Teaching Evolution in the schools

LouisBooth · Aug 21, 2002

"Evolution is both a fact and a theory."

Noooo...its only a theory.

"I'm sorry Louis Booth got a bad teacher."

so does it seem, that pretty much everyone I know then too.

Brimshack · Aug 22, 2002

"X is Y"

Statements of this form are too vague to carry the issue. Theories and facts must be discussed in relation to one another. Anyone wishing to say that evolution is either fact or theory, and must be taught as one or the other is foisting a false dichotomy on the debate.

Hojo Hominygrits · Aug 22, 2002

I used to have a real issue with teaching Evolution in schools. I don't anymore because I really don't think it's important to salvation. I believe the Biblical story of Creation. I think God is infinitely more powerful than we could ever even comprehend so why not? I guess I'm just content letting God be God. I feel there are other things in life that are more important to think about.

For many years, I focused solely on this issue and used to think that if you didn't believe in creation, then you were not saved. How blind I was! I was so focused on the Creation vs. Evolution argument that I completely forgot the message of the Gospel. "Jesus plus nothing."

I believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life. Not Creation. And I'll teach my daughter about Creation. I'll let the public school system teach her about Evolution. I'll let her decide for herself which is true or not. That is all I can do. I guess from seeing both sides of the argument for so many years, there really isn't a concrete answer to the problem. None of us were there. We Christians have the Bible as our answer, the Evolutionist has his fossil record, etc. But it really all comes down to belief. So I don't bother with it anymore. Any of these issues aside from Christ and His eternal Grace are trivial IMO.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

crazyfingers · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Evolution is both a fact and a theory."

Noooo...its only a theory.

LouisBooth,

Have you read anything that was posted above? That species have changed and are changing has been demonstrated as fact.

The process by which that change has happened is the theory but that it has and is happening is fact.

St. Peter · Aug 22, 2002

It is my belief that you cannot teach biology without the foundation of evolution and genetics to build upon.  If the U.S. wants good doctors and biologists, we need to teach the fundamentals of evolution, genetics and the scientific method form early on, beginning in grade school.  Research into the human genetic heritage gives us clues as to the reasons we carry certain diseases and can help us find possible cures.  We can't do this if childen are not taught how evolution works.  If certain states outlaw the teaching of evolution, they are guaranteed nothing but poor test scores for students in biology and thus a shortage of good medical doctors.

Morat · Aug 22, 2002

  Here ya go. Here's another reason (building off St. Peter's):

  We should teach evolution in biology classes because virtually every University and College in America (and the World) expects biology majors to know and understand evolution at a basic level before entering college.

   Part of high school is prep work for college.

Smilin · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by crazyfingers

Evolution is both a fact and a theory.

It is fact that species evolve. It has been demonstrated to be fact.

How they evolve, the description of how it happens, the mechanism that the theory of evolution describes, is the theory.

NICE JOB CRAZY FINGERS!

Species HAVE BEEN shown to evolve through scientific

experimentation.  The simplest of examples?  Selective Reduction.

ANYONE can perform this one.  Take any bacterial culture,

shoot it with penicillin....keep the survivors.....re-cultivate,

the culture...repeat several times.  What you end up with

is a bacterial strain immune to penicillin. WHOOOLAAAHHH!!!

The bacteria have evolved to survive their environment.

What HASN'T been proven is species to species evolution.

i.e., Brimshack may wish that his children are taught that

his family descended from apes.  I'll teach mine that

they are the descendents of God's original couple..

Adam and Eve

Morat · Aug 22, 2002

  Sure it has. Talk Origins maintains not one, but two large lists of speciation events that have been observed in the last 100 or so years.

 

Smilin · Aug 22, 2002

Morat,

Observed species to species evolution?

Is there a website?
Is there a publication?

I'd be interested in reviewing the data

Smilin · Aug 22, 2002

Originally posted by Morat
  Here ya go. Here's another reason (building off St. Peter's):

  We should teach evolution in biology classes because virtually every University and College in America (and the World) expects biology majors to know and understand evolution at a basic level before entering college.

