Team Work

[ThatRobGuy]

This was originally my response to someone else's OP stating that they felt that another belief had illogical views:

I don't think anyone's views are illogical. Everyone believes what they believe for a reason. I'm an agnostic,...I'm this way because I'm a person who loves to learn, and I want to gather as many facts as possible before commiting to something. I can tell you as a unbiassed third-party (because I don't identify with atheists or christians..) , that I have seen many posts on this site from all affiliations could be considered illogical.....

atheist : "There's no god"
-obviously existance didn't just create itself...

christian : "The Noah's ark story is 100% true"
-obviously two of every animal on the planet didn't fit on a 500ft boat...

Everyone is illogical...the human brain has errors. If anyone knew the absolute truth, it would make perfect sense and it would be too amazing to deny or ignore. The fact that everyone isn't on the same page yet, leads me to believe that no one has discovered anything THAT amazing yet.

The only way we, as a human family, are going to make any progress in finding the truth, is if we work together. I have never...in my life...turned anyone away when they wanted to tell me about their beliefs and their faith. I've talked to every kind of person you think of,...Some of them, great people, others....some of the most hateful people on the planet.

I can tell you from experience..when someone tells you about their faith, and involves concepts of "how evil" other people are, it can really turn you off to their beliefs. I learned a lot of great things from people from all kinds of religious backrounds, they all have something good to offer if you only take the time to listen.

__________________
On the topic of how life began: The only absolute truth is... that we'll never find the absolute truth, all we can do is keep trying to constantly learn. The moment that we become content with an idea and feel we know the answer, is the exact moment when we start getting further from the very truth that we think we know.
​

I've included my signature as part of my post because I feel that this post plus my sig, pretty much sum up my philosophies as a whole.

Do you agree or disagree??
(although I'll probably get disagreements from both sides)

 

[Cleany]

if a person cannot listen to another person without telling them that the other person is wrong, and that they have "the truth" it says a lot about them.

sometimes is can be necessary to be like that - "you are on fire" for instance - but when it comes to theological issues it is never so simple.

beliefs are, i think, driven by problem solving. so, for example, a liberal person might say "the truth is not only in the bible" because of the problems that they see in it, yet another person might say "the bible is the infallible truth of god" because they see problems with people believing "what they like".

so the question is, what are the right motives, perhaps what is the best thing to fear!

personally i fear, or dislike anyway, alienating people not being able to co-operate with them. so i like teamwork and not offending people. i also believe that god doesnt want to alienate anyone, in fact he will go out of his way to help people that are far from him, like dying on a cross, for example. so, i try to behave in the same way, and certainly would tell anyone that they are going to "hell", whatever that might mean.

i wouldnt doubt the integrity of someone that would say that to someone, but i would question them to examine their beliefs and motives fully. something that in our world of readily available information should be easy to do, but, paradoxically, it happens far less than you would imagine.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

I'm glad to see at least 3 people have acknowledged that they agree with my idea....thanks guys

 

[skinner]

This was originally my response to someone else's OP stating that they felt that another belief had illogical views:

I don't think anyone's views are illogical. Everyone believes what they believe for a reason. I'm an agnostic,...I'm this way because I'm a person who loves to learn, and I want to gather as many facts as possible before commiting to something. I can tell you as a unbiassed third-party (because I don't identify with atheists or christians..) , that I have seen many posts on this site from all affiliations could be considered illogical.....

atheist : "There's no god"
-obviously existance didn't just create itself...

christian : "The Noah's ark story is 100% true"
-obviously two of every animal on the planet didn't fit on a 500ft boat...

Everyone is illogical...the human brain has errors. If anyone knew the absolute truth, it would make perfect sense and it would be too amazing to deny or ignore. The fact that everyone isn't on the same page yet, leads me to believe that no one has discovered anything THAT amazing yet.

The only way we, as a human family, are going to make any progress in finding the truth, is if we work together. I have never...in my life...turned anyone away when they wanted to tell me about their beliefs and their faith. I've talked to every kind of person you think of,...Some of them, great people, others....some of the most hateful people on the planet.



I can tell you from experience..when someone tells you about their faith, and involves concepts of "how evil" other people are, it can really turn you off to their beliefs. I learned a lot of great things from people from all kinds of religious backrounds, they all have something good to offer if you only take the time to listen.

__________________

On the topic of how life began: The only absolute truth is... that we'll never find the absolute truth, all we can do is keep trying to constantly learn. The moment that we become content with an idea and feel we know the answer, is the exact moment when we start getting further from the very truth that we think we know.

​

I've included my signature as part of my post because I feel that this post plus my sig, pretty much sum up my philosophies as a whole.

Do you agree or disagree??
(although I'll probably get disagreements from both sides)

The Noah's ark story is 100% logical...

But, anyway, I've always been willing to listen to anyone's veiws. I may not agree with them, I may think they are off the wall or looney tunes. But I'll listen, and their veiw are not going to keep me from being friends with them, unless they are downright dangerous and hate me or something like that.

