tell me why

[hernyaccent]

Why is it that Charles Manson can rot in jail for his crimes while Eileen Wuonos & Wanda Jean Allen were injected to death?

Who decides what crime is a worst crime?

Since the women where lesbians accused of murder in the great "BIBLE BELT" does that mean they should have been condemned to death based on their sexuality. All three of the individuals above were proven clincally retarded or impaired yet only the homosexuals of the group were executed.That is true of all cases I have examined. A homosexual all recieves worst punishment in middle america.


I was once a christian and was wondering what ever happened to this passage =
"
And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye?"

Why does this rule only apply when convent for christians?

 

[12volt_man]

Why is it that Charles Manson can rot in jail for his crimes while Eileen Wuonos & Wanda Jean Allen were injected to death?

Because they were tried and sentenced in different states. Different states have different laws.

Since the women where lesbians accused of murder in the great "BIBLE BELT" does that mean they should have been condemned to death based on their sexuality.

They weren't sentenced to death based on their sexuality.

All three of the individuals above were proven clincally retarded or impaired yet only the homosexuals of the group were executed.That is true of all cases I have examined. A homosexual all recieves worst punishment in middle america.

If this is true of all of the cases that you've examined, why don't you take a few minutes and demonstrate this for us?

I was once a christian and was wondering what ever happened to this passage =
"
And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye?"

Why does this rule only apply when convent for christians?

Since none of the people involved here were Christians, the verse is irrelevant.

 

[Stormy]

Manson saw his death sentence commuted to life in prison following a 1976 California Supreme Court decision declaring the state's death penalty law unconstitutional... had nothing to do with sexuality.

 

[Harold Fletcher]

Why is it that Charles Manson can rot in jail for his crimes while Eileen Wuonos & Wanda Jean Allen were injected to death?

Who decides what crime is a worst crime?

Since the women where lesbians accused of murder in the great "BIBLE BELT" does that mean they should have been condemned to death based on their sexuality. All three of the individuals above were proven clincally retarded or impaired yet only the homosexuals of the group were executed.That is true of all cases I have examined. A homosexual all recieves worst punishment in middle america.


I was once a christian and was wondering what ever happened to this passage =
"
And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye?"

Why does this rule only apply when convent for christians?

Good question. I don't know.

 

[Harold Fletcher]

Good answers!

 

[hernyaccent]

Because they were tried and sentenced in different states. Different states have different laws.



They weren't sentenced to death based on their sexuality.



If this is true of all of the cases that you've examined, why don't you take a few minutes and demonstrate this for us?



Since none of the people involved here were Christians, the verse is irrelevant.[/QUOTE]It isn't so much the sentencing but the rally's against them that hit home for me. If Aileen and Wanda were not lesbians would so many people really have gotten together and wanted them dead? Wanda's victoms mother even plead for Wanda to get life in jail.

1/4/01 Robert William "Eagle" Clayton
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]1/9/01 Eddie Trice[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]1/11/01 Wanda Jean Allen (female)[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]1/16/01 Floyd Allen Medlock[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]1/23/01 Mark Fowler[/size][/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica][size=-1]1/25/01 Billy Ray Fox[/size][/font]



That is the list of others people executed the same month as Wanda Allen yet not one " Christian" protested for these other murders to be executed. That truly bothers me. I am not excuses any of the crimes I just notice that the penalty for gays,lesbians and transgender in all RED state is harass because your BIBLE says so. The majority of jurors in each case was a christian male or female.

If that bible verse doesn't apply to you and me because I am not " christian" then perhaps christians should stop judging non believers and start looking at their brothers. I have only encountered a hand full of christians who can explain themselves with out attacking the views and beliefs of others.



The only TWO highly publicized murderers were two lesbian women. You can honestly tell me that no other woman in Florida or Oklahoma committed murder?

All the individuals in these cases where CHRISTIAN so that verse is very valid.

I am not here to argue and perhaps my statement came out wrong. I just want to understand the christian point of view. I

 

[Harold Fletcher]

Yet more good points. This may prove to be an interesting thread. Where's the popcorn?

 

[hernyaccent]

Manson saw his death sentence commuted to life in prison following a 1976 California Supreme Court decision declaring the state's death penalty law unconstitutional... had nothing to do with sexuality.

that is my point.

