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Temporal Salvation?

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FreeGrace2

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5thKingdom said:
Listen, you can repeat your "feelings" about this matter all day long.
Click to expand...
Feelings?? Really? No, Jesus only spoke about "THE kingdom of heaven", which included many different peoples.

What you still haven't proven is that there are separate kingdoms of heaven. If there were, the Bible would have mentioned "kingdomS", but it doesn't.

But the Lord Jesus Christ taught differently. He specifically NAMED
four (or the five) "Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth.
Click to expand...
I've already shown this to be a LIE. He didn't NAME any "kingdom of heaven", unless you want to use the word "the" as a name. And in that case, He only named ONE kingdom, THE kingdom of heaven.

The Four Beasts of Daniel 7 show the four "Kingdoms of Heaven"
before the Lord Returns to establish the (5th) ETERNAL Kingdom.
So, you can PRETEND all you want... the BIBLE rebukes you.
Click to expand...
Wow. Speaking of PRETENDING!! You really take the cake.

So you think the chapter shows "4 kingdoms", huh. Well, it shows 4 BEASTS, none of which were named as "kingdoms of heaven".

3 Four great beasts, each different from the others, came up out of the sea.

But you can PRETEND all you want that "beast" - "kingdom of heaven".

Then I did find this verse: 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.

And I noticed these words, "HIS kingdom" twice. Hm. Not multiple kingdoms, but just ONE kingdom, which was HIS, that is Jesus Christ's.

Then this verse: 18 But the holy people of the Most High will receive the kingdom and will possess it forever—yes, for ever and ever.’ Once again, "THE" kingdom. Just ONE.

22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the holy people of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom.

Yep. Just ONE kingdom.

23 “He gave me this explanation: ‘The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it.

Yes, there were multiple "kingdoms", but the context is clear that this refers to HUMAN kingdoms. Not God's kingdom.

27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’

Once again, God's kingdom is singular. Not "multiple".

And I agree with the last verse in ch 7: 28 “This is the end of the matter.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms,
and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down,
and break it in pieces.
Click to expand...
Right. The fourth of HUMAN kingdoms, as the context makes real clear.

Notice the Bible says the Fourth Kingdom is "diverse" (different)
from all the other "Kingdoms"... that alone rebukes your fantasy.
Click to expand...
Your claim is a fantasy.

5th ETERNAL "Kingdom of Heaven" established AFTER the fourth
Beast/Kingdom is destroyed.
Click to expand...
You have conflated multiple HUMAN kingdoms with God's ONE kingdom.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; 22 Until the Ancient of days came,
and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the
time came that the saints possessed the [eternal] kingdom.
Click to expand...
Yes, God's SINGLE kingdom is eternal.

4th Beast is also shown as the Revelation Beast and as the
Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" and as Daniel's Fourth
Beast/Kingdom.
Click to expand...
Could you so kindly point me to the verse that describes the Beast as the Tribulation's "kingdolm of heaven". I didn't find that in Dan 7.

No, you have to prove your claims before there is any "basic and essential reality" of your claims. And you haven't yet.

I do NOT expect you to understand the Truth... the Bible PROMISES
that you cannot.
Click to expand...
This is rally laughable. If the Bible promises that I cannot understand the truth, then neither can you. Unless you have elevated yourself way more than you ought.

But you cannot find ONE VERSE in the Bible that
contradicts anything I say (or any of the other Last Saints preach)
So that is another Biblical prophecy fulfilled.
Click to expand...
I just went through Dan 7 and SHREDDED your opinions.
 
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5thKingdom

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FreeGrace2 said:
Yep. Just ONE kingdom.
Yes, God's SINGLE kingdom is eternal.
Click to expand...


(1) Was the Pre-Flood Kingdom ETERNAL? (NO)
Did the Pre-Flood Kingdom ONLY include saved people? (NO)
That was Daniel's 1st Beast/Kingdom


(2) Was the Jewish Kingdom ETERNAL? (NO)
Did the Jewish Kingdom ONLY include saved people? (NO)
That was Daniel's 2nd Beast/Kingdom


(3) Was the Christian Kingdom ETERNAL? (NO)
Did the Christian Kingdom ONLY include saved people? (NO)
That was Daniel's 3rd Beast/Kingdom


(4) Was the Great Tribulation Kingdom ETERNAL? (NO)
Did the Great Tribulation Kingdom ONLY include saved people? (NO)
That was Daniel's 4th Beast/Kingdom


(5) Is the Eternal Kingdom ETERNAL? (YES)
Does the Eternal Kingdom ONLY include saved people? (YES)
That Kingdom replaced Daniel's 4th Beast/Kingdom


Yep. Just ONE kingdom.
Yes, God's SINGLE kingdom is eternal.
Click to expand...


