there was a intentional process that would leave us to the state we are in now. Where people that honestly believe that the United States was founded as a place where they can escape religious persecution and live in a country that protected and endorse the basic morals and ethics of God, versus those that have a inherit dislike and hate for the Church and have invested solely in the abilities on man, ie. Masons.

Many cannot see this points of view and have become the ignorant majority. Where they simple-mindedly believe that God has no place in public institutions, and again not knowing exactly what they mean by that statement.

Next thing, you never know, they might be pulling down crosses from Church steeples because they can be viewed by the public domain of the sidewalk or road. This may sound stupid, but maybe just as stupid as these people that believe that a marble monument depicted the ten commandments is tearing the constitutional fabric of the United States of America.

 

[mtown]

It is so obvious to see the Masonic heritage in the United States, all you need to do is pick up a dollar bill and see the backside of the bill. It has a copy of the masonic order of the "Illuminates".

When I am in the United States, I avoid carry dollar bills, because honest-to-God I cannot be wearing a cross around my neck and also carrying on my persons a masonic symbol. I would rather have a bunch of loose change that a dollar bill.

Think about how prevalent the Masons have become in America society and how honestly you could support the actions of the government or judicial courts!!

 

[Maximus]

I have known a lot of guys who were Freemasons. None of them have any special hatred for the Church. If there is anti-Church sentiment in Masonry, it exists at the very high levels; most of the rank-and-file members never advance much beyond the so-called "Master" level.

Don't get me wrong; I am not supporting Freemasonry. It is not for Christians.

But most of the men and women involved in it don't realize that. Freemasonry talks about God a lot and even features many references to the Bible, particularly regarding Solomon's Temple. This fools many into thinking it is a religious organization. No one can become a Mason who denies the existence of God, BTW.

For most of those involved in it, Freemasonry is a social club.

I could be wrong, of course, but I don't think the Masons plotted the destruction of Christianity in America.

Despite the references to the Creator, the U.S. Constitution is more a product of the European Enlightenment than of Christianity.

 

[mtown]

Dear Maximus,

Do not take such a light position on Masons. Their organizations are more than social clubs and far from accepting the order of the Church and the role the Church plays in the worship of God. One can come to some understanding of God outside the Church, but that understanding is complete within it's walls and with the celebration of Holy Eucharist.

Masons have no care for this. And they would sooner see a dismantling of the Church than have it involved as a voice in society. One certainly cannot call themselfs a Christian and a Mason. As belief in God and Worship is the illunined world and not the rituals of godless men like the freemasons. Freemasons live in a dark world, where the make every effort to keep their organization hidden and secret. This could not be more distant from our Christian belief. As we promote an evangelical mission, freemasons work by slithering on the ground like a snake trying not to be noticed. They manuvre themselves into positions of power because only then can they enforce "their" will of oppression for everyone outside their inner circle.

I am surprised that you cannot see these shocking differences between the Church and freemasonry. It is these people that are defacing the country of God.

I still can't see how many do not have objections to the use of masonic symbols on American currency?!?!?!?

 

[Maximus]

From mtown: Masons have no care for this. And they would sooner see a dismantling of the Church than have it involved as a voice in society. One certainly cannot call themselfs a Christian and a Mason. As belief in God and Worship is the illunined world and not the rituals of godless men like the freemasons. Freemasons live in a dark world, where the make every effort to keep their organization hidden and secret. This could not be more distant from our Christian belief. As we promote an evangelical mission, freemasons work by slithering on the ground like a snake trying not to be noticed. They manuvre themselves into positions of power because only then can they enforce "their" will of oppression for everyone outside their inner circle.

I am sorry, mtown, but I do not take such a conspiratorial view of the Freemasons. I am familiar with some of their nonsense. I agree that it is incompatible with Christianity, but I don't see Freemasonry as some all-pervasive organization whose members "slither about" trying to undermine the Church and legitimately constituted government.

I also know for a fact that Masons are not "godless." Most of them think of themselves as Christians but lack a real understanding of the Christian faith.

The Church has more to fear from the liberals and unbelievers who masquerade as her members than she does from the silly Freemasons.

 

[Photini]

I've heard something of the conspiracy theory of the Freemasons. There are many groups that would dismantle the Church given the chance.

I don't know anything about the pyramid eye thing being a Masonry symbol. I've heard it's similar but not the same. I am more concerned about the things passing through my heart and mind than what is passing through my hands.

 

[Maximus]

I've heard something of the conspiracy theory of the Freemasons. There are many groups that would dismantle the Church given the chance.

I don't know anything about the pyramid eye thing being a Masonry symbol. I've heard it's similar but not the same. I am more concerned about the things passing through my heart and mind than what is passing through my hands.

I don't know about the pyramid thing, but the eye-in-a-triangle symbol is called the "All-Seeing Eye" and is actually an ancient Christian symbol (see These Truths We Hold, by A Monk of St. Tikhon's Monastery; 1992: St. Tikhon's Seminary Press, South Canaan, PA; page 389).

 

[Photini]

I've seen newly baptised babies with pins on that have the "All Seeing Eye."

 

[Peter]

Uh, an interesting discussion on Freemansons, but this was not the point of the thread.