 

[12volt_man]

It isn't so much the sentencing but the rally's against them that hit home for me.

So then, why did you say it was the sentencing? You said that this was true in all of the cases you've examined, so obviously this is something that you (presumably) have put some thought into.

Why change your story now?

If Aileen and Wanda were not lesbians would so many people really have gotten together and wanted them dead? Wanda's victoms mother even plead for Wanda to get life in jail.

I have no idea but your point was that people are sentenced differently based on their sexual orientation.

Since you're now backing away from that statement, your point is moot.

I am not excuses any of the crimes I just notice that the penalty for gays,lesbians and transgender in all RED state is harass because your BIBLE says so.

So then, first they're sentenced differently, according to their sexual orientation, then they're not, now they are again?

Do you know what the Bible says about a "double minded man"?

Where does the Bible say to harrass anyone? I'm pretty familiar with the Bible and I've never seen anything like that taught.

Would you mind showing us where it is?

The majority of jurors in each case was a christian male or female.

How do you know this?

All the individuals in these cases where CHRISTIAN so that verse is very valid.

How do you know this?

I am not here to argue and perhaps my statement came out wrong. I just want to understand the christian point of view.

So far, it looks like you've already made your mind up what the Christian view is.

 

[Cabes]

This is a screwed up world in which we live my friend. I see your point, and unfortunately it happens all over the world, not just in the US. I think God would answer you in a way which would somehow turn your gaze from looking at all the **** in the world and to focus on his wonderful love-filled face. What matters is that God loves us more than anything. He loves Eileen Wuonos & Wanda Jean Allen just as much as the christians who were protesting. He wasnt pleased in the whole affair, coz people are forgetting to look to Him.

 

[hernyaccent]

So then, why did you say it was the sentencing? You said that this was true in all of the cases you've examined, so obviously this is something that you (presumably) have put some thought into.

Why change your story now?



I have no idea but your point was that people are sentenced differently based on their sexual orientation.

Since you're now backing away from that statement, your point is moot.



So then, first they're sentenced differently, according to their sexual orientation, then they're not, now they are again?

Do you know what the Bible says about a "double minded man"?

Where does the Bible say to harrass anyone? I'm pretty familiar with the Bible and I've never seen anything like that taught.

Would you mind showing us where it is?



How do you know this?



How do you know this?



So far, it looks like you've already made your mind up what the Christian view is.

I addressed the sentencing but it was the events as a whole from the day these two when were tried till the day they died. People are treated different based on their sexual orientation every where in this country. Deny it if you want. The notion that this anti-gay mentality is az idiotic as saying people werentdiscrimated against based on their race or using your bible to justify that. No matter what sinI have put before 99.9% of christians I know there is nothing worst then homosexuality. Why is that?

I am not saying you bible says to harass someone. I am simply saying the BIBLE is peoples excuse for measure homosexuality as a high sin. You bible also says for women to keep their heads covered at all times and don't each
shrimp. I think very few people follow these laws of God but you pick and choose verses that prove your own personal views. How can you example to someone like me who grew up in a christian background and knows the bible pretty well but doesn't believe it why homosexuality is wrong?

I notice also that the anti-gay statements are made by christians who have never met an out homosexual.

The majority of jurors in each case was a christian male or female.

How do you know this?

I know because I have watched documentaries and the jurors after which were interviewed. That is a question a New York Times reported actually asked all the jurors in one of the cases .

I have not made up my mind about anything. No one has given me a successful argument as to way is it the only evidence you ever use is your bible which has a million different ways of being looked at. Perhaps you can?

 

[hernyaccent]

This is a screwed up world in which we live my friend. I see your point, and unfortunately it happens all over the world, not just in the US. I think God would answer you in a way which would somehow turn your gaze from looking at all the **** in the world and to focus on his wonderful love-filled face. What matters is that God loves us more than anything. He loves Eileen Wuonos & Wanda Jean Allen just as much as the christians who were protesting. He wasnt pleased in the whole affair, coz people are forgetting to look to Him.

At least someone agrees with me that God loves everyone no matter the sin and actually sees my point. You I respect even if disagree with my opinion on this issue because you aren't arguing with a NON BELIEVER on your terms alone.

 

[12volt_man]

I addressed the sentencing but it was the events as a whole from the day these two when were tried till the day they died.

