Teaching kids about hell?

[Emprism]

I read the following at Answers in Genesis in an article about atheist camps. (Unfortunately my post count doesn't allow me to link to external sites yet)

We see the Lord’s hand of blessing every day at AiG. Here is a recent, wonderful testimony about a young girl and her mother:

The AiG conference [near Knoxville] was wonderful. Ken [said] one book in particular, A is for Adam, had more children come to know Jesus than any other [AiG book]. My ears perked up and I bought the book.
My 4 1/2 year [old] daughter and I read the book every day for a week. One day she looked up at me with tears in her eyes and said she didn’t want to go to hell. She said she wanted to be where Jesus—and where her mommy and daddy—was going to be.
My little girl bowed her head and prayed to ask Jesus into her heart that day. It was glorious. I thank God for how you have touched our lives.” –G.D., Knoxville, TN

The girl was only 4 years old, and she's already afraid of hell and accepting Jesus into her heart...

Having gone through religious indoctrination, I can attest to the damage it does. I know for a fact that many who have deconverted from their childhood faith suffered negative psychological effects from those indoctrinations, especially hell-fire doctrines.

I'm fine now, but I remember much uneasiness and even depression whenever I doubted belief in God and in Christ. I "accepted Jesus" countless times throughout my childhood because I was afraid of hell. Even as an adult, my deconversion from theism took over a year because quite honestly it made me sick thinking about it, as the hell fear had been ingrained in me. Fear is undoubtedly a motivator, but is it appropriate to use it as a motivator, especially with regards to accepting and worshipping a "perfect loving being"?

Would making the teaching that kids are going to suffer eternal torture for doubting Christ Jesus equivalent to child abuse be an infringement of religious freedoms? Given that hell doctrines are a central tenet of most believers of the 2 major religions, I'm guessing the answer is yes. But if the situation was reversed and atheists were repeatedly threatening and frightening their children with talk of unending torture, I can't help but think there would be a double standard. I have no evidence to back that up, as of now I'm just reacting to my disgust at what I read while browsing AiG.

 

[katautumn]

Would making the teaching that kids are going to suffer eternal torture for doubting Christ Jesus equivalent to child abuse be an infringement of religious freedoms?

Yes. Absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt. Don't forget that most Christians find the aspect of hell to be an integral part of pre-salvation doctrine. All sets of belief have some form of action and reaction dogma. Is it child abuse for a Wiccan parent to tell their child that if they work magic for bad and not good that it will come back on them threefold (the law of Karma)?

But if the situation was reversed and atheists were repeatedly threatening and frightening their children with talk of unending torture, I can't help but think there would be a double standard.

If a parent was threatening their children with talk of unending torture, wouldn't that sort of disqualify them from being Atheists?

Don't forget that oftentimes, fear is employed in conjunction with discipline. Spankings, threats to revoke privileges, "don't swallow your gum because it will stay in your stomach for seven years", "don't bite your fingernails because they will poke holes in your intestines", negative consequences for disobedience, etc. Parents who believe in an eternal resting place (heaven or hell) obviously don't want to believe their children will spend eternity in hell and will take measures to help prevent this (reading the Bible with them, taking them to church, talking about Jesus and heaven and hell, etc.). Is the concept of hellfire and brimstone a logical one? That's honestly not up to me to decide. I don't adhere to such beliefs, but I don't think it's abusive for parents who do to share these beliefs with their children.

I guess it's like anything else. Just as I don't view spanking as universally abusive, there are parents who take it too far and cross that threshold over into abuse. I don't think talking to children about heaven and hell is abusive, but I don't think it's right if parents are constantly barking at their children, "stop doing that! Do you want to spend eternity in hell?"

 

[Savage78]

I read the following at Answers in Genesis in an article about atheist camps. (Unfortunately my post count doesn't allow me to link to external sites yet)



The girl was only 4 years old, and she's already afraid of hell and accepting Jesus into her heart...

Having gone through religious indoctrination, I can attest to the damage it does. I know for a fact that many who have deconverted from their childhood faith suffered negative psychological effects from those indoctrinations, especially hell-fire doctrines.

