"Teaching others a lesson"

[psychedelicist]

Here's a complicated situation that I can't decide was moral or not. I personally feel no guilt but I've had people who know me tell me they thought it was wrong to do. So here goes:

A while back, a lady friend of mine, we'll call her V, and my best friend J were at a club. Some guy comes up to her and starts hitting on her. She tells him to get lost, so angrily he leaves her alone, but does not actually go away. At points in the night J notices him acting a little strange around her stuff, so now he goes and tells him to get lost. This time he does. Turns out, while she was off in the bathroom or wherever, he has given her a large amount of some date rape drug (I can't remember the name, it wasn't ketamine or rufies though). He puts way too much in and she ends up getting taken to the hospital.

At this point Me and J are mad enough to hunt him down. Knowing the right people to talk to, we quickly learn all the information we need to about him, his name, address, phone number, who he bought the drug from, etc. We leave a message on his cell phone which was basically "We will leave you alone this time but if you do anything like that again, you'll pay". We REALLY wanted to just track him down and beat his ass for doing something like that, but V asks us to please not.

Upon keeping in touch with his dealer (who is under the impression that we are his friends), we find out that he has ignored our message, bought more date rape drugs, and is planning to use them. At this point we can't contain ourselves. We take 2 tire irons and climb into his civic and head for dallas. Upon reaching his house we tape pieces of paper over his lisence plates, so they can't identify us, knock on the door, once again pretending to be his friends if his mom should answer or something. We have the irons hidden in our back pockets. His mom does answer and says that he is in downtown somewhere. Great, so now we get to drive all around downtown to find him (we didn't really want to do this at his house anyways, it would be much harder to get away).

After suprisingly little time we find him walking around west end. We get out and approach him from the other side of the street, one on each side. After a little talking, he confesses, and asks us who we are. We tell him we are the friends of the girl he tried to drug at the club, and he immediately knows what is about to happen. He spins around to face J just as he takes out his tire iron and hits him hard right on the jaw. Stunned, he kind of spins around to face me, at which point I take out mine and hit him too. As he drops you can tell that we definitely screwed up his jaw pretty good. We don't stay to beat him up further; we don't want to end up killing him or sending him into intensive care. We get back in the car, drive a ways, then find a pay phone and call an ambulance to pick him up, and then head back home.

What is your opinion on what we did? I can see how some people would say it's wrong that we beat him up, but I don't see how letting him try and rape some other girl would be better. We made sure we didn't beat him too badly, just enough to get the message across. (we also didn't want a possible murder on our hands. Police in dallas would probably just chalk this up to gang violence, but if we actually killed him we definitely would have been caught). Suprisingly when she heard he was planning to try again, V didn't have a problem with it, which would probably have been the only thing that would make me feel bad about doing it. We also made sure to call an ambulance for him, for whatever that might be worth.

Hopefully none of you will report this post to the police or anything, it was over a year ago as well so I figure it might be safe to talk about it.

 

[levi501]

No you did nothing wrong. I hope you don't get caught.

The only thing better would be to try to determine other ways to deter him. For instance getting his dealer arrested. The guy sounds like an opportunist, which is different then a violent rape offender. The best way to deter him is to beat him up, threaten him and take away the availability of the drug.

*edit - or you could supply people he knows with evidence that he purchases date rape drugs... like his mother... boss... etc.

 

[Lycaenidae]

It sounds like he got what he had coming.

 

[psychedelicist]

There's something else I forgot to add: he has definitely done this a lot before. Rapists like to talk to each other about their exploits, and apparently we were able to pull off acting like we were like that ourselves, he trusted us enough to tell us all about the exploits of him and his friends... he also practically bragged about previous times people had confronted them about it, and they managed to escape punishment. I doubt much would deter him if he had been confronted about it from his angry victim's friends in the past.

Unfortunately, turning him in for those past offenses probably wouldn't help. We had used numerous illegal tactics to find out this information, and it had happened a while back anyways. A lawyer would be out of his mind to take a rape case like that, I've talked to (trustworty) cops enough to know that. the only other option we could find is to take it into our own hands, as noble and heroic as I'm sure it sounds, we're not exactly bragging about what we did either.

Luckily a lawyer would be insane to try and take the rapist's assault case to court as well, being that he has no information on us or even seen our faces, or lisences plate. That and we both have cops and military recruiters that will affirm that the two of us have alibis, I don't think I have much to worry about unless the dealer or rapist comes back to find us.

