Of course not.
If eternal salvation is "eternal"...
then what part of eternal do we not understand?
.
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The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?
Heb 6 that we can taste of the heavenly fruit then reject it for life turned back to the flesh.
Amen, and appreciate your comment!Of course not.
If eternal salvation is "eternal"...
then what part of eternal do we not understand?
.
Salvation is not probation. Eternal life is not temporary life. Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.The most understandable and encouraging attribute concerning salvation is that of its permanency, after all, it is called “eternal salvation” (Heb 5:9). What part of salvation is temporary, seeing that one of the meanings of redemption is that of being saved from “eternal damnation” (Mar 3:29). Is it a sensible truism that one can be eternally saved and then not eternally saved? Thus being temporarily saved from “everlasting punishment” (Mat 25:46) is clearly a concept of an oxymoron?
Please show me any verse that teaches that man is "obligated and expected to do his part" FOR SALVATION.You're familiar with the bible and should know not only the passages but that sentiment in general, expressed throughout the bible, that man is obligated and expected to do his part, with more demanded from those given more.
No he didn't. If he did, why didn't you at least cite the actual verse?But, anyway:
Well, first of all even Paul tells us in Phil 3 that he’s striving to attain to the resurrection.
You've just cherry picked verses that you have no clue as to what they teach, but seem to support your opinions. The Greek word translated "perfect" means 'mature, complete'.And John reveals that we can be branches grafted in and later cut back off, Heb 6 that we can taste of the heavenly fruit then reject it for life turned back to the flesh. Or everywhere we see that faith, alone, doesn’t make the grade:
“Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.” Heb 11:6
“To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.” Rom 2:7
“You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.” James 2:24
“Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:19-20
“If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”
“Which ones?” the man asked.Jesus answered, “‘Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not bear false witness, honor your father and mother, and love your neighbor as yourself.” Matt 19:17-19
“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Mt 5:48
True, and NONE of this is linked to getting or staying saved.We’re forgiven washed, cleansed: justified, made new creations. From there we’re to keep our robes clean, or wash them even cleaner. We’re to live and to love as new creations, realizing that we’ll slip at times but always rising again to press onwards and upwards overall. Then the Just Judge will render His determination.
Nonsense. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life (which is given the MOMENT one believes) shall never perish. Why don't you believe in the certainly of that?We can’t know anything with perfect certainty beyond that.
Right, the extra prize thing. Way too much emphasis placed on that by some considering the relatively minimal references in Scripture.Please show me any verse that teaches that man is "obligated and expected to do his part" FOR SALVATION.
otoh, I can show you many verses that teach that man is "obligated and expected to do his part" FOR REWARD.
You give me too much credit. My citing the verse or only referring to it has nothing to do with whether or not he said it.No he didn't. If he did, why didn't you at least cite the actual verse?
Hmm, nah. You just ignore what you want and focus myopically on what you prefer, in order to support a particular, popular and false, as it turns out, doctrine.You've just cherry picked verses that you have no clue as to what they teach, but seem to support your opinions.
The word telios implies purpose, an end to which we are directed: man’s completion, his perfection, the reason he was made, ultimately to be transformed into the image of God, ultimately to love as He does, properly understood, which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are incidentally. We start the process here by the act of faith, in response to grace, Jesus having provided us with the “knowledge of God” to believe in, and the direction to pursue-He shows us the way, while being the way. We’re to follow. This has been the historical teaching of the Christian Church.The Greek word translated "perfect" means 'mature, complete'.
“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.True, and NONE of this is linked to getting or staying saved.
Because of way too much Scripture, alongside of the continuous teachings of the church in the east and west that put it differently, with sounder and more balanced teachings on justification. Anyway, it all has to do with more than a merely self-assessed level of faith-it has do with how the new relationship, entered into by faith, changes us-and whether or not we continue to welcome and act on those changes. Man’s will is never totally uninvolved. We reap what we sow. James in chap 2 of his letter was meaning to provide some balance to correct similar novel and radical ideas as well: simply, “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.”Nonsense. Jesus said that recipients of eternal life (which is given the MOMENT one believes) shall never perish.
Why don't you believe in the certainly of that?
Um, yes the elect will be saved. We'll know with absolute certainty just who they are in the next life. Meanwhile there will be some-many?-here in this life who believe they're among that number-but who are not. Otherwise, of course we can lose our place in the kingdom, because once having been justified, made righteous, on the basis of faith (Phil 3:9), we can forfeit and lose that status, by living unjustly, no longer as a new creation, no longer remaining in Him (John 15:5).Does Hebrew 6 teach that those who are "indwelt" can fall away?
Or does it teach that those who hear the Gospel... attend church
(and "taste" of the richness of the Holy Spirit) can fall away... and,
then there is no more sacrifice for them?
Understanding the Bible teaches the "church" consists of BOTH
(1) saved "wheat/sheep" in the church, sown by God and
(2) unsaved "tares/goats" in the church, sown by Satan
And we have MANY verses which teach that the saved "wheat"
have ETERNAL LIFE... since there can be no contradictions in the
Word of God, we must qualify Hebrews 6 with ALL RELATED
Scriptures. When we do that we realize that all those who
hear the Gospel and attend church have "tasted" in the
goodness of salvation - but they are not all saved.
