Telchin

[Tishri1]

my $.02 : You cant put MJism neatly in a box
+ $.02 more: You cant knock down a wall with your arms crossed

 

[BarbB]

CM - I read the book last fall as I was searching for where I belonged. I was pretty horrified that one of the "pioneers" seemed to be trashing the movement. OTOH, and I'm going to say this as kindly as I can - Stan is old and may not be the man he was years ago.

Anyway, I had gotten the book at a thrift shop and felt no shame in putting it in the garbage. There are so many positive books about MJ - figures that the enemy would try to confuse me further with that stoooopid book!

 

[ContraMundum]

CM - I read the book last fall as I was searching for where I belonged. I was pretty horrified that one of the "pioneers" seemed to be trashing the movement. OTOH, and I'm going to say this as kindly as I can - Stan is old and may not be the man he was years ago.

I guess I think Stan is really just dissapointed how evangelism has taken a back seat- that and a couple other issues, but really, there were a lot of positives in the book too. For a start, he isn't saying that the whole movement is the same.

But he is old. I don't think many authors write well in their 80's. I think just about every theologian or pastor I have read gets worse with age. I think Luther is the best example. His early work is gracious and loving, but by the end of his life its sharp and harsh. Maybe the old guys in the limelight get battle-weary and bitter, I don't know.

 

[yod]

I would recommend "Copernicus and the Jews" by Daniel Gruber. A jewish believer who is an equal opportunity offender. No one escapes his critical exam.




Yes, Stan Telchin makes some valid critical points...but his overall broad-brush is that the messianic movement is completely cultic and that is character assassination of the worse kind. The result is slandering the name of many good and faithful people.

Stan Telchin, a Messianic Jew and author of Messianic Judaism Is Not Christianity (Chosen Books), says those within the movement think Messianic Judaism is superior to Christianity, which he says impedes the Bible's call to unity.

I would agree had he said "some" feel this way. I might even have allowed the word "many" though it would be true only in certain places. But to say that "those within the movement" feel this way is an exaggeration that makes us all look like pinhead legalists.

The faithful aren't called to have a "Spirit of Unity" anyway....but unity in the Spirit is the goal and that requires love, patience, understanding and forgiveness. Yes, the messianic movement has it's share of weirdness but that is mostly because it's unique character attracts more than our share of "problem people" that need spiritual maturity and growth.

We get the rejects from the church. The people who have been burned or cast out. The people who are looking for religious structure in the Law.

Understanding the Law allows one to better understand the purpose of grace, imo.

The 80-year-old Jews for Jesus missionary adds that Messianic congregations appeal largely to Gentile Christians who enjoy traditional Jewish customs such as wearing yarmulkes and prayer shawls. Telchin says this offends and angers the Jewish community, which holds such practices in high regard and reserves them only for observant Jews. He says the Messianic movement may, in effect, alienate the very people it is trying to win to Christ.

I tend to agree with that statement.

But it is an in-house arguement that outsiders wouldn't understand. What would happen if a well-known priest wrote a book called "the fantasy of transubstantiation and the lies of the Catholic Church" and it appeared in christian bookstores without having ever discussed his "disagreements" with the regional Catholic authorities?

He would be removed and severly sanctioned and we all know it.

It goes against Yeshua's method of addressing problems among brothers (Matthew 18:15-17) because he took this to outsiders first. That is the biggest problem. He was not looking to bring unity...he was looking to spread guile.

 

[plum]

I would recommend "Copernicus and the Jews" by Daniel Gruber. A jewish believer who is an equal opportunity offender. No one escapes his critical exam.




Yes, Stan Telchin makes some valid critical points...but his overall broad-brush is that the messianic movement is completely cultic and that is character assassination of the worse kind. The result is slandering the name of many good and faithful people.




I would agree had he said "some" feel this way. I might even have allowed the word "many" though it would be true only in certain places. But to say that "those within the movement" feel this way is an exaggeration that makes us all look like pinhead legalists.

The faithful aren't called to have a "Spirit of Unity" anyway....but unity in the Spirit is the goal and that requires love, patience, understanding and forgiveness. Yes, the messianic movement has it's share of weirdness but that is mostly because it's unique character attracts more than our share of "problem people" that need spiritual maturity and growth.