I'm fine now, but I remember much uneasiness and even depression whenever I doubted belief in God and in Christ. I "accepted Jesus" countless times throughout my childhood because I was afraid of hell. Even as an adult, my deconversion from theism took over a year because quite honestly it made me sick thinking about it, as the hell fear had been ingrained in me. Fear is undoubtedly a motivator, but is it appropriate to use it as a motivator, especially with regards to accepting and worshipping a "perfect loving being"

Would making the teaching that kids are going to suffer eternal torture for doubting Christ Jesus equivalent to child abuse be an infringement of religious freedoms? Given that hell doctrines are a central tenet of most believers of the 2 major religions, I'm guessing the answer is yes. But if the situation was reversed and atheists were repeatedly threatening and frightening their children with talk of unending torture, I can't help but think there would be a double standard. I have no evidence to back that up, as of now I'm just reacting to my disgust at what I read while browsing AiG.

Thats how religiopn works for some. I have a theory that runs like this:

There were the good jews and there were the bad jews. The good jews were hard working and obedient and never did anything wrong and were poor. The bad jews were lazy and evil and were rich (ill gotten gain). So the good jews thought why should I be good if the bad people get everything. Enter the heaven and hell concept...bad people may have good things now...but later on will get what they deserve, and good people will suffer now but get what they deserve later on.

A few years later same scenario, good people poor, bad people rich....they think again why should i do good things when the bad people just take what they want. So the leaders had to find a way to console the people so they said your reward is after death. Now to a much more scientifially ignorant people that was very plausible.

Then the indoctrination began, an indoctrination so severe that religion jas managed to survive this long. Alot of people know the truth in there hearts about religious practice (not whether or notthere is a god that cannot ever be known)...yet they are merely fearful of the repurcussions that were drummed into there heads from the time when there minds were very innocent and never take the time as an adult to really get into what there God concept is all about.

I am afraid that this is a very common story.

 

[JohnLocke]

KatAutumn,

As much as I enjoy your posts and value your opinions, you are incorrect on your point on religious freedom, at least in the United States.

Unemancipated minors have no religious rights superior to their parents. Thus if a child wishes to be a Buddhist, but the parent wishes the child to be a Baptist; the child has at most 2 legal choices: 1) become legally emancipated from his/her parents, becoming a legal adult [difficult to do as you are required to demonstrate that you can support yourself, generally, and also as a legal minor you are unable to bring the suit yourself, you'd need a guardian ad litem] or 2) submit to the will of your parents.

That said, there have been times when courts have found that the imposition or exercise of religious belief has been found to be child abuse/neglect (often these cases involve the parent refuses medical treatment for one reason or another, but sometimes physical abuse wrapped in religious clothing has been found to be child abuse [admittedly though it requires, in my estimation, an even higher level of medical damage to the child]).

Can abuse be garbed in religious trappings? Absolutely. Can you prove it in a court of law? Possibly. Are all religious teachings that present frightful aspects inherent abusive? No.

Unfortunately, my dear OP, it's gonna be a judgment call wherever you take it. I am sorry you had such a negative experience and hope that you have been relieved of your fear. Deprocessing from cult and cult-like experiences is a difficult and painful process, in my experience, and I applaud your courage in persevering.

Here's my glass to better days!

Cheers

 

[Rorshack]

The importance of a hell of eternal torment in to the evangelism of Christianity and Islam is very odd.
There is no Hell of eternal torment in the Hebrew Scriptures. There is no Heaven of eternal bliss either. Teaching children a frightening lie is indeed child abuse.

 

[justanobserver]

this may get deleted due to what it referances but I really need to share this story here of something that happened long ago. am gonna keep this in the "3rd person" - take it as you will:

there is this man and this woman long ago back in the mid 1980s - married, both christians belonging to a very fundalmental strict holiness Oneness pentectostal organization.

Time passes, things happen, he slips away and eventually totally leaves church and god, and the marriage eventually comes apart. separation, then divorce, etc. he leaves area and re-enlists back in the service and ships out of area. (pays his support, calls kids, etc etc etc - does his "dad" thing as much as possible)

2 kids are involved here. long story short - the guy would call his 10 yr old son and 6 yr old daughter to see if they want to come down to visit for the summer, the kids would get reminded by their mother that they are only saved in relation to the parent - if they die under their mom's care - they go to heaven because mom is a christian and saved. (the church preached/preaches children saved depending on the parents until they reach age of accountability.)

if they die while at their sinner backslidden dad's house, they will go to hell.

guess what happens....