 

[BrownCoat]

Get him arrested for possession.

 

[Catherineanne]

Hopefully none of you will report this post to the police or anything, it was over a year ago as well so I figure it might be safe to talk about it.

You are asking our views? In my view what he did was indefensible, but what you did was also wrong, and two wrongs do not make a right; they make for anarchy.

If you live in a country without a legal system, without a police force, without any means of legal redress, even then this behaviour would be wrong. With all those things available to you, which you chose to ignore, you took the law into your own hands and acted violently against this man. You rationalise this by saying that a prosecution would never have happened, but you cannot know this. You never even tried. Truth is, you wanted to beat him up, and you did. It was premeditated, it was brutal, and it was totally indefensible.

And do you know what is the most revolting thing of all? You have come here to boast about this, and to hear other people tell you how great this was. Well, I am telling you, anyone who says that is wrong. And you know it. Even if a thousand people tell you well done, and I am the only one who says this is sick behaviour, you will know that I am right. Because your conscience is not dead, and it knows full well.

Quite frankly, I can't see a great deal to choose between you and your victim. He hurt people; you hurt him. That is what your action has done; it has brought you down to this man's level. Make no mistake; you have given him great power; the power to corrupt you and turn you into a criminal.

If you were my son, and told me this story, I would insist on you going to the police to tell them what you have done. If you refused, I would disown you.

 

[rebelEnigma]

I've heard some stories about people who WANTED to beat the daylights out of a guy who wronged their wife/girlfriend/friend, but I scarcely heard about a person who actually did do it.

I'm tempted to say "Way to go," but I'm not so sure this aligns with Jesus' "forgive and pray for your enemies." So I'm kind-of mixed when it comes to this. Obviously he deserved what he got...but....

 

[Cerberus~]

I'ld have probably done worse, so I compliment both your strength to act, and you wisdom to restrain youself. Way to go, bro.

 

[psychedelicist]

If you live in a country without a legal system, without a police force, without any means of legal redress, even then this behaviour would be wrong. With all those things available to you, which you chose to ignore, you took the law into your own hands and acted violently against this man. You rationalise this by saying that a prosecution would never have happened, but you cannot know this. You never even tried. Truth is, you wanted to beat him up, and you did. It was premeditated, it was brutal, and it was totally indefensible.

You're probably right, I'm probably just trying to justify my rage at him almost raping someone who is VERY close to me. I have seen enouhg and talked to enough lawyers and cops to know that prosecution would never fly. I don't think the authorities would have cared much anyways being that this time he did not actually rape anyone and has never been arrested or charged with rape before.

In the end it comes down to the fact that some people will not listen to reason, only money and power. Perhaps in a perfect world you could dissuade a rapist with words, but this is not the case in society, at least not in the dallas area. The wannabee thugs and badasses will only listen to money and power, as I have said, and money is a temporary fix at best. The only other way I can see to get him to stop is through power. We gave him warning beforehand, but he ignored it.

But this is all probably just more justifications.

Quite frankly, I can't see a great deal to choose between you. That is what your action has done; it has brought you down to this man's level.

That's assuming anyone was ever 'above' or 'below' this man anyways? From the way you make it sound, we're all equal no matter what we do, so I would never have been above him in the first place. In fact, when it's put that way, it seems like neither me nor the rapist have anything to justify at all. But maybe I'm misinterpreting.

If you were my son, and told me this story, I would insist on you going to the police to tell them what you have done. If you refused, I would disown you.

Glad I'm not your son, I wouldn't want to hurt you so badly by making you disown me. But are you sure that by disowning me you are not just sinking to my level? (kidding, just couldn't resist)

 

[Druweid]

Here's a complicated situation that I can't decide was moral or not. I personally feel no guilt but I've had people who know me tell me they thought it was wrong to do.

My opinion is that it most certainly was morally wrong, as well as ethically wrong, and entirely illegal.

Which, by the way, has little or no bearing as to whether or not it should have been done, or if you should feel any remorse. I do believe, right or wrong, sometimes, a man just needs a beating.

The reason I believe it was not moral, is because you covered up the license plate of your friends car. I have always been of a mind that if you are going to take matters into your own hands, there should be no concern with getting caught. You should be willing to accept the consequences of your actions.

One thing I disagree with, specifically, is the use of tire irons. Having them with you as a protective measure is fine, but a bare fist is just oh, so much more personal. Not to mention, the difference between assault, and assault with a deadly weapon.

