Temporal Salvation?

TibiasDad said:

Nothing man could ever do can, in itself, obligate God to respond positively to man! It is impossible! God does what he does freely and without obligation to anything outside of himself!

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That’s not exactly true brother. If God has obligated Himself by making a covenant then He is obligated to hold to that covenant.

TibiasDad said:

And I differentiate " action" and "work", works being implied as meritorious and action's being merely acts without intent of merit. In other words, man can be required to do something without that act being meritorious in nature. God only responds to man because he has promised to do so if man repents! Repentance is a change of mind, A decision to go in a different direction based on new information or realization of truth previously unknown. Changes of mind are not meritorious in themselves, and the obedience that follows is just the expression of the truthfulness of the change of mind.

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Perhaps it’s not the action or the work at all that is taken into consideration but the motivation behind the action or work. Namely works done out of love.

TibiasDad said:

Speaking of being consistent, if you "do not accept the notion the Gospel is a "free offer"", then there is a price that man must pay; what would that be?

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But I am being consistent. The price that ALL MEN must pay is
an eternity in the same fire prepared for Satan and his demons
[Mat 25:41]. However, God wanted a people for Himself and
"elected" (in time, before Adam was created) those who He
would save. Those people have a Savior and need not pay
for their own sins.

Man has no ability to purchase anything of God. Nothing man could ever do can, in itself, obligate God to respond positively to man! It is impossible! God does what he does freely and without obligation to anything outside of himself!

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I agree. However, I was talking about the theology of many who
claim they can initiate the salvation process by some work; saying
a sinner's prayer or making an altar call or "inviting" Jesus into their
hearts or repenting of some sins or doing good more good works
then bad or "believing" in Jesus, etc, etc,


Those people absolutely teach that man can do something to
initiate the salvation process (accept or reject a "free offer")
and THEN God will SEE what a good thing they have done and
God is then OBLIGATED to save them.


"the notion that fallen man can believe and be saved"...
I thought I made it clear that was a FALSE gospel, but it is a
gospel nonetheless.

Why does it seem "like a personal opinion rather than a Scripture"?

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Because you stated an opinion without any supporting Scripture...
and a contradictory opinion at that. You argued that rejecting the
"free offer" was a choice/decision/work but then argued that
accepting the same offer was NOT a work... can't have it both
ways simply by stating acceptance is not "meritorious", THAT
is using one opinion to support another opinion.


It seems to me the issue is simple enough.
(1) Did God elect those He would save based ONLY on His own
good pleasure? or (2) Did God present a "free offer" to men where
their choice/decision/work determines their salvation?


A monergistic Gospel (the narrow way few find) preaches a
Sovereign God. A synergistic gospel (the BROAD WAY MANY TAKE)
preaches man decides his own fate.

And I differentiate " action" and "work", works being implied as meritorious and action's being merely acts without intent of merit. In other words, man can be required to do something without that act being meritorious in nature.

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Again you express your OPINION there is a difference between
and "action" and "work" that MAN performs... what Scripture
teaches that I wonder?


And saying an "action" does not have an "intent of merit"
is just foolishness.


All our "actions" are based (if we are logical and sane people) on
risk/reward or cost/benefit calculation. It is simply theological
mumble-jumble to try to separate a "work" and "action" by
putting the word "meritorious" in front of one and not the other.

God only responds to man because he has promised to do so if man repents!

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But that is just HALF of the story.
God also says that fallen man is not able to repent.
So we are back to the question of whether God is Sovereign
and saving faith is a GIFT (a monergistic Gospel) or whether
man produces that saving faith of himself choice/decision/work
and God SEES what a good thing that man has done and He is
then OBLIGATED to finish the salvation process (synergistic gospel).


We both know this is not a new argument.... does regeneration
RESULT in repentance or does repentance RESULT in regeneration?
It appears you choose the later synergistic gospel while I hold to
the former monergistic Gospel... in fact, I go a step further and
proclaim man is SAVED when elected because God cannot fail
to accomplish what He has purposed.

Repentance is a change of mind, A decision to go in a different direction based on new information or realization of truth previously unknown. Changes of mind are not meritorious in themselves, and the obedience that follows is just the expression of the truthfulness of the change of mind.
Doug

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Without getting into the question of whether (fallen) man is ABLE
to "change his mind" about his sin nature or his captivity to Satan,
just look at your argument.... you argue that making a "change"
based on wanting to go to heaven instead of hell is NOT meritorious.
That does not even pass the giggle test.