Are everyone's veiws logical? Uh, no, sorry some are wildly illogical, but that's ok, some of them think my veiws are too.

 

[""]

-obviously two of every animal on the planet didn't fit on a 500ft boat...

The Ark was 45 feet high and approx 450 feet long. If you compare it to the size of a Boeing 747, you will see that you could have fit two of them in there, if the wings had been clipped off. Being that you don't store anything in the wings of a 747, that makes it truthful that you could fit 2 of them in there, as far as storage is concerned. There was more than enough room to fit 2 of every bird and 2 of every animal on it. You don't have to believe it in order for it to be true. That is one thing that non-believers don't seem to understand. The world does not, and has not revolved around their beliefs. True, you can say "well it's not true just because you believe it" but that point is no more valid or invalid than my own, which puts us on an even playing field.

I can tell you from experience..when someone tells you about their faith, and involves concepts of "how evil" other people are, it can really turn you off to their beliefs.

First off, anybody who tells you how evil you are in comparison to them isn't a Christian. We're all evil.

For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23

There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins. Ecclesiastes 7:20

That means nobody. No minister. No priest. No nun. No president. No common man. Nobody. We're all even. The only thing that makes Christians different than non-Christians is that we accept the blood of Jesus as an offering for our sins, and you don't. But we're still just as evil as you, just as sinful as you. The forgiveness offered is a gift from God, and if you don't believe, that doesn't make it any less real.

We're not enemies. You don't have to be a Christian to be moral either. You can be a very moral person, and not believe in God at all. You can call yourself a Christian and have very poor morals.

That's about all I have to say on that for now, but I'm open to more discussions, and especially when they're peaceful.

 

[Nymphalidae]

The Ark was 45 feet high and approx 450 feet long. If you compare it to the size of a Boeing 747, you will see that you could have fit two of them in there, if the wings had been clipped off. Being that you don't store anything in the wings of a 747, that makes it truthful that you could fit 2 of them in there, as far as storage is concerned. There was more than enough room to fit 2 of every bird and 2 of every animal on it. You don't have to believe it in order for it to be true. That is one thing that non-believers don't seem to understand. The world does not, and has not revolved around their beliefs. True, you can say "well it's not true just because you believe it" but that point is no more valid or invalid than my own, which puts us on an even playing field.

It's not just a matter of fitting the animals in, it's also a matter of feeding them. Even so, I think the 400,000+ species of beetles would fill the place up pretty quickly. There is also the little problem that the majority of plants would drown, all the aquatic animals would die, and the microorganisms in specialized habitats would be obliterated. See, the water would become too fresh for the saltwater organisms and too salty for the freshwater organisms. That is, if there was even enough water to cover the surface of the planet, which there isn't. There is also the fact that just two of every species does not provide enough genetic diversity to start a new population. I would also be interested to know how Noah defined species, and how he was able to identify all the species without modern equipment.

But I'm forgetting...it's magic. Stupid me.

 

[""]

Even so, I think the 400,000+ species of beetles would fill the place up pretty quickly.

C'mon. You've studied science. When did beetles become animals?



Genesis 6:18-21 YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION

18`And I have established My covenant with thee, and thou hast come in unto the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy son's wives with thee;


19and of all that liveth, of all flesh*, two of every [sort] thou dost bring in unto the ark, to keep alive with thee; male and female are they.

20Of the fowl after its kind, and of the cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground** after its kind, two of every [sort] they come in unto thee, to keep alive.
21`And thou, take to thyself of all food that is eaten; and thou hast gathered unto thyself, and it hath been to thee and to them for food.'


*flesh refers to meat. insects are not flesh.

**creeping thing of the ground... mice, rats, snakes, etc. They're flesh.
Again, not bugs. Bugs are not flesh.

 

[""]

Also, if you don't believe an insect can survive a flood and/or an ice age:
Capture one. Put it in an ice cube tray (filled with water), and immediately put it in the freezer. Later, take the ice cube out, and let it thaw in a bowl. If the bug moves... eat it.

 

[Seeking...]

I disagree. (Don't worry, I disagree with just about everybody)

While I certainly don't believe that I have all (or any) of the answers - I'm not willing to subscribe to the idea that there is no absolute truth or that it is completely unknowable.

Because I do believe there is a God - I believe there is absolute truth - I simply don't have access to it - be God could change that any time he wants...

As for everyone having something to offer - I disagree on that as well. Maybe my experiences are just weirder than most, but I've met a few people who have had nothing to offer. Belief systems are as varied as people and there are some folks whoose beliefs exist only to justify their use of others for their own ends. I learned nothing from them except maybe how depraved humans can be...

 

[Cleany]

I disagree. (Don't worry, I disagree with just about everybody)

While I certainly don't believe that I have all (or any) of the answers - I'm not willing to subscribe to the idea that there is no absolute truth or that it is completely unknowable.