We get the rejects from the church. The people who have been burned or cast out. The people who are looking for religious structure in the Law.

Understanding the Law allows one to better understand the purpose of grace, imo.







I tend to agree with that statement.

But it is an in-house arguement that outsiders wouldn't understand. What would happen if a well-known priest wrote a book called "the fantasy of transubstantiation and the lies of the Catholic Church" and it appeared in christian bookstores without having ever discussed his "disagreements" with the regional Catholic authorities?

He would be removed and severly sanctioned and we all know it.

It goes against Yeshua's method of addressing problems among brothers (Matthew 18:15-17) because he took this to outsiders first. That is the biggest problem. He was not looking to bring unity...he was looking to spread guile.

wise, yod.

 

[Hadassah]

I can't remember if I purchased this book, or put it on my list of "must reads"... but now that I have read what everyone has said, I seem to remember the magazines and SBC material that got into the hands of *MY RELATIVES* written by/for/about Telchin and his "loving call to unity" that actually disparaged the movement, called us cultic/a cult and said how we are against scripture and should be taken in hand, and our salvation investigated and "ensured".. (not exact words, but "jist" of the articles).

For YEARS I have been battling my own family, the ones I went to their churches with, the ones who **KNOW** I am saved, and have had long theological and doctrinal conversations with... and since this, I had my grandparents come and sit me down to "assure my salvation" (no one could truly put to words how badly THAT hurt), with my fiance. . . because they had to know about him too, because of these articles and the folks that came to their congregations talking about the MJ Movement and how unscriptural and cultic it was, and "save them!!"...

My cousins and my aunt and uncle still do not take me seriously, 4 years after.

And in honesty, it has hurt my walk with them in a major way. They have come to visit, I have offered to take them to services with me, no one will accompany me.

Before my grandfather had passed away about a year and a half ago, I had the opportunity for a long while to call him almost every weekend, or every other weekend and share with him what I was learning in Midrash (we were studying Genesis, and I was studying other things on my own too) and we were getting deep into the hebrew, and what things meant, and how that impacts us and to follow torah... etc...

My grandma told me that he would stay up late after we talked and pull out his concordances and open E-sword and take out his bible and examine and critique what I said and then go back to her and explain what I was talking about in a way she could understand it, and that he was agreeing with what I said.

I don't understand yet why he didn't share with the rest of the family, but I know in his eyes I had gained some respect.


My grandparents and I had gotten on a good standing, but the rest of the family has not.


I'd like to write more, but sadly I am at work, and now in tears.

Telchin has done more harm than help in this area, and unfortunately I and my fiance are ones who have really felt the hurt in a deep way.

 

[ContraMundum]

Hmmm....I like your post yod...you challenge my mind.

I would recommend "Copernicus and the Jews" by Daniel Gruber. A jewish believer who is an equal opportunity offender. No one escapes his critical exam.

Duly noted. Although I have no idea what an equal opportunity offender is, I will look into it because I'm going through MJ books like tacos right now, and I will have nothing left to read by tomorrow.

Yes, Stan Telchin makes some valid critical points...but his overall broad-brush is that the messianic movement is completely cultic and that is character assassination of the worse kind. The result is slandering the name of many good and faithful people.

Being one of only two people on this thread who actually read the book, I can say on good authority that in no place is the MJ movement called cultic, and no one person is slandered in the book.

Also, Telchin goes at lengths in a few places in the book to say that his critique does not apply to all MJ's.

Consider this review from the J4J website:

http://www.jewsforjesus.org/publications/havurah/8_1/telchinreview2

I don't think judging the book by its harshest critics is looking terribly wise from this reader's perspective.

Yes, the messianic movement has it's share of weirdness but that is mostly because it's unique character attracts more than our share of "problem people" that need spiritual maturity and growth.

We get the rejects from the church. The people who have been burned or cast out. The people who are looking for religious structure in the Law.

Yes, interesting. I have noticed that and I'd love some personal anecdotes about that. Rejects from the church etc have always been of special interest to me, and it's interesting to see where they end up. I personally think we need to minister to them.