The point of this thread was what one thinks about the Ten Commandment issue in Alabama.

mtown expressed an interesting view regarding the alleged dichotomy between the establishment clause of the constitution and the affiliation of the founding fathers with Freemasonry. (Any one here read Thomas Jefferson's reworked Bible?)

What I find to be interesting is that most of the defenders of leaving the ten commandments where they are are Protestant. Add to that the idea that Holy Scripture is an icon and we have Protestants weeping over icons being destroyed. That's my observation. That's all.


Peace.

Peter

P.S. mtown, where are you from? You mentioned "when I'm in the United States I avoid carry(ing) dollar bills."

 

[MariaRegina]

Several years ago, the devout hieromonk, Father Andrei, may his memory be eternal, told us that he used to travel with a bishop of the OCA on his annual pastoral visits. At one dying parish, the Divine Liturgy was strangely cold. The bishop and the monk were puzzled until they saw the masonic ring on the priest's finger.

One reason why the Catholic and Orthodox Churches do not allow parishioners to be masons is that even the first and second degree masons take blood oaths. These oaths empower the masonic superiors to kill the lowly members if they ever disobey a masonic order. One oath says that they will allow their throat to be sliced open. The other oath saids that their stomach can be ripped out. They are quite gory, and these oaths are just the first two. This information was revealed to us at Catholic and Orthodox retreats by priests who knew masons who had repented. Christians are not supposed to take oath or to swear.

There are several Protestant and Catholic books available that go into more detail. These were written by former masons who risked their lives in publishing these books. The masons are not just a social club.

Hope this helps.

 

[Photini]

. One oath says that they will allow their throat to be sliced open. The other oath saids that their stomach can be ripped out.
.

YIKES.

 

[CharlieZaRus]

My grandfather (Episcopalian) was a Mason, a devout man, and married to a religious Catholic woman. He was, as expected, secretive about his Masonry, but he never showed any negativity or aggressivity towards my father's Orthodoxy or his wife's Catholicism. I am not trying to excuse Masonic activity, and I do believe in both the conspiratorial aspects of the Masons and in the inherent correctness of the Church in anathematizing them. It's just important to point out that they are people too, often misguided (in the lower echelons), but not demonic.

Also, I have to disagree about the dollar bill thing: I was told the same thing, that the symbol is ancient (and possibly Jewish, but probably not) and represents the all-seeing Eye of God. That is was accepted by the Masons is unfortunate, much like Hitler's adoption of the swastika, which had previously been a symbol of peace (the Empress Aleksandra had it embroidered on her diary and considered it her personal ,,znachok" or symbol).

Back to the Ten Commandments. I think this is definitely something that every Orthodox Christian, indeed EVERY Christian should pay attention to. As Justice Moore has already stated, this Alabama fiasco is NOT about the Ten Commandments. The federal judge ruled in those exact words, and said that the issue at stake is whether or not government officials can acknowledge God. This is double-edged for us.

First, we as Christians are bound to uphold the law, and this ruling is blatantly anti-constitutional; The First Amendment says that ONLY Congress is prohibited from (more or less) establishing an official Church. Chief Justice Moore is not Congress, and he is also sworn to uphold the [until today] valid Alabama Constitution, which acknowledges God for the being of their state and laws. Various court cases have altered the meaning of the First Amendment to their own interpretation, but nothing as vast and all-encompassing as this, a bare-faced rejection of all things (even things related to the founding of American government) intertwined with religion.

***The Doctrine of Separation of Church and State is largely a lie; Jefferson never meant it to be taken to that extreme. This is evidenced by his donation of moneys to Churches out of the Federal Treasury, and his weekly attendance at Sunday services in the Capitol building. The ,,Jefferson Bible" is another myth; it was never meant to be a <miracle-less bible>, but a secularized text documenting the ethics of Christ for education to the Native Americans, with the hope that an ingrained understanding of Christ's teachings would make it easier for them to accept the Faith.***

Second, it is important for us to realize that this is just another step towards total secularization. It is one thing after another until, as was earlier posted, we will have to hide the crosses on our steeples. It has become illegal for the government to put up Christmas decorations, it is no longer legal EVEN TO HAVE MOMENTS OF SILENCE IN SCHOOLS! because they fear someone might be praying in that time of quiet reflection. Our society has never been Orthodox, truly embracing of Christian ideals, but something is better than nothing. We need to voice whenever possible our opposition to the systematic elimination of God (that's what this is, nothing less) from our daily public lives.

 

[MariaRegina]

I've seen newly baptised babies with pins on that have the "All Seeing Eye."

Dear Photini:

In the Greek Orthodox Church, there is a superstition that someone may have put an "evil eye" curse on you or a baby. So parents put these "eyes" on the babies to protect them from it.

Every time you say that a baby is cute, the Greek parents may put a clove of garlic around the infant's neck to ward off demons. Thank goodness that superstition did not make it's way into "My Big Fat Greek Wedding," as the spitting was bad enough (a reference to spitting at the devil at the Baptism Exorcism).

There is even a blessing in the Greek prayer book to be read by the Priest for those who fear that they may have fallen under the "evil eye" curse.

I don't know where these superstitions came from. Western Christians struggle with Friday the 13th. Do you know where that superstition came from?

I suppose we all have areas that need to be enlightened. Lord have mercy. Kyrie eleison.

Yours in Christ,
Elizabeth