Doug, please be honest with yourself.
ANY choice/decision/change of mind to follow God and go to
heaven - instead of spending an eternity in hell MUST be meritorious
and self-serving.


Jim
.

BNR32FAN said:

That’s not exactly true brother. If God has obligated Himself by making a covenant then He is obligated to hold to that covenant.

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Exactly, God is not obligated by man's actions and man's desire, he is only obligated to his own word, integrity, and character. He doesn't act because we want him to, but because he wants to! A Sovereign God cannot be manipulated! He never acts because we demand it, but only because he demands it of himself! That he wants to do this, in spite of our lack of merit, is grace.


Doug

TibiasDad said:

Exactly, God is not obligated by man's actions and man's desire, he is only obligated to his own word, integrity, and character. He doesn't act because we want him to, but because he wants to! A Sovereign God cannot be manipulated! He never acts because we demand it, but only because he demands it of himself! That he wants to do this, in spite of our lack of merit, is grace.


Doug

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Ok but He has obligated Himself to all man. So then He is obligated to honor His covenant with all who choose to enter into it and abide by it.

5thKingdom said:

Doug, please be honest with yourself.
ANY choice/decision/change of mind to follow God and go to
heaven - instead of spending an eternity in hell MUST be meritorious
and self-serving.

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I think it typically begins that way but I think after our love for God grows it becomes more about pleasing God than saving ourself. At least it is that way for me because I have no fear of hell anymore. I know I’ll never go there as long as my heart is set on serving God.

BNR32FAN said:

I think it typically begins that way but I think after our love for God grows it becomes more about pleasing God than saving ourself. At least it is that way for me because I have no fear of hell anymore. I know I’ll never go there as long as my heart is set on serving God.

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If man's salvation BEGINS with a self-serving "work"
(decision/choice/change of mind/whatever) then that
is a "work" gospel where God is not Sovereign but a servant
to any/all MEN who want to avoid hell.


To say that salvation "BEGINS" with man's selfish action (work)
but changes as (and I quote you) "after our love for God grows..."
is the opposite of what Scripture teaches:


1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.


This is all very simple.


Gospel #1: Man chooses/decides to "believe"... then GOD
SEES that good work man has done and He is OBLIGATED to
finish the salvation process. This is the synergistic gospel of man
initiating his salvation (being the author) and God finishing
what man has begun (being the finisher). This is the
BROAD WAY that MOST Christians follow to destruction.


Gospel #2: Man cannot do anything being DEAD in sin.
God regenerates man and that produces faith and sanctification.
This is a mongeristic Gospel where God alone is Sovereign... and
it's the narrow way FEW Christians follow into eternal life.


The question is simple: does regeneration result in repentance,
or does repentance result in regeneration? It must be one or
the other... which is it?


I think we all agree that we are SAVED BY FAITH so the only
question is whether that faith is a GIFT of God to fallen/dead men
(that He elected) or whether reprobate men generate that faith,
then God SEES that good work and is OBLIGATED to save them?


And yes, as much as people want to DENY God is OBLIGATED...
the Bible is clear that those "believing" or "trusting" or having
"faith" MUST be saved. That is God's PROMISE that cannot
be broken. God is OBLIGATED by His own PROMISE.


I suggest an answer to this question can be seen in the answer
to the question of whether some men are NEVER MEANT to be
saved? And the Bible is clear (as is history) that MOST men are
never meant to be saved.


If it can be shown that MOST men were NEVER MEANT to be
saved (and that is very easily shown) then we cannot say that
salvation is a "free offer" to all men. And THAT would destroy
most synergistic gospels.


The Gospel is not a "free offer" to all men... as MOST men
were NEVER MEANT to be saved. The Gospel is a proclamation
of the FINISHED work of Christ for "His Sheep", and no others.


Jim
.

5thKingdom said:

Doug, please be honest with yourself.
ANY choice/decision/change of mind to follow God and go to
heaven - instead of spending an eternity in hell MUST be meritorious
and self-serving.