Do you think that ministering to the "weirdness" folks should be a new mandate for the MJ movement or at least some congregations? Should it shift emphasis just a teensy bit and have some special ministries?

But it is an in-house arguement that outsiders wouldn't understand.

What makes you say that? You're the second person on this thread to mention that- and it is a puzzling perspective to me- most churches are transparent, and most MJ congregations I know are very transparent, honest, open and easy to see them for what they are- normal Christian churches in good standing with their evangelical and charismatic friends. Why do you think one can judge, say, for example the RCC from the outside (as below) but not MJ'ism? How do you think it differs and why?

What would happen if a well-known priest wrote a book called "the fantasy of transubstantiation and the lies of the Catholic Church" and it appeared in christian bookstores without having ever discussed his "disagreements" with the regional Catholic authorities?

He would be removed and severly sanctioned and we all know it.

That happens all the time, often without repercussion- think of Fr. Malachi Martin for just one example.

 

[yod]

Being one of only two people on this thread who actually read the book, I can say on good authority that in no place is the MJ movement called cultic, and no one person is slandered in the book.

but surely you realize that is doesn't take much for some people to hate the jews to the point of murder. That makes it a different level of sensitivity where a few sentences here or there don't really cover the damage done.

Yes, interesting. I have noticed that and I'd love some personal anecdotes about that. Rejects from the church etc have always been of special interest to me, and it's interesting to see where they end up. I personally think we need to minister to them.

Hey bro...we can always use laborers in this field

Do you think that ministering to the "weirdness" folks should be a new mandate for the MJ movement or at least some congregations? Should it shift emphasis just a teensy bit and have some special ministries?

It ain't "new" necessarily... there are always people coming in from SDA-type groups or mad at the church for not telling them about the Torah.

Many of them reject everything they ever heard in the church and swallow anything they hear from someone with a yarmulke claiming to teach "Hebrew roots".

There are more and more "lone-ranger" congregations out there who are a law unto themselves as gentiles form messianic congregations for reasons of pride/ego/authority apart from the jews they claim to love.

They sow bitterness that has to be healed over time. Everyone wants to be "the jews" until persecution comes.

But it is an in-house arguement that outsiders wouldn't understand.

Why do you think one can judge, say, for example the RCC from the outside (as below) but not MJ'ism? How do you think it differs and why?

Because almost every christian is reading the bible with a hellenistic perspective which they got from the RCC. They can not (and often will not) understand the hebraic context which is our biggest difference. It is what makes someone "Messianic" in my opinion.

So its like applying baseball rules to a football game.

That happens all the time, often without repercussion- think of Fr. Malachi Martin for just one example

The Inquisition comes to mind.....

 

[BarbB]

CM and Yod - thanks for the interesting thread.

CM, one of the difficulties I have with the MJ movement is that many do come out of churches in bitterness that they had no education on Jewish Roots. I can't tell you the number of people coming out of my own Church of God merely because they took my rabbi's Jewish Roots class. Indeed, what I've learned has lifted my heart, teased my intellect and made my love for G-d just explode. But others are bitter that the Christian Church seems to do everything wrong according to Torah. Indeed, most of the holidays were specifically set up by the RCC so as NOT to match the Jewish feasts and festivals which Yeshua so clearly fulfilled. The result is that Gentiles try to be more Jewish than the Jewish believers. That's a match not made in heaven.

For myself, I just enjoy what I'm learning, loving Shabbat, reading like mad, etc. btw, I still go to a good Christian church on Saturday evening. He's a great pastor, there's always something to be learned and one can't worship our G-d enough, imho.

 

[Ivy]

Someone was just telling me that in their opinion, Stan Telchin basically took a fruits-n-nuts sample from the lunatic fringe and pronounced a whole movement granola on that basis. That doesn't seem too fair if that's what happened.

This person also said they felt the title was a little deceptive. I took the title to mean "Jewish believers should not feel obligated to look and act like Christians in order to believe in their own Messiah." But apparently it means something quite different, more on the line of "Messianic Judaism is not legitimate."

Yod, why do you think the movement attracts more than its share of hurting people, outcasts, etc? I think that is true, but I don't understand why it's so.