This guy calls his kids to see if they want to come down where he is living (stationed in southern CA - Army back then) and the son is hedging, dodging, not wanting to answer. the daughter gets on the phone and is crying, as in almost hysterical. this guy finally gets her to tell him why is she crying and whats wrong? she sais "I dont want to go to hell!! she screamed this into the guy's ear on the phone. he asked her why would she go to hell?? She told this guy that according to her mommie and the church that if she died nomatter how or why while under my control and since he was not a christian, she would go to hell and burn.

the kids eventually came down to se their dad but that incident kinda left a shadow (this was mid/late 1980s) and it would happen again with further requests to come see their dad in future visits.

so, how this factors in as teaching kids about hell being abuse?? Well, I can only imagine how this guy felt then (and still does although the kids are grown and in their 20s and want nothing to do with christianity) about how folks will use the specter of hell with small children and use it like the boogie man to keep them in line or use in personal games.

Yes, I agree, it is emotional/mental abuse.

 

[tgg]

Yes, it is child abuse.

 

[StartToday]

It's child abuse, but it's a parent's right to use religion to scare the mess out of their kids. Hell is why I clung to belief, and its why I don't believe now- because it seems like hell is just a way to get people to ignore all of the other gaping holes in Christianity, and just accept it.

I didn't realise how far people took it until I seen Jesus Camp. Those people should be ashamed of themselves for messing up their own religion. They teach their kids to love Jesus because otherwise they will go to hell. If Jesus loves you so much, why would he send you to hell for using the powers of reason that God supposedly gave us?

 

[lemmings]

Mental abuse leaves a far larger scar on a child than physical abuse could ever hope for, unfortunately the law is far more lenient with this form of abuse.

 

[katautumn]

I guess what I meant by infringement upon religious freedom was simply this - requesting that a parent have their child medically tended to even though it's against their religious beliefs is one thing; however, if we had CPS remove every kid that has been or is taught about hell or some form of eternal suffering as the result of sin then there would be a huge mess of kids being shuffled from state homes to foster homes.

I would agree that trying to "beat the demons" out of a hyperactive child or refusing to get medical treatment because of someone's religious beliefs is abusive toward the child. Teaching children something that is an integral part of your faith is not abusive.

Now, I know there are many deconverts out there who hate religion because their parents made them go to church every Sunday, threatened them with hellfire and damnation and refused to let them buy rock and roll albums; however, personal biases and bitterness from past experiences shouldn't dictate what we consider abuse. There are just as many adults who became well-rounded citizens and will thank their parents for teaching them about heaven and hell and introducing Christ to them as there are kids who claim they are emotionally scarred because their parents taught them about hell.

IMHO, the teaching of hell, itself, is not in any way, shape or form abusive. It's the occasional times where it goes hand in hand with abusive behaviors that it's a problem and the courts should intervene.

And you're right - unemancipated minors don't have religious freedom in America, but there are alot of freedoms they don't have. I don't think it's unfair that children are introduced to certain religions at their parents' discretion. When they become adults, they can choose for themselves which path they want to take. And some parents are more lenient than others. I am not religious and I do not intend to try and dictate what my son should or should not place his faith and beliefs in, if anything at all.

 

[tocis]

The girl was only 4 years old, and she's already afraid of hell and accepting Jesus into her heart...

Sickening.

Religious decisions should be made without any outside pressure. Teaching youngsters about hellfire is one Niflhel of a lot of pressure.

The ideal would be to answer any questions the children might have about religion but leave the decision what faith (if any) to follow totally to them, if possible they should wait with that decision until they're, say, 16 and already have gathered quite a lot of knowledge about the world they live in.

*sigh*

Ideals and the options to make them real...

 

[quatona]

I read the following at Answers in Genesis in an article about atheist camps. (Unfortunately my post count doesn't allow me to link to external sites yet)



The girl was only 4 years old, and she's already afraid of hell and accepting Jesus into her heart...

Having gone through religious indoctrination, I can attest to the damage it does. I know for a fact that many who have deconverted from their childhood faith suffered negative psychological effects from those indoctrinations, especially hell-fire doctrines.

I'm fine now, but I remember much uneasiness and even depression whenever I doubted belief in God and in Christ. I "accepted Jesus" countless times throughout my childhood because I was afraid of hell. Even as an adult, my deconversion from theism took over a year because quite honestly it made me sick thinking about it, as the hell fear had been ingrained in me. Fear is undoubtedly a motivator, but is it appropriate to use it as a motivator, especially with regards to accepting and worshipping a "perfect loving being"?