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I think your Calvinism has you cornered you into a false dilemma. That something is self beneficial is not necessarily self-serving. Besides, one coming to Christ just to avoid hell is not, Biblically speaking, a true conversion. A true conversion is sorrowful over sin, is grieved over grieving God, is repentant over his/her sins,

Doug

TibiasDad said:

I think your Calvinism has you cornered you into a false dilemma. That something is self beneficial is not necessarily self-serving. Besides, one coming to Christ just to avoid hell is not, Biblically speaking, a true conversion. A true conversion is sorrowful over sin, is grieved over grieving God, is repentant over his/her sins,
Doug

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So now we are discussing the difference between self beneficial
and self-serving? Really? You did not elaborate... what's the
difference (in your mind)?


And now you are trying to distinguish between TRUE conversion
and FALSE conversions? Where is your Scripture distinguishing
the difference? As BOTH are the result of a "free offer" gospel.


I think it's a shame you must resort to calling me a Calvinist instead
of addressing the issues I presented. First, as I am sure you know,
the 5 points of Calvinism were prepared AFTER his death in response
to the 5 points of Arminianism. Second, I have NEVER read anything
Calvin wrote so I could not be a "Calvinist". Third I disagree with the
"Calvinistic" teachings on the Atonement for sure, and possibly much
more - I do not know having not read his works.


BTW... you believe in "Limited Atonement" unless you teach
Universalism... does that make YOU a "Calvinist"?


You say that one repenting to avoid hell is not a true conversion...
but that is the sole MOTIVE for most "repentance" or conversions.
That is the "hook" used in your "free offer" gospel... chose God or
chose hell.


However, that is NOT a "hook" in a gospel which is only the
proclamation of the finished work of Christ for "His Sheep".
An interesting contrast, don't you think? Why not discuss it?


You say that being grieved is "repentance"... but you fail to say
whether that repentance is BEFORE or AFTER regeneration.
Why do you continue to avoid that issue?


In fact, you ignored 90% of what I said.


What is your response to the fact that most men were NEVER
MEANT to be saved? How does that square with your "free offer"
gospel? Do you agree MOST men were never meant to be saved?


And just speak frankly, is repentance BEFORE or AFTER
regeneration?


BTW: don't call me a Calvinist and I won't call you Arminian.
Let's just discuss the ISSUES instead of assigning labels to
dismiss specific doctrines. I am disappointed you went there
so quickly.


When I say you are teaching a synergistic gospel that is because
you are (as best as I can see). If I teach a monergistic Gospel
then deal with that - and leave Calvin to RIP.


Jim
.

5thKingdom said:

Gospel #1: Man chooses/decides to "believe"... then GOD
SEES that good work man has done and He is OBLIGATED to
finish the salvation process. This is the synergistic gospel of man
initiating his salvation (being the author) and God finishing
what man has begun (being the finisher). This is the
BROAD WAY that MOST Christians follow to destruction.

Click to expand...

This demonstrates how little you understand synergism or Arminian thought! This is a strawman argument.

Doug

5thKingdom said:

We both know this is not a new argument.... does regeneration
RESULT in repentance or does repentance RESULT in regeneration?
It appears you choose the later synergistic gospel while I hold to
the former monergistic Gospel... in fact, I go a step further and
proclaim man is SAVED when elected because God cannot fail
to accomplish what He has purposed.

Click to expand...

You are a Calvinist, whether you've read Calvin or not!

Doug

BNR32FAN said:

Ok but He has obligated Himself to all man. So then He is obligated to honor His covenant with all who choose to enter into it and abide by it.

Click to expand...

Absolutely! "God showed his love for mankind in this way, he gave his only son so that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have life everlasting!" And "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (John 3:16, 1 John 1:8-9)

Doug

TibiasDad said:

This demonstrates how little you understand synergism or Arminian thought! This is a strawman argument.

Doug

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And how (exactly) is it a strawman?

Gospel #1: Man chooses/decides to "believe"... then GOD
SEES that good work man has done and He is OBLIGATED to
finish the salvation process. This is the synergistic gospel of man
initiating his salvation (being the author) and God finishing
what man has begun (being the finisher). This is the
BROAD WAY that MOST Christians follow to destruction.

Click to expand...

TibiasDad said:

You are a Calvinist, whether you've read Calvin or not!

Doug

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No Doug... I am a Bible believer.