So you want to argue that each of these Kingdoms are the SAME.


You want to argue the TEMPORAL Jewish and Christian Kingdoms including both saved and unsaved... are the SAME Kingdom as
the ETERNAL Kingdom which includes ONLY saved people.


You are hilarious.

.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Yep. Just ONE kingdom.
Yes, God's SINGLE kingdom is eternal.
I am quite amazed at your lack of discernment here.

None of these things that YOU have "named" a kingdom are a separate kingdom. That's just your fantasy.

You are hilarious.

.
Click to expand...
Your naming of 5 separate kingdoms is what is really hilarious.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Im not having a hard time at all. Your the one who said that the fruit is the people not me. The plants are the people and the fruit are their works.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The kingdom of heaven is not the body of Christ because those who are joined to Christ are of the same spirit. I just showed you that in my last post in 1 Corinthians 6.

“But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many. If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you." On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it. Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭12:13-31‬ ‭NASB‬‬

God places members in the body not satan.

God has composed the body not satan.

God appoints those in the church not satan.

Matthew 7:21-23 What does Jesus say to the tares in the church? “I never knew you” They were never in the body of Christ despite their calling Him Lord, prophesying, casting out demons, and performing many miracles in His name. They were false prophets, hypocrites, actors and Jesus said “I never knew you”. False professors aka tares are not in the body of Christ. Just because a person goes to church on Sunday doesn’t make him a Christian.
 
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BNR32FAN

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5thKingdom said:
I am sorry if you do not LIKE what Jesus taught
Click to expand...

You need to just stop with these kinds of childish accusations. They’re really not necessary or helpful at all. This is not a matter of liking what Jesus said this is a matter of understanding what He said and I’m presenting ample evidence to support my position. Hence the phrase “I NEVER KNEW YOU”.
 
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BNR32FAN

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He didn’t say the church He said the kingdoms of heaven can be compared to. Your including the church in that verse. Nowhere does the Bible say that the actual church is composed of both believers and false professors. And there is not temporal church that’s just your imagination.
 
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5thKingdom

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BNR32FAN said:
Im not having a hard time at all. Your the one who said that the fruit is the people not me. The plants are the people and the fruit are their works.
Click to expand...


The issue is simple:
Do the "wheat" represent saved PEOPLE in the Christian Kingdom?
Do the "tares" represent unsaved PEOPLE in the Christian Kingdom?


That is the ONLY issue...
The wheat and tares are what is PRODUCED (the fruit) of the seed.
Both represent PEOPLE.


.
 
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5thKingdom

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No... He did not say "Kingdoms".


When Jesus said "the Kingdom of Heaven" in Matt 22:2
the CONTEXT of that verse is the Jewish Kingdom.


When Jesus said "the Kingdom of Heaven" in Matt 13
the CONTEXT of those eight (8) verses is the Christian Kingdom


When Jesus said "the Kingdom of Heaven" in Mat 25:1
the CONTEXT is the Great Tribulation Kingdom.


When Jesus said "the Kingdom of Heaven" in Mat 8:11
the CONTEXT is the ETERNAL "Kingdom".


If you cannot discern the CONTEXT of a passage
(which you obviously cannot) then you have NO HOPE
of understanding the MEANING of the passage.


Jesus specifically NAMED four (4) of the five (5) separate
"Kingdoms of Heaven" on earth. The ONLY Kingdom He did
not specifically NAME was the (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom"
containing all the saints from Adam to Noah.


It is hilarious watching people talk about passages when
they cannot even discern the CONTEXT of the passage...
WHO is the passage talking about?


Obviously the ETERNAL "Kingdom of Heaven" is different
from the TEMPORAL Kingdoms with saved and unsaved.
Or, at least it SHOULD be obvious to any serious Bible
student. It is amazing to see how many people on
this forum cannot understand CONTEXT
(WHO is the focus of the passage)?