But if it involves the "events as a whole", then this would include the sentencing.

One final time: was it the sentencing or not?

People are treated different based on their sexual orientation every where in this country. Deny it if you want.

Actually, I didn't deny it.

What I deny is that the death sentence given to these people is based on their orientation.

This was your claim and rather than demonstrating your claim, you've backed away from it. Now you're claiming it again?

The notion that this anti-gay mentality is az idiotic as saying people werentdiscrimated against based on their race or using your bible to justify that.

Would you mind translating this for those of us who don't speak gibberish?

No matter what sinI have put before 99.9% of christians I know there is nothing worst then homosexuality. Why is that?

Well, that's odd because I am a Christian and I'm around other Christians all the time and I've never heard any of them say this.

In addition, you still haven't given us an example.

I am not saying you bible says to harass someone.

Actually, that's exactly what you said.

I am simply saying the BIBLE is peoples excuse for measure homosexuality as a high sin.

You're correct. The Bible does say that homosexuality is a sin but the idea of a "high sin" is not something that's taught in Christianity. In fact, in eighteen years of studying the scriptures and seven or so years of ministry, I've never even heard this phrase before. Would you mind showing us where in scripture sins are divided into "high sins" and (one presumes) "low sins"?

You bible also says for women to keep their heads covered at all times and don't each shrimp. I think very few people follow these laws of God but you pick and choose verses that prove your own personal views.

Actually, Paul's instructions in 1 Cor 11 are metaphorical, referring to propriety in worship and hierarchy in the Godhead and nowhere in scripture are Christians told not to eat shrimp.

Both of these have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

How can you example to someone like me who grew up in a christian background and knows the bible pretty well but doesn't believe it why homosexuality is wrong?

Oh, yeah, we can tell that you're a real Bible scholar. Why haven't you even offered one verse of scripture to back up your claims?

I notice also that the anti-gay statements are made by christians who have never met an out homosexual.

How do you know? Just so you know, I have several friends who are gay and I will speak out against homosexuality.

How does it change God's word one way or the other if someone knows a gay person?

I know because I have watched documentaries and the jurors after which were interviewed. That is a question a New York Times reported actually asked all the jurors in one of the cases .

What were the names of some of the documentaries? I'd be curious to see them for myself.

If you're going to say that the New York Times reported something, then you need to cite this for us.

I have not made up my mind about anything. No one has given me a successful argument as to way is it the only evidence you ever use is your bible which has a million different ways of being looked at. Perhaps you can?

First of all, you're the one making the claim so it's not up to us to make an argument, but up to you. So far, you've only made outrageous statements that you refuse to back up.

Second, this has nothing to do with the Bible. Your topic is whether or not these people were sentenced differently because they were gay.

 

[Cabes]

You I respect even if disagree with my opinion

sorry what was your opinion? maybe I've just missed the whole dang thing. I am feeling a bit out of it ha ha!

 

[GodAtWorkToday]

I would suggest that size of public outcry in this case was a direct result of the amount of media attention that it attracted. That's interesting because many many journalist, if not most are NOT Christians. They simply sense a story and go after it. This is what would have prompted the outcry, not necessarily their sexual orientation.

Homosexuality is no worse sin than any other sin, such as adultery, fornication, stealing, murder, idolatry, greed, pride, lying. However, understand this, while it is no worse, it is STILL sin and therefore unacceptable to God and His people.

We had a close family friend who was NOT gay. She however was engaged in fornication and proved herself to be a compulsive liar. This person is no longer a family friend. We prayed for her, invited her to church and bible study (which she did attend), and presented God's truth's to her. However, there was no acceptance of Christ and no change of behaviour.

Since we no longer wanted the constant sin to be part of our lives and the lives of our children we parted association. I would do the same with a person who was gay. I would pray for them. I would invite them to church. I would share God's Word with them. If after a time there was no acceptance of God and no change, I would part company and move on.

A Christian cannot stop the sins of the world passing them by, or from time to time entering their house. They can however draw a line and say this far and no farther. We do not need to embrace the sins of the world. An awareness of them is more than enough.

 

[hernyaccent]

But if it involves the "events as a whole", then this would include the sentencing.

One final time: was it the sentencing or not?



Actually, I didn't deny it.

What I deny is that the death sentence given to these people is based on their orientation.