 

[Ivy]

Because almost every christian is reading the bible with a hellenistic perspective which they got from the RCC. They can not (and often will not) understand the hebraic context which is our biggest difference.

Yes, that is true, unfortunately. I've had some exasperating conversations with my fellow Christians, and prejudices really do die hard.

 

[yod]

."

Yod, why do you think the movement attracts more than its share of hurting people, outcasts, etc? I think that is true, but I don't understand why it's so.

I doubt that there is one simple answer but generally speaking I think it is because the messianic movement is unique in the Body overall. This causes misconceptions about what it "is" so we attract people with an outcast agenda who think we are in agreement with them.

For instance, I myself went from being an atheist to being messianic over the question of Shabbat and the Feast Days. When I read the Bible and saw things that the church ignores totally, I assumed that the entire church was blind. I had already been critical of the church as an atheist for years...and this new "secret knowledge" gave me a sense of superiority over christians. I was quite legalistic and it took someone who knew the torah to show me the meaning of grace.

But I'm still a problem child in many ways!



mmmmm....do I smell a pizza?

 

[Ivy]

I doubt that there is one simple answer but generally speaking I think it is because the messianic movement is unique in the Body overall. This causes misconceptions about what it "is" so we attract people with an outcast agenda who think we are in agreement with them.

I also wonder if it's because MJ is new and novel....it's the novelty factor, maybe? Like you more or less said, lots of people like to blow shofars and dance the hora, anything that seems groovy for the moment.......but persecution is not groovy, and if persecution appeared, the people who were just out for "groovy" would likely disappear.

What is an outcast agenda, do you think? (I'm not familiar with the term.)

 

[ContraMundum]

but surely you realize that is doesn't take much for some people to hate the jews to the point of murder. That makes it a different level of sensitivity where a few sentences here or there don't really cover the damage done.

The book isn't really directed at any issue regarding anti-semitism- it's really about imbalance in elements of the movement. I'm not sure I follow you here, am I missing something?

Hey bro...we can always use laborers in this field

Believe me when I tell you- my church attracts a lot of fringe people too- just a different kind. But, because my ministry is largely itinerant these days, I don't get much chance to minister to them in any depth- which is both a blessing (less stress for me) and a curse (because I love to help when I can).

Only G-d knows the future though.

It ain't "new" necessarily... there are always people coming in from SDA-type groups or mad at the church for not telling them about the Torah.

OK..

Many of them reject everything they ever heard in the church and swallow anything they hear from someone with a yarmulke claiming to teach "Hebrew roots".

That's scary. The church has been going along for 2000 years, and there's so much good stuff there- where would we be without the great devotional writings of the church?

But, I've met one person like that only recently. I really couldn't understand her aversion to the writings of Spirit-filled saved Christians who were Gentiles. I told her she needed to do a course in "Hellenic roots". LOL

There are more and more "lone-ranger" congregations out there who are a law unto themselves as gentiles form messianic congregations for reasons of pride/ego/authority apart from the jews they claim to love.

..and that's something I think Telchin is addressing in that book.

They sow bitterness that has to be healed over time. Everyone wants to be "the jews" until persecution comes.

True. My mother is always using that line when talking about MJ's. To be honest, the MJ movement seems to keep her away from Yeshua. But, that's probably just an excuse.

Because almost every christian is reading the bible with a hellenistic perspective which they got from the RCC. They can not (and often will not) understand the hebraic context which is our biggest difference. It is what makes someone "Messianic" in my opinion.

Well, to be fair, Judaism itself was Hellenised a bit after the invasion of Alexander to some degree. If it weren't for the Maccabean Revolt we would have almost been completely absorbed into Hellenistic culture and thought.

Also, parts of the NT must be understood in a Hellenistic manner, for sure. Especially when studying Koine Greek and the writings of Paul, who really knew how to apply Hellenistic thought to get to the Gentiles. There are times when he writes and speaks their language, under inspiration, of course.

But, one thing I have found- is that the Church, as I experience it, is more than open to Hebrew roots teaching. They find it interesting. Maybe it's because I minister in Anglican congregations (and many others, usually derivatives of Anglicanism like Methodist) where people are open minded and they already see Hebraic roots right through the liturgy as well as have a hunger for "more".

