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I agree. So when you say that natural selection is "an a prioi (without prior)rejection of all divine causation in natural history", what do you mean? In one breath you appear to say that natural selection is anti-theistic because it posits that biodiversity is a result of natural (rather than supernatural) processes, but then you admit that even natural processes are governed by God.In case you missed it, God is the primary first cause and end to which all things are directed in the universe.
Good luck convincing Montalban that natural selection is real.
Yes, you apparently want to strongly avoid talking about something verifiable like the mechanisms of natural selection that you reject, but would rather lecture evolutionists about semantics for 21 pages.That's not the subject of this thread.
Given that natural selection is an observable and verifiable fact, I don't need to "believe" in it any more than I need to "believe" in the existence of rocks. And the phrase "survival of the fittest" doesn't form the basis of my understanding of natural selection, thanks.It's for teaching you about tautology, bad analogy, etc. that you rely on as the foundation stone for your beliefs
I agree. So when you say that natural selection is "an a prioi (without prior)rejection of all divine causation in natural history", what do you mean?
In one breath you appear to say that natural selection is anti-theistic because it posits that biodiversity is a result of natural (rather than supernatural) processes, but then you admit that even natural processes are governed by God.
Good luck convincing Montalban that natural selection is real.
That's not the subject of this thread.
It's for teaching you about tautology, bad analogy, etc. that you rely on as the foundation stone for your beliefs
I still don't see how the quotes you provided preclude the action of God in a natural process like evolution, unless you want to espouse a deistic and non-biblical theology of nature by arguing that God's actions are limited to the occasional miraculous intervention.Charles Darwin in the preface to On the Origin of Species credits Jean-Baptiste Lamarck with being the first man to propose that the doctrine that species, including man, are descended from other species. This, Darwin argues, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition.
I still don't see how the quotes you provided preclude the action of God in a natural process like evolution, unless you want to espouse a deistic and non-biblical theology of nature by arguing that God's actions are limited to the occasional miraculous intervention.
If you're going to argue that evolution is atheistic on that basis, I wonder if you also think the astronomical findings of Laplace (e.g., Laplace's equation, existence of black holes, notion of gravitational collapse) are atheistic, for when he was asked by Napoleon why his description of how the universe works made no mention of God, Laplace said "I have no need for that hypothesis."
It's really not a bad analogy, Darwin compares selective breeding to adaptive evolution in nature, thus natural selection. The thing is, unless you assume universal common ancestry, you are assumed to be incredulous (a nice way of saying ignorant). That's because it's a self evident, a priori fact.
The challenge is not teaching them fundamental meaning of words used but exposing their fallacious logic. It is surprisingly easy to do.
God isn't a subject for scientific investigation, so you aren't likely to find an appeal to His agency in any scientific paper, be it on evolution, chemistry, geology, physics, or whatever. That isn't to say that science is inherently atheistic, though; it isn't. Science is agnostic; it is incapable of commenting one way or another about the existence of God. It's up to you, as a Christian, to decide whether the findings of science are compatible with God's providence.Show me the scientific paper that allows room for God in evolution.
God isn't a subject for scientific investigation, so you aren't likely to find an appeal to His agency in any scientific paper, be it on evolution, chemistry, geology, physics, or whatever. That isn't to say that science is inherently atheistic, though; it isn't. Science is agnostic; it is incapable of commenting one way or another about the existence of God. It's up to you, as a Christian, to decide whether the findings of science are compatible with God's providence.
Right. That's what science does -- it proposes wholly natural mechanisms for what we observe in nature. Saying that the sky is blue because of the magical whims of Loki isn't science.I accept that. However, science has an explanation for the entire evolutionary process, in wholly naturalistic terms.
You'll never see that in a science paper because, again, the supernatural isn't amenable to the scientific method. Anyways, simply saying that something in nature is a particular way because God miraculously made it like that really doesn't further our understanding in any significant way. It's just as likely that we don't know how something happens simply because we lack knowledge.They don't go "Oh, we don't know how this happened... perhaps something super-natural was at work".
I still don't see how the quotes you provided preclude the action of God in a natural process like evolution, unless you want to espouse a deistic and non-biblical theology of nature by arguing that God's actions are limited to the occasional miraculous intervention.
If you're going to argue that evolution is atheistic on that basis, I wonder if you also think the astronomical findings of Laplace (e.g., Laplace's equation, existence of black holes, notion of gravitational collapse) are atheistic, for when he was asked by Napoleon why his description of how the universe works made no mention of God, Laplace said "I have no need for that hypothesis."