Jim

TibiasDad said:

Absolutely! "God showed his love for mankind in this way, he gave his only son so that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have life everlasting!" And "if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (John 3:16, 1 John 1:8-9)

Doug

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And how does that work if:
Not all men are MEANT or ABLE to believe?

Or do you pretend the Bible does not teach that some men
(most men) were NEVER MEANT to be able to believe?

Seems like a VERY IMPORTANT point in your gospel... No?

Jim

FreeGrace2 said:

To hear IS to follow.

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The word means to hearken, which refers to hear with the intention of dining what is heard.


If one follows through with his intention to obey what the Lord is saying then that one will reap the benefits that is promised.



If one begins to to do what is heard, then letter becomes distracted and wanders away from the Shepherd, the once follower of Christ can indeed become lost.


The promise comes after the following; the obeying of the Lord.


We receive the promise as our inheritance.


We inherit the kingdom of God, at the end when we stand before our Lord to receive our inheritance.


If you have a body that can still die, then you have not received or inherited eternal life.



So Jesus said to them, “Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, when the Son of Man sits on the throne of His glory, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:28-29



Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Luke 20:34-36

• nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God,

Peter says it this way —


receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.



The end result of a life of faith, keeping the faith, is receiving the salvation of our soul; that which was only the substance of the thing we were hoping for throughout our life.



JLB

5thKingdom said:

If man's salvation BEGINS with a self-serving "work"
(decision/choice/change of mind/whatever) then that
is a "work" gospel where God is not Sovereign but a servant
to any/all MEN who want to avoid hell.

Click to expand...

Salvation begins by believing the gospel and repentance.

5thKingdom said:

To say that salvation "BEGINS" with man's selfish action (work)
but changes as (and I quote you) "after our love for God grows..."
is the opposite of what Scripture teaches:

Click to expand...

Many people first consider believing the gospel because of their fear of going to heaven. That’s was my point friend.

5thKingdom said:

If man's salvation BEGINS with a self-serving "work"
(decision/choice/change of mind/whatever) then that
is a "work" gospel where God is not Sovereign but a servant
to any/all MEN who want to avoid hell.


To say that salvation "BEGINS" with man's selfish action (work)
but changes as (and I quote you) "after our love for God grows..."
is the opposite of what Scripture teaches:


1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.


This is all very simple.


Gospel #1: Man chooses/decides to "believe"... then GOD
SEES that good work man has done and He is OBLIGATED to
finish the salvation process. This is the synergistic gospel of man
initiating his salvation (being the author) and God finishing
what man has begun (being the finisher). This is the
BROAD WAY that MOST Christians follow to destruction.


Gospel #2: Man cannot do anything being DEAD in sin.
God regenerates man and that produces faith and sanctification.
This is a mongeristic Gospel where God alone is Sovereign... and
it's the narrow way FEW Christians follow into eternal life.


The question is simple: does regeneration result in repentance,
or does repentance result in regeneration? It must be one or
the other... which is it?


I think we all agree that we are SAVED BY FAITH so the only
question is whether that faith is a GIFT of God to fallen/dead men
(that He elected) or whether reprobate men generate that faith,
then God SEES that good work and is OBLIGATED to save them?


And yes, as much as people want to DENY God is OBLIGATED...
the Bible is clear that those "believing" or "trusting" or having
"faith" MUST be saved. That is God's PROMISE that cannot
be broken. God is OBLIGATED by His own PROMISE.


I suggest an answer to this question can be seen in the answer
to the question of whether some men are NEVER MEANT to be
saved? And the Bible is clear (as is history) that MOST men are
never meant to be saved.


If it can be shown that MOST men were NEVER MEANT to be
saved (and that is very easily shown) then we cannot say that
salvation is a "free offer" to all men. And THAT would destroy
most synergistic gospels.


The Gospel is not a "free offer" to all men... as MOST men
were NEVER MEANT to be saved. The Gospel is a proclamation
of the FINISHED work of Christ for "His Sheep", and no others.


Jim
.

Click to expand...

I feel like we’ve had this conversation before. I believe I quoted Revelation 2:20-21 and pointed out that while Jesus was expecting Jezebel to repent she still chose not to. This indicates her ability to repent and also her unwillingness despite being given the ability.

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2:20-21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

You’ll see the same message in Romans 2:4-5.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB‬‬