I think the Holy Spirit is teaching the church to have "more" right now, and the hearts of the faithful are opening up to Hebrew roots teaching.

The Inquisition comes to mind.....

There days Catholic priests get away with an awful lot. It's almost funny, if it wasn't so ironic.

 

[ContraMundum]

CM and Yod - thanks for the interesting thread.

CM, one of the difficulties I have with the MJ movement is that many do come out of churches in bitterness that they had no education on Jewish Roots. I can't tell you the number of people coming out of my own Church of God merely because they took my rabbi's Jewish Roots class. Indeed, what I've learned has lifted my heart, teased my intellect and made my love for G-d just explode. But others are bitter that the Christian Church seems to do everything wrong according to Torah. Indeed, most of the holidays were specifically set up by the RCC so as NOT to match the Jewish feasts and festivals which Yeshua so clearly fulfilled. The result is that Gentiles try to be more Jewish than the Jewish believers. That's a match not made in heaven.

For myself, I just enjoy what I'm learning, loving Shabbat, reading like mad, etc. btw, I still go to a good Christian church on Saturday evening. He's a great pastor, there's always something to be learned and one can't worship our G-d enough, imho.

I hear ya BarbB, and you are one blessed woman in Our Lord!

In a perfect world, I would probably attend a MJ congregation on Sat and still keep my commitments on Sunday in the tradition I am called to (which I love, make no mistake about it- He is among us!). But, the world is not perfect- maybe G-d will change that one day.

 

[yod]

The book isn't really directed at any issue regarding anti-semitism- it's really about imbalance in elements of the movement. I'm not sure I follow you here, am I missing something?

I'm sure that Stan wasn't anti-semetic but being critical of jewish congregations requires a special sensitivity because of anti-semetism within the church.

For example; There are things going on in Israel where messianics are being persecuted by the Orthodox. I could probably shed light on some of that in the American church and bring enough pressure to get some of it stopped...but at what price?

There are people who would take that information and broad-brush this as "The jews are persecuting christians" which would be disasterous to the bridges that have been formed between American evangelicals and the nation of Israel.

Stan's book seems to allow anyone with an agenda against messianic jews some justification.

I'm not worried about it too much because this is either a move of the Holy Spirit or it needs to die. I think the former rather than the latter.

Many of them reject everything they ever heard in the church and swallow anything they hear from someone with a yarmulke claiming to teach "Hebrew roots".



That's scary. The church has been going along for 2000 years, and there's so much good stuff there- where would we be without the great devotional writings of the church?
But, I've met one person like that only recently. I really couldn't understand her aversion to the writings of Spirit-filled saved Christians who were Gentiles. I told her she needed to do a course in "Hellenic roots". LOL

I've gotten along fine without any devotional writings of the church...but there are still many things about the historical christian Body that are edifying to all of us.

There are more and more "lone-ranger" congregations out there who are a law unto themselves as gentiles form messianic congregations for reasons of pride/ego/authority apart from the jews they claim to love.


..and that's something I think Telchin is addressing in that book.

But unless one understands the situation, they might get the impression that is what the entire messianic movement is. I've been told that his book suggests those places have become more the norm than the exception.

Because almost every christian is reading the bible with a hellenistic perspective which they got from the RCC. They can not (and often will not) understand the hebraic context which is our biggest difference. It is what makes someone "Messianic" in my opinion.


Well, to be fair, Judaism itself was Hellenised a bit after the invasion of Alexander to some degree. If it weren't for the Maccabean Revolt we would have almost been completely absorbed into Hellenistic culture and thought.

Yes, that was the very purpose of the Pharisaical movement. Hellenistic jews are mentioned in Acts 6 and in Acts 9 so, yeah, hellenism has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. I'm a hebraic goy (mostly). There is nothing necessarily wrong with having a hellenistic philosophical lifestyle but interpreting hebraic concepts in a hellenistic way causes a problem. This is what 99% of the church does without realizing their error. When that gets challenged to consider another perspective they respond with cries of "Heresy!"