There is also something to be said for having him arrested and charged with date rape, where and when possible. Not so much for the sentence he may or may not receive, but once convicted of a sex crime, he becomes a charter member of the S.O.D.B. (Sex Offenders Database). Then, under Megan's Law, you can legally distrubute flyers to all the local bars, clubs, etc. with his picture and offenses. Might also be a good idea to check and see if this guy is already a member of SODB.

As far as remorse? If you could honestly say, to yourself as well as your friends, that you could have handled it better, I think that would suffice.

 

[Druweid]

I don't think I have much to worry about unless the dealer or rapist comes back to find us.

I wouldn't say that was likely. Chances are, the rapist is a coward. As far as the dealer, in my experience, unless it deals directly with their business or possibility of being caught, they do everything they can to keep a low profile.

Just my thoughts.

 

[psychedelicist]

The reason I believe it was not moral, is because you covered up the license plate of your friends car. I have always been of a mind that if you are going to take matters into your own hands, there should be no concern with getting caught. You should be willing to accept the consequences of your actions.

Hmm. Perhaps, but if I get sent to prison while he roams free, what, in his mind, is going to stop him from continuing? If he knows we're still out there and possibly keeping tabs on him, he's much less likely to do anything than he would be if he knew we were in jail or on probation.

One thing I disagree with, specifically, is the use of tire irons. Having them with you as a protective measure is fine, but a bare fist is just oh, so much more personal. Not to mention, the difference between assault, and assault with a deadly weapon.

Personal, yes, but not nearly as quick or effective. With fists we ahve the problem that he would be able to fight back, and the fight could drag out till someone saw us. We just needed a way to do it and get it over with and get out of there.

There is also something to be said for having him arrested and charged with date rape, where and when possible. Not so much for the sentence he may or may not receive, but once convicted of a sex crime, he becomes a charter member of the S.O.D.B. (Sex Offenders Database). Then, under Megan's Law, you can legally distrubute flyers to all the local bars, clubs, etc. with his picture and offenses. Might also be a good idea to check and see if this guy is already a member of SODB.

We checked many different places, like I said we have many friends that can look stuff like this up, even when not legally accessible, which is what I meant when I said that we had to do a lot of illegal stuff to pull this off safely.

As far as remorse? If you could honestly say, to yourself as well as your friends, that you could have handled it better, I think that would suffice.

I think with a bit more planning, yes, like you said the irons might have been a bad idea, etc. We were in a bit of a hurry, though, since we knew he had bought more date rape drugs. Thinking about it, this would have probably given us till friday, when the clubs open, and we just found out late wednesday night. We just wanted to make sure that he also didn't try date raping again before we could ge tto him, and truth be told we were probably eager to bludgeon him a bit anyways... so yes, I'm positive I could have thought it out better

 

[Druweid]

Hmm. Perhaps, but if I get sent to prison while he roams free, what, in his mind, is going to stop him from continuing? If he knows we're still out there and possibly keeping tabs on him, he's much less likely to do anything than he would be if he knew we were in jail or on probation.

Good point. For myself, though, I do things how I do them because that's who I am.

We checked many different places, like I said we have many friends that can look stuff like this up, even when not legally accessible, which is what I meant when I said that we had to do a lot of illegal stuff to pull this off safely.

Understood, but keep in mind for the future; unless a law official asks you to do so, how you obtain information is of little or no concern to the courts. Search and seizure laws only apply to members of law enforcement. Pass the information along anonymously.

... so yes, I'm positive I could have thought it out better

Good. And if you're ever in NH or MA and need a hand, let me know.

 

[In A Perfect World]

I would have the mods delete this thread, I've posted stuff online and had it used as blackmail before. Wouldn't want the same to happen to you.

 

[psychedelicist]

I would have the mods delete this thread, I've posted stuff online and had it used as blackmail before. Wouldn't want the same to happen to you.

No way after reading this thread people would have the guts to blackmail me

Seriously though, they can use it if they want. Like I said, it happened so long ago, we both have solid alibi's that my recruiter would testify for. Any lawyer insane enough to take on an old case with no evidence based on only a post in a forum would have his work cut out for him.

Also, don't using anonymous proxies, like I do, make it harder for them to find you based on your IP address? I'm actually not fully certain what anonymous proxies do, all I know is they're 'more secure' and I'm used to using them in school to get around firewalls.