.
 
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5thKingdom

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It is not a "childish accusation" to point out that MANY people
do not LIKE what Jesus said... so they REJECT it or intentionally
IGNORE it. That is as common as rain in the churches today...
is it "news" to you?? Or do you think that all the different
(man-made) "gospels" is just some weird coincidence?
Really?


The term "I never knew you" does, in fact mean that person
was never a saved "wheat" in the church... but it does NOT MEAN
the person was never an unsaved "tare" in the church.


OK... let's try to THINK a little DEEPER for a minute:


Read the verse CAREFULLY and notice those people are calling
Jesus their "Lord"... now... let me guess... WHO in the WORLD
calls Jesus their "Lord"?


Is it Jews (no) is it Moslems (no) is it Buddhists (no)
Is it Hindus (no) is it Atheists (no) is it Agnostics (no)
Is it Humanists (no) is it Pagans (no) is it Satanists (no)


The ONLY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD that call Jesus their "Lord"
are called "Christians".... I am sorry if you do not LIKE that reality,
But it is a reality whether you ACCEPT it or not.


Some friendly advise: You should NEVER pretend that Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what YOU can understand... I assure you it is not.
As we see in this case.


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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BNR32FAN said:
The kingdom of heaven is not the body of Christ .
Click to expand...


Now you are being ridiculous.
I NEVER SAID that "the Kingdom of Heaven" represents
the "Body of Christ" unless we are talking about the
(5th) ETERNAL "Kingdom of Heaven".


The (1st) Pre-Flood "Kingdom of Heaven" was not the Body
The (2nd) Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" was not the Body
The (3rd) Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" was not the Body
The (4th) Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" was not the Body

--------------------------------------------------------------
And, do YOU know WHY?
Because each was a TEMPORAL Kingdom with saved and unsaved
--------------------------------------------------------------

The "Body of Christ" is the SAVED PEOPLE from EACH
of the previous TEMPORAL "Kingdoms of Heaven"...
that are in the ETERNAL "Kingdom of Heaven".


That was just another STRAWMAN you constructed.
I hope you get some enjoyment constructing STRAWMEN
to knock down... since that is the ONLY result of building STRAWMEN.
I am embarrassed for you.


Jim


.
 
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BNR32FAN

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5thKingdom said:
Now THAT is some hilarious stuff.
There is a TEMPORAL church on almost every block... full of PEOPLE.
Welcome to the real world.

.
Click to expand...

The church is not a building or a place, it’s a people. You should know that.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The difference is the wheat are in Christ, they are abiding in Him, they are one spirit and one body with Him, the tares have NONE of these qualities, hence they are not in His Church.
 
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BNR32FAN

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I didn’t mean to type kingdoms plural that was a typo. I’m not aware of 5 kingdoms of heaven I’ll have to research that. I can’t ever recall seeing the kingdom of God referred to in the plural form. To my knowledge there is only one.
 
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BNR32FAN

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No what makes your false accusation childish is that it is an attack intended to discredit me based on deception. I’ve provided scriptures to support everything I’ve said and I even explained that this is not a matter of not liking what Jesus said but a matter of understanding what He said. If you would’ve said I don’t understand what He said then that’s one thing but to make the accusation that I don’t like what He said is merely a false accusation meant to attack with absolutely no evidence to support it. Your presuming to know my motivation and completely ignoring the fact that I’m explaining everything backed by scriptures to support my statements which indicates that I’m not merely rejecting what He said but explaining it from a different perspective.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Now there’s 5 kingdoms?


Why? Because excelsior springs church says so? You really shouldn’t believe everything you read on the internet, especially when it comes to theological matters. Up until this post you said “kingdom” over and over in every single post you’ve done it’s been in the singular form and now all the sudden it’s kingdoms? Before this post you said both the saved and unsaved are in the “Christian kingdom” indicating they are in the same kingdom and now your saying they’re in different kingdoms. Can you give me one verse that says God’s kingdoms, His kingdoms, or the kingdoms of heaven in the plural form from the scriptures? No because every single time it’s mentioned it’s in the singular form. There is one kingdom of God. You simply cannot admit when your wrong can you? Allow me to expose what really happened here. What really happened is you can’t refute the FACT that the body of Christ is the Church and satan cannot sow anyone into Christ’s Church only God can do that. So you resorted to looking on the internet to find some way to twist this back in your favor and found some random website stating there are five kingdoms and decided to go with that. You shouldn’t be embarrassed for me you should be ashamed of yourself for not being honest or humble enough to swallow your pride and admit that you made a mistake. You’ll never learn anything if you keep rejecting everything that doesn’t fit your theology without first giving it any consideration. Look at all these posts of your’s saying that the wheat and the tares are both sown into the “Christian kingdom”. One kingdom, singular, not plural. You changed your story because you refuse to accept the truth.