But, one thing I have found- is that the Church, as I experience it, is more than open to Hebrew roots teaching. They find it interesting. Maybe it's because I minister in Anglican congregations (and many others, usually derivatives of Anglicanism like Methodist) where people are open minded and they already see Hebraic roots right through the liturgy as well as have a hunger for "more".
I think the Holy Spirit is teaching the church to have "more" right now, and the hearts of the faithful are opening up to Hebrew roots teaching.

I generally agree.

God is doing a new thing but not everyone is open to hearing it yet. Those who have spirits alive to the Holy Spirit can hear Him though.

In the near future, I think that Israel will be a dividing line in every place where there already exists a division but that is probably another thread.

 

[ContraMundum]

Yod, you speak my language...

I'm sure that Stan wasn't anti-semetic but being critical of jewish congregations requires a special sensitivity because of anti-semetism within the church.

For example; There are things going on in Israel where messianics are being persecuted by the Orthodox. I could probably shed light on some of that in the American church and bring enough pressure to get some of it stopped...but at what price?

OK, now I follow you. I agree with that.

There are people who would take that information and broad-brush this as "The jews are persecuting christians" which would be disasterous to the bridges that have been formed between American evangelicals and the nation of Israel.

Stan's book seems to allow anyone with an agenda against messianic jews some justification.

One would hope not- I think it's more about the failure to witness to Jews and some theological points (the imbalanced stuff).

I'm not worried about it too much because this is either a move of the Holy Spirit or it needs to die. I think the former rather than the latter.

It's totally a move of the Spirit. I wholeheartedly believe that. It will take time to find its way. Pray brethren, pray!

I've gotten along fine without any devotional writings of the church...but there are still many things about the historical christian Body that are edifying to all of us.

Well, I've had the classical Christian theological education, so I've lived on those wonderful writings. However, I have always known that the theologians that tackle the Jewish roots always kick goals. There's always been theologians that touch on that, and those have kept the flame from dying out, so to speak. (I'm not trying to sound triumphalist about Hebrew roots here, just saying that they are important)

But unless one understands the situation, they might get the impression that is what the entire messianic movement is. I've been told that his book suggests those places have become more the norm than the exception.

I didn't get that impression, but then again, I'm a careful reader. It may be possible to get the wrong idea. The title alone is provocative enough!

Yes, that was the very purpose of the Pharisaical movement. Hellenistic jews are mentioned in Acts 6 and in Acts 9 so, yeah, hellenism has nothing to do with race or ethnicity. I'm a hebraic goy (mostly). There is nothing necessarily wrong with having a hellenistic philosophical lifestyle but interpreting hebraic concepts in a hellenistic way causes a problem. This is what 99% of the church does without realizing their error. When that gets challenged to consider another perspective they respond with cries of "Heresy!"

Good outlook.

I generally agree.

God is doing a new thing but not everyone is open to hearing it yet. Those who have spirits alive to the Holy Spirit can hear Him though.

I agree. It's all Biblical though. Even the Lubavitchers think God is getting Israel ready for Messiah by calling them back to Himself. It's all happening folks! Get ready!

In the near future, I think that Israel will be a dividing line in every place where there already exists a division but that is probably another thread.

I look forward to it!

 

[Tishri1]

I hear ya BarbB, and you are one blessed woman in Our Lord!

In a perfect world, I would probably attend a MJ congregation on Sat and still keep my commitments on Sunday in the tradition I am called to (which I love, make no mistake about it- He is among us!). But, the world is not perfect- maybe G-d will change that one day.

I think you should try it Contra, I do this too! I get blessed by attending both and I think It keeps me humble and sweet, one day we will all be joined into man , one in Messiah and we need people who understand both sides to help connect the seams

 

[ContraMundum]

I think you should try it Contra, I do this too! I get blessed by attending both and I think It keeps me humble and sweet, one day we will all be joined into man , one in Messiah and we need people who understand both sides to help connect the seams

Tishri my friend, pray with me for my situation to allow it to happen. I'd appreciate it.

 

[Tishri1]

Tishri my friend, pray with me for my situation to allow it to happen. I'd appreciate it.

you betcha