No, I don't see how describing something as a natural law precludes the action of God. The Bible tells us that God sustains all of nature -- He "sends the rain", "causes the sun to shine", and so forth. The Scriptures are clear that God's sustenance of nature is constant, even for those everyday, invariable constants that we consider "laws". This means that God is no more active when He is sustaining, say, Coulomb's law as when He is suspending it via "miraculous interposition". God's presence in nature is constant, whether it be explicitly stated in the formulation of a law (like natural selection) or not. This is also the reason why "the God hypothesis" cannot be subject to scientific verification -- no control experiment exists. Not unless you're a deist who believes that God involves Himself in the world only occasionally.I never said they were 'limited to occasional miraculous intervention', I am saying that reality includes God acting in time and space. So you just don't see how, ‘being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition.’ precludes the action of God?
I think you do...
No, I don't see how describing something as a natural law precludes the action of God. The Bible tells us that God sustains all of nature -- He "sends the rain", "causes the sun to shine", and so forth. The Scriptures are clear that God's sustenance of nature is constant, even for those everyday, invariable constants that we consider "laws". This means that God is no more active when He is sustaining, say, Coulomb's law as when He is suspending it via "miraculous interposition". God's presence in nature is constant, whether it be explicitly stated in the formulation of a law (like natural selection) or not. This is also the reason why "the God hypothesis" cannot be subject to scientific verification -- no control experiment exists. Not unless you're a deist who believes that God involves Himself in the world only occasionally.
Exactly, and therefore no place for God.Right. That's what science does -- it proposes wholly natural mechanisms for what we observe in nature. Saying that the sky is blue because of the magical whims of Loki isn't science.
I agreeYou'll never see that in a science paper because, again, the supernatural isn't amenable to the scientific method. Anyways, simply saying that something in nature is a particular way because God miraculously made it like that really doesn't further our understanding in any significant way. It's just as likely that we don't know how something happens simply because we lack knowledge.
I agree with this too. No place for God in evolutionYou also have to be careful that the above line of reasoning doesn't lead you down the path to god-of-the-gaps theology, whereby God's actions are limited to explaining only those things we don't understand.
So, having said that all, can you provide an example of an empirical test where we could falsify the hypothesis that God caused something to happen? Let's take the recent earthquake in Japan. What experiment could you perform to distinguish the idea that God caused it supernaturally vs. the "atheistic" idea that natural processes like plate tectonics caused it?God is never an hypothesis, God is a self existing and self evident fact. God as Creator does not give itself to empirical testing but the phenomenon of God creating or producing a miracle still qualifies as a cause. What is more experimental testing is not all of science anyway and universal common descent is not a testable hypothesis either. When it comes to natural history the rules are applied differently and I think you know that.
When you may not infer God as Creator or a divine purpose as an end to which things are directed as a dictate of science that I regard it as atheistic materialism. I think you do understand that natural selection is more then the survival of the fittest, it's also a naturalistic assumption.
Look, if you are satisfied that a naturalistic explanation is warranted then I have no problem with you. If, on the other hand, you want me to assume a naturalistic cause when God is clearly revealed, proclaimed and worshiped as Creator you are going to be disappointed.
Why not?Oh and by the way, natural selection is not, nor should it be considered, a 'natural law'.
I don't see how you can possibly agree with everything I just said and then conclude that there's no place for God in evolution. What I just said merits the exact opposite conclusion; God is not precluded from actively sustaining natural processes -- again, unless you're a deist.Exactly, and therefore no place for God.
I agree
I agree with this too. No place for God in evolution
I don't see how you can possibly agree with everything I just said and then conclude that there's no place for God in evolution. What I just said merits the exact opposite conclusion; God is not precluded from actively sustaining natural processes -- again, unless you're a deist.
Right, but that doesn't mean God cannot act through evolution (remember: science is agnostic; not atheistic). There's plenty of room for God in evolution, but at that point, you're making a leap of faith from the scientific theory of evolution to a theological belief in evolutionary creation.Evolution is a scientific theory. You said it yourself that science doesn't deal with God.
Right, but that doesn't mean God cannot act through evolution (remember: science is agnostic; not atheistic). There's plenty of room for God in evolution, but at that point, you're making a leap of faith from the scientific theory of evolution to a theological belief in evolutionary creation.
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