Because I do believe there is a God - I believe there is absolute truth - I simply don't have access to it - be God could change that any time he wants...

As for everyone having something to offer - I disagree on that as well. Maybe my experiences are just weirder than most, but I've met a few people who have had nothing to offer. Belief systems are as varied as people and there are some folks whoose beliefs exist only to justify their use of others for their own ends. I learned nothing from them except maybe how depraved humans can be...

do you beileve that it is possible for god to make enough of himself known to you that you could subscribe to a belief system such as christianity, if that is what you discovered equated with your revelation?

 

[Seeking...]

do you beileve that it is possible for god to make enough of himself known to you that you could subscribe to a belief system such as christianity, if that is what you discovered equated with your revelation?

I consider it possible, but unlikely - as I don't believe that God has revealed himself to mankind, nor would I subscribe to a belief system based on revelation alone if I questioned aspects of the beleif & I have questions about all the belief systems I am acquainted with (even my own...)

 

[Cleany]

I consider it possible, but unlikely - as I don't believe that God has revealed himself to mankind, nor would I subscribe to a belief system based on revelation alone if I questioned aspects of the beleif & I have questions about all the belief systems I am acquainted with (even my own...)

interesting. have you decided that there is no possibility that god has revealed himself to mankind, or have you ome to this answer by experience - e.g. you have sought god and he has not answered?

im glad that you question your belief system, so do i

 

[ThatRobGuy]

The Noah's ark story is 100% logical...

Then Evolution is 100% logical as well...

Just because one thing makes sence to you doesn't mean it happened.

Being that none of us were actually there for the beginning of either event means that both are still a theory and not necessarily a fact.

 

[skinner]

Being that none of us were actually there for the beginning of either event means that both are still a theory and not necessarily a fact.

I totally agree.
BTW, on the arguement about the animal all fitting, you don't need two of every animal, only two of every species. In other words, you need two canines, not two wolves and two foxes and two dogs and so on.

 

[skinner]

I consider it possible, but unlikely - as I don't believe that God has revealed himself to mankind, nor would I subscribe to a belief system based on revelation alone if I questioned aspects of the beleif & I have questions about all the belief systems I am acquainted with (even my own...)

I have questions about my belief system, too. Doubt is one of the greatest motivations to drive us to more understanding, IMO.
I'm curious, tho' as to why you don't think that God has revealed himself. If you mean that he has not totally revealed every aspect of his nature, I would agree. But, I doubt if it is possible for us to comprehend any but the smallest fraction of who God is.
Even just looking at nature, I find it impossible to disbelieve that God is revealing something of himself.

 

[levi501]

whoa, there's really people that believe the story of Noah is literally true..

 

[Nymphalidae]

C'mon. You've studied science. When did beetles become animals?



Genesis 6:18-21 YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION

18`And I have established My covenant with thee, and thou hast come in unto the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy son's wives with thee;


19and of all that liveth, of all flesh*, two of every [sort] thou dost bring in unto the ark, to keep alive with thee; male and female are they.

20Of the fowl after its kind, and of the cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the ground** after its kind, two of every [sort] they come in unto thee, to keep alive.
21`And thou, take to thyself of all food that is eaten; and thou hast gathered unto thyself, and it hath been to thee and to them for food.'


*flesh refers to meat. insects are not flesh.

**creeping thing of the ground... mice, rats, snakes, etc. They're flesh.
Again, not bugs. Bugs are not flesh.

Insects are in Phylum Arthropoda, which is in Kingdom Animalia. I've eaten beetle larvae before, so it is obviously flesh which can be consumed. Also, many insects creep along the ground, which is why you can catch them in pitfall traps. Just for your information, all bugs are insects, but not all insects are bugs.

 

[Nymphalidae]

Also, if you don't believe an insect can survive a flood and/or an ice age:
Capture one. Put it in an ice cube tray (filled with water), and immediately put it in the freezer. Later, take the ice cube out, and let it thaw in a bowl. If the bug moves... eat it.

Some insects, such as the Grylloblattaria, have a limited ability to survive freezing. Some insects are aquatic. Since I put insects in the freezer to kill them on a regular basis, you're full of it.

 

[Nymphalidae]

I totally agree.
BTW, on the arguement about the animal all fitting, you don't need two of every animal, only two of every species. In other words, you need two canines, not two wolves and two foxes and two dogs and so on.

Wolves, foxes, and domestic dogs are all different species. In fact, I think not all wolves and foxes are of the same species.

 

[tocis]

whoa, there's really people that believe the story of Noah is literally true..

Amazing, ain't it?

But then, unless they claim that they can prove it all scientifically, that's basically okay. After all, if an omnipotent entity could exist, then making such a Flood happen would be mere child's play for it.

Of course the question of omnipotence is in and of itself a serious problem... but that would be another thread.