Would making the teaching that kids are going to suffer eternal torture for doubting Christ Jesus equivalent to child abuse be an infringement of religious freedoms? Given that hell doctrines are a central tenet of most believers of the 2 major religions, I'm guessing the answer is yes. But if the situation was reversed and atheists were repeatedly threatening and frightening their children with talk of unending torture, I can't help but think there would be a double standard. I have no evidence to back that up, as of now I'm just reacting to my disgust at what I read while browsing AiG.

I wouldn´t use a loaded term like "abuse", but there is no doubt that this behaviour harms the child.
We may not forgot that this hell nonsense is what those persons believe to be real themselves - so the term "threat" is inaccurate. They inform their children about the terms and conditions of their existence (as believed to be accurate by them), so I have to work from the assumption that they are acting from best intentions.

 

[Robinsegg]

What if the parent "shields" the child from the "hellfire" portion of the teachings about hell and teaches it is separation from God? If not speaking about torture, would those of you who said "yes, it's abuse" still think so, or change your minds?

Rachel

 

[StartToday]

Great idea robinsegg- that's exactly how I would do it if I were so inclined as to raise any kids I might have religiously.

 

[Robbie_James_Francis]

I don't think it is necessary to give hell a significant focus when raising trying to raise a child as a Christian or Muslim. So it would not seem to me to violate freedom of religion because, while hell is a definite tenet of these faiths, it is not required that they are taught or focused on in graphic detail. Given, then, that many children can go through intense fear of hell, and then later in life be stricken with guilt complexes, fear and self-hatred, it is certain child abuse and should be treated as such.

As someone who used to be a devout Catholic, I do not actually fear hell any more, and I don't really think I ever did to a huge extent. The only 'guilt' I felt in deconverting was that of possibly hurting and offending a loving God. I think it is much less harmful and more powerful to focus on the good in Christianity, the 'loving God because He loved us first.' Now I do not feel such guilt, because if God exists and is good, then all I have to do to return Her love is to love myself and love others, to try to live well and be happy and grateful. In short, all I need to do to return God's love (if She exists) is to be good.

I always wonder how anyone can square "God is love" and "I the Lord your God am a jealous god" with "Love is not jealous." If love is patient, kind, not jealous and its own reward, and God is love, then for all She cares I can worship Satan and live a life of debauchery and fornication. She will still love me, and despite the theological and philosophical wriggling of millions, loving someone and allowing them to go to hell absolutely are mutually exclusive. So if God is love, then there is no hell.

Smile. If God doesn't exist then hell doesn't exist. If God does exist then hell can't exist.

peace

 

[Ramona]

That's a tough one.

Of course nobody should teach their four-year-old that she is in danger of being tortured forever! That is utterly ridiculous, pure and simple. And yes, I do think it's emotional abuse.

I do plan on raising my kids in a loving Hicksite Quaker (contrary to popular belief, we are Christians) environment. We do not preach hellfire and eternal damnation. In fact, when the self-proclaimed better Christians preach fire and brimstone, we invite them to step away from the Hell they create for themselves and join the Christ within their own souls.

I guess what I am trying to say is, no, I would never threaten my child with eternal damnation in Hell. I will teach them to love our Lord and Savior, but I will not tell them that they are going to a place of fire and torture. It's terrible that anyone would threaten a four-year-old like that.

God bless,
Mumbai

 

[levi501]

Then the indoctrination began, an indoctrination so severe that religion jas managed to survive this long. Alot of people know the truth in there hearts about religious practice (not whether or notthere is a god that cannot ever be known)...yet they are merely fearful of the repurcussions that were drummed into there heads from the time when there minds were very innocent and never take the time as an adult to really get into what there God concept is all about.

I am afraid that this is a very common story.

This is exactly why I believe most xtians to be agnostic christians. They have no knowledge of god or Jesus but they choose to believe anyway. There is nothing wrong with this until they decide to indoctrinate their children into their religion. If they were actually honest with them they would admit they don't know for sure and let them make up their own minds. To assert that they do know is false witnessing. Of course this type of lying is justified to some because it falls under the blanket of religion.

 

[Emprism]

Then the indoctrination began, an indoctrination so severe that religion just managed to survive this long. A lot of people know the truth in there hearts about religious practice (not whether or not there is a god that cannot ever be known)...yet they are merely fearful of the repercussions that were drummed into there heads from the time when there minds were very innocent and never take the time as an adult to really get into what there God concept is all about.

Your theory sounds very plausible. It’s no coincidence that the two most prominent religions are the ones that profess belief in unending torture for unbelievers.