This was your claim and rather than demonstrating your claim, you've backed away from it. Now you're claiming it again?



Would you mind translating this for those of us who don't speak gibberish?



Well, that's odd because I am a Christian and I'm around other Christians all the time and I've never heard any of them say this.

In addition, you still haven't given us an example.



Actually, that's exactly what you said.



You're correct. The Bible does say that homosexuality is a sin but the idea of a "high sin" is not something that's taught in Christianity. In fact, in eighteen years of studying the scriptures and seven or so years of ministry, I've never even heard this phrase before. Would you mind showing us where in scripture sins are divided into "high sins" and (one presumes) "low sins"?



Actually, Paul's instructions in 1 Cor 11 are metaphorical, referring to propriety in worship and hierarchy in the Godhead and nowhere in scripture are Christians told not to eat shrimp.

Both of these have nothing to do with the topic at hand.



Oh, yeah, we can tell that you're a real Bible scholar. Why haven't you even offered one verse of scripture to back up your claims?



How do you know? Just so you know, I have several friends who are gay and I will speak out against homosexuality.

How does it change God's word one way or the other if someone knows a gay person?



What were the names of some of the documentaries? I'd be curious to see them for myself.

If you're going to say that the New York Times reported something, then you need to cite this for us.



First of all, you're the one making the claim so it's not up to us to make an argument, but up to you. So far, you've only made outrageous statements that you refuse to back up.

Second, this has nothing to do with the Bible. Your topic is whether or not these people were sentenced differently because they were gay.

I am saying that out of all the women who committed murders in these two states the only two who were executed where homosexual females. If it's an eye for an eye in some cases why not for others?

Gibberish because I misspelled a word and forgot a space?

You can't honest believe that the majority of Christians compare their child telling them a lie to homosexuality. For some reason among Christians there is a pyramid of sins. A little white lie is better then having anal intercourse with another man according to most CHRISTIANS....NO?

I have spent my life which is only a short twenty years around not just Christians but many other religions yet the only one that condemns others is Christianity.

I said Christian justify their discrimination by using God's Word.

I never said the Bible divides up sins Christians do. That is the thing you don't seem to understand about my points. I believe in God,Jesus,being born again and a relationship with my Savior. I don't believe in Christianity. This man made religion that justifies it's hatred for other individuals life style choice because a bible only they believe in says so.

It's a metaphor when you want it to be a metaphor.

Christians are very much told not to each shrimp=
Leviticus 11:10|10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales-whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water-you are to detest.

If I am not mistaken old laws have passed away yet you still apply those you choose today.


Why would I use examples from a Bible I don't believe in to prove my point? I have never claimed to be a scholar but I am aware of basic Christian teachings.

Your environment and people you are exposed to definitely changes who you are. I am from New York City and I am sure my outlook on a lot of things in life are different then the experience say a twenty year old in Texas. Your environment dictates you prejudices.


I have tried to cite things on here with links but I haven't ben a member long enough. It gives me a lost of reasons why I can't put outside links.

[size=-1]"The Execution of Wanda Jean" Director Liz Garbus [/size]

&
Aileen: The Life and Death of a Serial Killer by Nick Bloomfield

Check those out.


My statement about the Bible is valid. Christians use their Bible as a source to non believers. I want to know how you explain your stands on these subjects without using your bible.

 

[hernyaccent]

I would suggest that size of public outcry in this case was a direct result of the amount of media attention that it attracted. That's interesting because many many journalist, if not most are NOT Christians. They simply sense a story and go after it. This is what would have prompted the outcry, not necessarily their sexual orientation.

Homosexuality is no worse sin than any other sin, such as adultery, fornication, stealing, murder, idolatry, greed, pride, lying. However, understand this, while it is no worse, it is STILL sin and therefore unacceptable to God and His people.

We had a close family friend who was NOT gay. She however was engaged in fornication and proved herself to be a compulsive liar. This person is no longer a family friend. We prayed for her, invited her to church and bible study (which she did attend), and presented God's truth's to her. However, there was no acceptance of Christ and no change of behaviour.

Since we no longer wanted the constant sin to be part of our lives and the lives of our children we parted association. I would do the same with a person who was gay. I would pray for them. I would invite them to church. I would share God's Word with them. If after a time there was no acceptance of God and no change, I would part company and move on.