But no doubt if there's stuff in my post that I can be blackmailed for, it will be deleted due to those illegal activities anyways.

 

[Catherineanne]

Glad I'm not your son, I wouldn't want to hurt you so badly by making you disown me. But are you sure that by disowning me you are not just sinking to my level? (kidding, just couldn't resist)

By disowning you I would be showing you that there is a difference between right and wrong, and that you stepped over that line. Even for my own child I would not become an accessory after the fact, and would encourage you to go to the police, as I believe you should do now.

You claim to love your friend. I am telling you now there is no love (save God's) greater than that of a mother for her child, but I would not accept this behaviour from any child of mine. Disowning you in these circumstances would not hurt at all. What would hurt would be having an unrepentant thug for a son, and standing by condoning thuggish behaviour.

You pretend to not believe that there are levels of behaviour, but that is just disingenuous. If there are not, why did you object to the use of a date rape drug? If we are all the same, why are we all not using them? Why are we all not going around beating people up for the hell of it, and then boasting about it?

 

[Catherineanne]

Any lawyer insane enough to take on an old case with no evidence based on only a post in a forum would have his work cut out for him.

Fortunately, God does not need any of that. And unfortunately for you, neither does your conscience. Legal redress is not the only punishment, nor the worst, by any means.

You do realise that this is going to haunt you for years to come? Do you see this episode over and over? Do you dream about it? Do you see cars or situations which bring it back, so that it happens again, before your eyes?

You are too young to be able to do this and not suffer the emotional impact from it.

 

[AtheistPerson]

The old cyanide in the drink bit usually works. Remember all sin is equal and dont forget that they are also forgiven thanks to Jesus being sacrificed on the cross!

 

[In A Perfect World]

You do realise that this is going to haunt you for years to come? Do you see this episode over and over? Do you dream about it? Do you see cars or situations which bring it back, so that it happens again, before your eyes?

You are too young to be able to do this and not suffer the emotional impact from it.

I don't think he is going to feel real guilty about this. Usually when people are convinced they did the right thing, they don't feel guilty. And he didn't kill anyone, so he has the comfort of knowing this guy is probably going to realize he is the scum of the earth and that he deserved it.

And I say this on a neutral basis, i'm not taking sides.

 

[psychedelicist]

By disowning you I would be showing you that there is a difference between right and wrong, and that you stepped over that line. Even for my own child I would not become an accessory after the fact, and would encourage you to go to the police, as I believe you should do now.

And how do you know that what I did crossed the line and you disowning me did not? All you have shown me is that your idea of where the line is is different than mine. Pointing to the bible or your religion won't prove anything, I could just as easily use my own religion to justify my actions.

You claim to love your friend. I am telling you now there is no love (save God's) greater than that of a mother for her child, but I would not accept this behaviour from any child of mine. Disowning you in these circumstances would not hurt at all. What would hurt would be having an unrepentant thug for a son, and standing by condoning thuggish behaviour.

Wonderful sentiments. If you think me an unrepentant thug for doing this that's fine. I don't 'like' what I did any more than you did, but I felt it to be necessary. I certainly don't go around beating the hell out of anyone for no reason at all, only if it's the only other option I can see to truly do what I think should be done. If that makes me a thug, so be it.

You pretend to not believe that there are levels of behaviour, but that is just disingenuous. If there are not, why did you object to the use of a date rape drug? If we are all the same, why are we all not using them? Why are we all not going around beating people up for the hell of it, and then boasting about it?

to be fair, I said it was your post that came off that way, I was not arguing the point. But being a nihilist (in the neitzchean zense), I suppose this is what I more or less believe anyways, so I will humor you. No, there are no different 'levels' to behavior. He wanted something (to go around raping women) and I wanted something (for him to not rape any more women). We couldn't both have what we wanted. We both blame each other and think that we are the good guys or victims or whatever of the circumstance. But in the end, it comes down to what you want and what you're gonna do to get it. Just because I believe this doesn't mean I'm one of those people who will go out of his way to get everything he wants, I do have my morals and constraints. But we can't all have what we want, and I suppose it comes down to the bigger dog getting the bone. I'm not happy about this, but it's a fact.

As a self justification, I feel it necessary to point out that once again, I'm not power obsessed, by goals are not anything that would normally provoke me to have to be violent or to take from others, or do things to others. But sometimes, unfortunately, it does come down to that, and better to be prepared for these situations to arise, which thwy almost always will.