On the other hand, if we think the Gospel teaches that men
can be "indwelt" by the Holy Spirit and inherit eternal life...
that they can LOSE that "indwelling" and eternal life, then
we have some major contradictions in the Bible that cannot
be resolved.
Php 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do
of his good pleasure.
.
Sure. You can minimize or ignore anything you want from Scripture, but the principle remains. "extra prize" my eye. Heaven isn't a "prize". It's a gift.Right, the extra prize thing. Way too much emphasis placed on that by some considering the relatively minimal references in Scripture.
Uh, I wasn't giving anyone "too much credit". I was asking a very legitimate question.You give me too much credit. My citing the verse or only referring to it has nothing to do with whether or not he said it.
Let's look at what you did post:“I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” Phil 3:10-14
Hmm, nah. You just ignore what you want and focus myopically on what you prefer, in order to support a particular, popular and false, as it turns out, doctrine.
I guess you don't understand this verse either.James in chap 2 of his letter was meaning to provide some balance to correct similar novel and radical ideas as well: simply, “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.”
so that we may make the right choice...
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” Phil 3:10-14
Whatever-I've known many people who've made that claim for-and applied those verses to- themselves. Not particularly impressive. Scripture, as well, teaches that not everyone who thinks they're saved...will be. On top of that believers are instructed to remain in Christ, to live by the Spirit and not the flesh, to persevere, etc. Not much reason for such exhortations unless for the very real possibility of turning away. And real life bears this stuff out. We reap what we sow.(1) First, the Bible does not say we find out if we are elect
in the NEXT life. It teaches we know in THIS life. Do you
need me to provide some Scriptures teaching the "indwelling"
Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit in THIS life? Or that we
have been adopted in THIS life? Or that we have eternal
life from the moment we are "indwelt"?
Exactly(2) Of course many THINK they are saved when they are not.
That is the whole POINT of Jesus teaching the church consists
of MANY unsaved "tares/goats" sown by Satan and relatively
FEW saved "wheat/sheep" sown by God. No "news" here.
And if fruit is present I would agree that we're probably one of the elect-we just won't know with 100% certainty. Who can predict if they'll persevere or not??(3) Thirdly, John 15:5 does not teach the elect can ever lose
our "indwelling" Holy Spirit... in fact it teaches the opposite.
It teaches we undergo sanctification and produce much "fruit".
Now verse 15:6 talks about the unsaved "tares" falling away.
But there are DOZENS of verses talking about the unsaved
"tares" (a) falling away and PROVING they were never elect
and (b) being surprised at the end when Jesus tells them He
NEVER knew them... depart from Me.
No, I understand it just fine, thanks anyway.You do not appear to be able to discern the CONTEXT of the
passages you read: is the context the saved "wheat" or is the
context the unsaved "tares". When you cannot discern the
context of a passage you cannot understand it's MEANING.
It's not either/or; it's both/and, God prepares us for His light. And part of that preparation is the exile into this world to begin with, away from Him, so that, like prodigals, we can experience that loss, that lack, that darkness, and then, when we're offered the light, we might be all the more willing to embrace it. It's a big plan here in place, with man's will being the prize. As Augustine put it, "He who created you without your consent does not save you without your consent". We cannot possibly find Him; He must seek out and find us, but we can still refuse to be found; we can still say "no". That's about as far as we can take it, as much as we can know.(4) The PROBLEM with your next statement (and I quote you)
We're here to learn how wrong he was, to develop a hunger and
thirst for righteousness in a world that severely lacks it due to its
proud disconnection from its Creator...
The PROBLEM with that statement is the Bible assures us that
(a) NO MAN seeks God, no, not even one and (b) we are all
born spiritually DEAD and - because of our sin nature - we are
not capable of turning to God. Jesus said that NO MAN could
come to Him unless the Father first "draws" them and ALL MEN
the Father gives Him "shall come"... and He will lose NONE of
His Sheep.
(5) Fifth... the Bible PROMISES that NO MAN will (I quote you)
"...make the right choice..." So you can just forget about any
Gospel that teaches that MAN initiates his salvation. The Bible
is clear that ANY (real) repentance is the RESULT (not the cause)
of regeneration. Otherwise you have a "works gospel" which
the Bible claims is heresy... such that men could "boast" about
what a "good choice" they made... and the bad choice of others.
The bible is often vague or even seemingly contradictory which is why many sincere-and educated-people often sincerely disagree on significant doctrine. It was, simply, never intended to be what many seem to want it to be, some sort of systematically structured catechism.I appreciate your comments but they do not reflect what the
BIBLE teaches so I have to reject them all. Do some "Christians"
fall away... absolutely. Because most "Christians" are not saved
"wheat" sown by God, with an "indwelling" Holy Spirit. Instead,
they are unsaved "tares" sown by Satan. Them "falling-away"
only PROVES that reality... or them being rejected by Jesus after
the Final Harvest PROVES that reality.