A Christian cannot stop the sins of the world passing them by, or from time to time entering their house. They can however draw a line and say this far and no farther. We do not need to embrace the sins of the world. An awareness of them is more than enough.

I feel as if Christians go through the Bible and pick and choose what is right for their cause and opinion. In the same token I understand that this isn't acceptable to SOME Christians. Many things are not acceptable to individuals but there has to be a common ground of respect and when you have the majority against you telling you that you are abnormal how does you gain respect?

God has never spoken truth to me but I have heard mans truth about God.You believe taking away your friendship from someone because they aren't doing things your way is justified? Perhaps you didn't know the situation within her marriage. You never know what goes on behind closed doors.

You have this notion that is SINS OF THE WORLD is more then your own sin. I don't believe GOD would turn anyone away if he were on this earth. Jesus didn't turn away the leper or the prostitute simply because according to the people they were sinners. He didn't yell at them and tell them how they were horrible and wrong. He was humble. That is something I feel Christians need to learn. How to stop making people see things their why because there is no 100% that their way is right.If that were the case all Christians would feel and believe the same things.

 

[Cabes]

That is something I feel Christians need to learn. How to stop making people see things their why because there is no 100% that their way is right.If that were the case all Christians would feel and believe the same things.

Dude this writing is so small!! it's hard to read!! I think I'm getting an angle where you're coming from. maybe... You're right. I really think you don't need to let this get to you so much otherwise it will just bog you down. I think so long as you're right with God in your own eyes from the scripture than no-one else has the right to judge or condemn you. Only God has the right to condemn us, and just like the prostitute mary, he doesn't because Jesus stands in our place. I've come across many many Christians who want to argue about what colours the pebbles were around the cross....

 

[12volt_man]

I am saying that out of all the women who committed murders in these two states the only two who were executed where homosexual females. If it's an eye for an eye in some cases why not for others?

Answer the question: were they senteced differently according to their sexual orientation or not?

I have spent my life which is only a short twenty years around not just Christians but many other religions yet the only one that condemns others is Christianity.

Actually, Christianity doesn't condemn anyone. This only gives further doubt to your claims that you've studied the Bible.

I said Christian justify their discrimination by using God's Word.

Yes, you did, and we're still waiting for you to give us an example of scripture telling us to do this.

I never said the Bible divides up sins Christians do.

Your exact words:

I am simply saying the BIBLE is peoples excuse for measure homosexuality as a high sin.

That is the thing you don't seem to understand about my points. I believe in God,Jesus,being born again and a relationship with my Savior. I don't believe in Christianity.

So then, you love Jesus but you hate the church He died for? Did you know that the Bible says that Jesus is coming back to claim the church as a groom would claim his bride?

This man made religion that justifies it's hatred for other individuals life style choice because a bible only they believe in says so.

Again, please give us an example.

It's a metaphor when you want it to be a metaphor.

It's a metaphor regardless of whether or not I want it to be.

Christians are very much told not to each shrimp= Leviticus 11:10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales-whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water-you are to detest.

I hate to break this to you, but this was written to Jews under the Old Covenant, not Christians. You say you've studied the Bible?

Why would I use examples from a Bible I don't believe in to prove my point?

Because you're claiming that the Bible teaches certain things which any Christian here knows that it doesn't.

If you're going to claim that the Bible teaches something, then you need to back it up and show us where these things are taught.

I have never claimed to be a scholar but I am aware of basic Christian teachings.

But you're not aware. Every single time in this thread that you've claimed that Christianity teaches something, you've gotten it wrong.

Check those out.

I will. Now, if you would be so kind as to answer my question re the New York Times. By the way, is this the same New York Times you're citing that had to fire three reporters and half of it's editorial staff last year for fabricating stories?

I want to know how you explain your stands on these subjects without using your bible.

Actually, I haven't cited the Bible at all.

My stand in this thread is based on simple observation and logic.

 

[12volt_man]

Going on line to find where I could rent The Execution of Wanda Jean to answer your challenge, I came across five different reviews of the film, including an interview with the director.

Not one of them said anything about either "Wanda Jean" or the jurors being Christians.

I have to be honest with you, I would think that that would be the crux of the movie. For no one, not even the director of the film, to mention it doesn't look good.