Unfortunately, my dear OP, it's gonna be a judgment call wherever you take it. I am sorry you had such a negative experience and hope that you have been relieved of your fear. Deprocessing from cult and cult-like experiences is a difficult and painful process, in my experience, and I applaud your courage in persevering.

Thank you very much for your kind words. It’s funny, but I never realized the severity of the religious indoctrination of children until recently. Although my own experiences with hell-fear were negative, it wasn’t the staple of my childhood in the least bit. My experiences growing up were very positive, and I was fortunate to have a loving and supportive family. It wasn’t that my parents ingrained the idea of hell in me, or even my church community, it was what I found when I read the bible. God-belief came natural to me, as all those who I love and trust believe it. But the fear of hell came on my own from understanding what it meant to doubt Jesus Christ. Since I never had evidence for Jesus Christ, doubting came naturally. Although I eventually I was motivated by fear and became a fundie. Thankfully I came to my sense after joining this forum and others a year and a half ago.

Anyway, I realized that if I could be persuaded that way by fear, and have such negative psychological effects, then I can’t imagine what other children who grow up in more restrictive homes must feel. I think my religious indoctrination and seclusion was paltry to what others experience, and that’s why I think it’s important that this issue be brought in the public fora.

Justanobserver, thank you for sharing your story. I hope you don’t mind that I quoted your story for reference of the very real dangers of religious indoctrination on another forum I’m a member of.

KatAutumn, I of course agree with you that removing children from an otherwise loving home is not a good idea. It’s not possible, practical, or even desirable to want to remove children from their otherwise happy homes because their parents are indoctrinating them with religion and it’s messing with their mind. But I think if the cultish nature of religious indoctrination (even if it’s a currently rather popular one) is damaging psychologically, it should be vocalized and made more public.

Now, I know there are many deconverts out there who hate religion because their parents made them go to church every Sunday, threatened them with hellfire and damnation and refused to let them buy rock and roll albums; however, personal biases and bitterness from past experiences shouldn't dictate what we consider abuse.

What should dictate what we consider abuse is whether the thing suspected of being abusive have very real negative consequences to the child or subject in question. In the case of religious indoctrination and the countless personal testimonies of individuals who had depression, anxiety, and other ill-effects from religious indoctrination, I’d most definitely call it emotional abuse. Browse around fundamentalists anonymous here "fundamentalists-anonymous.org" , and then tell me whether it’s abuse or not. While you’re at it, read the article here "infidels.org/library/modern/features/2000/kiefer1.html" on the strategies of Christian Fundamentalism.

There are just as many adults who became well-rounded citizens and will thank their parents for teaching them about heaven and hell and introducing Christ to them as there are kids who claim they are emotionally scarred because their parents taught them about hell.

It’s not a coincidence that the ones who no longer believe what they were taught as a child, are the ones who speak out against it and its damaging effects. Certainly it would be incongruent for someone to believe that hell exists, but that telling people about it in an effort to save their soul would be abusive. If you’ve ever spoken to a creationist, you know the mental gymnastics that one has to jump through to try and justify their belief in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. The numbers of people who feel happy within a religion does not justify the suffering that may and does happen in the name of said religion.

IMHO, the teaching of hell, itself, is not in any way, shape or form abusive. It's the occasional times where it goes hand in hand with abusive behaviors that it's a problem and the courts should intervene.

So in your opinion, telling a child that there exists a very real place of eternal torment, and that the child will be subjected to such a place should they doubt a deity with no evidence is not abuse? Isn’t threatening/frightening a child to try and keep them in line tantamount to emotional abuse? I’m under the impression that using fear and scare tactics as motivators, although effective, is not the best approach given the very real negative psychological damage that’s tied to it.

I wouldn´t use a loaded term like "abuse", but there is no doubt that this behaviour harms the child.

You’re right that the word “abuse” does evoke an emotional response, but mine as well call it what it is. Abuse, as I’m sure you know, means to treat in harmful, injurious, improper, or offensive way. So, why do you suppose this isn’t abuse?

We may not forgot that this hell nonsense is what those persons believe to be real themselves - so the term "threat" is inaccurate. They inform their children about the terms and conditions of their existence (as believed to be accurate by them), so I have to work from the assumption that they are acting from best intentions.

I believe many theists are not out to scare their children into believing things and have genuinely good intentions and the best interest of their child at heart. But what someone’s intentions are, and what their actions lead to, are two completely different things.