.
Paul wasn't talking about sanctification, but about the process of being saved, as he works out that salvation together with He who works in him. In the end, justification and sanctification are inseparable anyway, directed towards the same ultimate end as it were.(1) First, what is the CONTEXT of Phil 3:10-14?
Is it (a) the saved "wheat" in the church, sown by God
or (b) the unsaved "tares" in the church, sown by Satan?
You must be able to discern the CONTEXT of a passage
before you can hope to understand it's MEANING. The
context of those verses are the saved "wheat" or what
Jesus calls "His Sheep". The fact that sanctification is an
ongoing process in our life is a different issue altogether.
In fact, the Bible says some product "fruit" of thirty-fold
other produce sixty-fold and some one hundred-fold.
BTW... when Paul calls them his "brethren" or "brothers"
and "sisters" he is NOT talking about the unsaved "tares"
sown in the church by Satan. Context means everything.
/
Paul wasn't talking about sanctification, but about the process of being saved, as he works out that salvation together with He who works in him. In the end, justification and sanctification are inseparable anyway, directed towards the same ultimate end as it were.
Whatever-I've known many people who've made that claim for-and applied those verses to- themselves. Not particularly impressive. Scripture, as well, teaches that not everyone who thinks they're saved...will be. On top of that believers are instructed to remain in Christ, to live by the Spirit and not the flesh, to persevere, etc. Not much reason for such exhortations unless for the very real possibility of turning away. And real life bears this stuff out. We reap what we sow.
.
And if fruit is present I would agree that we're probably one of the elect-we just won't know with 100% certainty. Who can predict if they'll persevere or not??.
It's not either/or; it's both/and, God prepares us for His light. And part of that preparation is the exile into this world to begin with, away from Him, so that, like prodigals, we can experience that loss, that lack, and then, when we're offered the light, we might be all the more willing to embrace it. It's a big plan here in place, with man's will being the prize. As Augustine put it, "He who created you without your consent does not save you without your consent". We cannot possibly find Him; He must seek out and find us, but we can still refuse to be found; we can still say "no". That's about as far as we can take it, as much as we can know.
Man is not suddenly regenerated-that's an error of some Reformers. Man is called; he's drawn, by the Spirit, by grace, but he is never forced to accept; God doesn't cross that line-and that's exactly why He's allowed all the drama and suffering and evil in this world down through the many centuries, so that humankind might experience-might know -that evil, along with good, and come to recognize and appreciate the highest Good as revealed by His Son so that we may turn from the evil and, again, embrace the Good, when we're finally shown it.
The gospel, properly understood confirms what this life would already indicate: God sovereignly deemed that mans should be "left in the hands of his own counsel", while also giving the grace to make the right choice-as we will.Again, I have never taught that man is suddenly regenerated.
So I see this as a strawman argument. I am not interested in
what the Reformers said (as if there was a consensus on this).
I have always taught that the Father "draws/calls" those who
He elects.
But when you talk about being "forced to accept" you make
two errors.
First, I never suggested anyone if "forced" to do anything.
Not only is it our "free will" desire to be saved, we are BEGGING
God to save us... but that happens AFTER He first starts to
"draw" us.
Secondly, this is not a matter of "accepting". There is not
ONE VERSE in the Bible that says we "accept" Jesus. And
there is not any verse that says someone God "draws"
will or can refused to be saved.
NO MAN can come to Christ unless the Father "draws" them
and ALL MEN the Father draws "shall come" to Christ and
He will lose NONE of His Sheep. [John 6]
Granted, the Bible says "Many are called but few are chosen"
Meaning... Many are "called" by the Gospel but few are
"chosen" to become saved.
So I am NOT talking about the Gospel "call" to repent...
who many do refuse. Instead I am talking about those elected
before the foundation of the world being "drawn" by God...
they can not reject since they are BEGGING to be saved.
I can see where we could argue about this point.
But it's an argument you cannot win unless you think
you can prove that MAN is Sovereign over God.
Jim
.
Ok, and your opinion doesn't make theirs either right or wrong. And often those believers who've preceded us have had much to offer-and we'd very possibly believe differently without their input. Just saying.First, I could not care less what Augustine or Calvin said.
I only care what the Bible says.
Alright...and I said that it's not either/or, but both/and; God draws, and we may or may not accept.Secondly, I am not sure WHAT you are arguing?
I have always said that NO MAN can come to Christ unless
the Father first "draws" them.
.
We can have a level of assurance, balanced by humility with an awareness of our limitations and weaknesses. God is 100% trustworthy and true, while we are the wildcards in it all. He, alone, knows with absolutely certainty the beginning from the end, whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.Same question as the last post...
Are you saying the BIBLE teaches that the Saints cannot have
an assurance of their election in this life?
I don't want to waste time arguing this point if you already
admit the Bible DOES TEACH the Saints can have assurance
of their election in this life.
Jim
.
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