5thKingdom said:
Because Jesus sowed good saved "wheat" into the Kingdom
and Satan sowed unsaved "tares" into the Kingdom.
Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:
Now remember... nobody said unsaved "tares" are in the
"Body of Christ"... that is just you making a STRAWMAN.
The Bible says they were sown into the Christian "Kingdom"
(the church).
Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:
No... the "fruit" is the "wheat" or the "tares"... the PEOPLE
in the Kingdom.
Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:
I never said the unsaved "tares" in the Kingdom are saved..
I said the saved "wheat" in the Kingdom sown by God are
destined to eternal life and the unsaved "tares" in the Kingdom
are destined to the SAME FIRE prepared for Satan [Mat 25:41]
Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:
But make no mistake, both the "wheat and tares" are in the
[Christian] "Kingdom of Heaven"
Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:
Yes, the "tares" sown by Satan were sown with the "wheat" sown
by God in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" Of course "tares" area
a completely different plant... that is why
Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:
Jesus said the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" consists of BOTH
saved "wheat" sown by God and destined to eternal life and
unsaved "tares" sown by Satan and destined to eternal torment.
I am sorry if you do not want to accept what Jesus said.
Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:
You can PRETEND there are no unsaved "tares" in the Christian
"Kingdom of Heaven" (church) but you are only (a) pretending
and (b) contradicting the Words of Christ.
Click to expand...

5thKingdom said:
I am not confusing anything.
JESUS said the wheat are sown in the Christian "Kingdom of Heaven"
by God and the tares are sown by Satan and BOTH look alike and
grow together (in the churches) until the end of the age and the
final harvest.
Click to expand...
 
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5thKingdom

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BNR32FAN said:
The church is not a building or a place, it’s a people. You should know that.
Click to expand...


Nobody SAID the church was a building....
that building is FULL of PEOPLE calling Jesus their "Lord".


What do you call people who name Jesus their "Lord"...
in the real world they are called (wait for it.....) "Christians".


They are NOT called Jews or Muslims or Buddhists or Hindus
or Atheists or Agnostics or Humanists or Pagans or Satanists.
They are called "Christians"... and this surprises you?


But enlighten me... what do YOU CALL people in the church
who claim Jesus is their "Lord"... what do YOU call them?


Jim
.
 
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5thKingdom

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BNR32FAN said:
Now there’s 5 kingdoms?
Click to expand...


No... there has ALWAYS been five "Kingdoms of Heaven".
You should NEVER make the mistake of thinking Biblical Truth
is LIMITED to what YOU understand... it obviously is not.


(1) The Pre-Flood Kingdom containing all saints from Adam to Noah.


(2) The Jewish "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 22:2]


(3) The Christian "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 13, in 8 verses]


(4) The Great Tribulation "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 25:1]


(5) The Eternal "Kingdom of Heaven" [Mat 8:11, and many others] which is NOT temporal (like all the previous) and does NOT contained
any unsaved (like all the previous Kingdoms). It contains all of the
SAVED from each previous Kingdom.


Listen, you do not have to LIKE what Jesus specifically NAMED
and you do not have to ACCEPT what Jesus specifically NAMED,
you can follow whatever kind of "gospel" you want. But what
you CANNOT do is NEGATE what Jesus specifically NAMED.


Good luck with that.


Jim
 
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5thKingdom

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BNR32FAN said:
Allow me to expose what really happened here. What really happened is you can’t refute the FACT that the body of Christ is the Church and satan cannot sow anyone into Christ’s Church only God can do that. .
Click to expand...


Too bad JESUS contradicts your theory:


Mat 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying,
The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed
good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came
and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.


Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.


Too bad JESUS contradicts your theory.


Jim
 
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