What if the parent "shields" the child from the "hellfire" portion of the teachings about hell and teaches it is separation from God? If not speaking about torture, would those of you who said "yes, it's abuse" still think so, or change your minds?

I understand what you’re saying, but I think the effect is the same. Children (myself included) usually believe what their family does because they love and trust them. When a child develops the assurance that God exists, he’ll hopefully look more into his beliefs. Speaking from personal experience, when I was told that hell was separation from God, I only had to look at the bible to see what that separation entailed. There are numerous passages that mention fire, brimstone, gnashing of teeth, etc. Of course, it didn’t help having a fundie older brother who had pamphlets lying around about how hell was a literal lake of eternal fire. So I guess I’m admitting that the crux of the issue is that when parents teach their kids to just accept the truth of propositions about God, hell, Jesus, etc. without examining them, there’s no telling where that proposition will lead them once they’ve accepted it as true. And many times, it will lead them down negative paths and they’ll teach these beliefs to their children and so-forth.

Thank you all for your contributions to this thread, I’m learning a lot! I hope I’m not coming across as too abrasive, but I’ve been studying the real world effects of faith based beliefs lately and I’m rather dismayed. I think the real abusive nature of religious indoctrination is the constriction on thinking, doubting, and questioning the religion. Although I’ve started this thread with respect to hell-fire doctrines because I believe the fear from these teachings is the main motivation to stay believing in the particular religious faiths that espouse such beliefs, any religious teachings that talk about absolute truths and “one true god” are inevitably damaging for social cohesiveness as no conciliation can be reached with respect to beliefs based on faith.

 

[quatona]

You’re right that the word “abuse” does evoke an emotional response, but mine as well call it what it is. Abuse, as I’m sure you know, means to treat in harmful, injurious, improper, or offensive way. So, why do you suppose this isn’t abuse?



I believe many theists are not out to scare their children into believing things and have genuinely good intentions and the best interest of their child at heart. But what someone’s intentions are, and what their actions lead to, are two completely different things.

Well, since I don´t believe in hell, I think it is self-suggesting that I feel that talking to children about hell is harming and injuring them.
On the other hand it´s self suggesting that a person who believes in hell considers it a necessary and useful information, the withholding of which can have harmful consequences.
I mean - what sort of answers did you expect from whom, realistically?

 

[feral]

I had my first dream about hell when I was four years old. My mom has it written in an old journal she kept back then. My parents weren't particularly religion-centered; we went to church sporadically, and every so often they'd get fired up about it and we'd have to pray for a while, but my main exposure to religious doctrine came from Sunday School which my parents always had me attend, even if they skipped church. I remember a book we had. One page was all orange -- flames -- and black -- shadows or silouettes of people with their arms outstretched and their mouths open. The text indicated they were sinners. I remember my Sunday School cheerfully announcing that they would burn because they didn't do what God wanted. A couple nights later, I had a dream about it; it probably stuck in my head because it was presented in such a dramatic way and completely devoid of human compassion. I had occasional dreams about hell until I was 16, the year my family finally let me stop attending church. Looking back, I can see why I never became a Christian. In all the time I'd gone, I'd never gotten saved, pretty much because of an intense hatred built up against God and the church regarding the inane hell concept. It wasn't so much outright disbelief as a refusal to side with something I found completely amoral. During my worst years I thought about hell sometimes, but by then I was so..."anti" it all that I was too stubborn to back down and preferred the concequence.

Was it abuse to be taught about hell? I don't think so in regards to being taught the concept. It's part of a doctrine, but like all subjects, there is a time and a place, and I don't think it's smart or correct to try and scare children into a decision that will affect their lives and future by telling some scary stories. The odd thing was that, for me at least, trying to scare me into being a good kid and believing in God to get me out of hell totally backfired. It's the single strongest reason I fought to get out of church, the first seed of doubt that ever got planted, the basis for the atheism and later agnosticism. To this day, the idea of hell is so incompatible with my belief system that I can't take another step towards Christianity, simply because the idea of a good god torturing people is so foreign to me and I can't relate that horrific act -- heck, terrorism -- with some deity that represents love. That's like saying Hitler is love, or something. I can accept much of the Bible, I believe in Jesus, I can pray -- but having been indoctrinated with hell theory from such a young age, I have nothing but contempt for a deity whose behavior and desires represent the worst of humanity and whose punishments are so much more trecherous than the "crime" of doubt and disbelief.