   Part of high school is prep work for college.

 

Morat:

Bad science should NEVER be taught high school or college.

Examples:

1. Scientists USED to teach the body was composed

of 4 elements...or 'humors' as you would have it...

ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR....WRONG!

2. The earth was flat? ERRRRRRRRRRRR WRONG AGAIN

3. The earth was the center of creation?....WRONG...

4.  Mental illnesses were the result of demonic possessions.

Think of the human travesties as a result of these beliefs?

A few examples of how 'the flavor of the month (century)'

science should not be taught.  Populare scientific theories

so proposterous make very humorous documentaries.

The theory that ALL current life emerged from the ocean?

LOL...I hope i'm around to see that one debunked!!!

Morat · Aug 22, 2002

Smilin: Sure. Full references for each one in the list are there. Here and here.

  As for your "funny" little post about why evolution shouldn't be taught. It's worth noting that 2, 3 and 4 were religious views, not scientific. Scientists were persecuted for claiming the opposite of one or two of them. Number 1 was a favorite of the Greeks, and not really seen in the last 2000 years.

  Do you have something a little better? Maybe that was actually taught? I mean, can't you even catch up to aether and phylogistion?

  Finally, the decision over what is and is not a valid and well-accepted theory in biology rests with biologists. They are, after all, the experts in that field. And, as you proved, considerably more knowledgable than you.

 

 

Smilin · Aug 22, 2002

LOL...testy testy...
Your assumptions on how knowledgeable
I am based upon one simple post
proves your emotions drive your conclusions
rather than the scientific process.

Try better bait...I'm not biting...LOL

Morat · Aug 22, 2002

  Smilin, if you don't know that speciation events have been observed over the last 100 years, then you have spent very little time studying evolution, and even less talking about it. I gave you two lists. You should thank me for increasing your knowledge and preventing you from making false claims in the future.

 

Smilin · Aug 22, 2002

Your observation is correct...SURPRISE..SURPRISE..SURPRISE...(best
Gomer Pyle impression)

I've spent MORE time studying PROVEABLE science...
rather than popular theories...

I do appreciate the links. That was why I asked.

As far as your assumption that science should
only be left to the scientists in their particular field...

oh where oh where would we be if it hadn't been
for that clerk named 'Einstein'????

Morat · Aug 22, 2002

  Add science fundamentals to the list of "Subjects Smilin needs to study". No scientific theory is provable. Proof is for math and logic.

  Feel free to name some, if you can, and their "proof".

  Einstein was a trained physicst who published his work in physics journals, and allowed his work to be reviewed by other experts in his field. Hence, Einstein did real science. To be akin to Creationists, Einstein would never have formulated his theory of relativity, but instead quote Newton out of context, and rail to the public at large.

  *shrug*

 

St. Peter · Aug 22, 2002

Smilin, while you may think that shielding your children from science education is your noble duty as a Christian, you will actually be doing them a great disservice.  If your children want to become doctors, nurses, or scientists, they will lack the education necessary to attain that goal.  I realize that you are extremely loyal to your beliefs, but why let your beliefs narrow your children's future opportunities?  No one is saying that you can't believe what you want.  But for the good of your children and for the good of our country, evolution needs to be taught in schools. 

Furthermore, the fact that humans and apes are evolutionarily connected is nothing to be ashamed of.  All living things on earth are connected to one another, which is precisely what makes being alive so special in the first place.  Respect for each other comes from both our relatedness and from appreciation for the unique situation we are in together as living creatures on Earth.

Learning about our origins doesn't mean you have to love God less.  You could look at it as using the gift of your intellect to better appreciate your life.  Not only will your children thank you for letting them learn the truth, you may someday be able to look at them with pride as they pick up a Nobel Prize or find a cure for cancer.    

Smilin · Aug 22, 2002

Math and experimentation don't drive science?

Mathematics is one FUNDAMENTAL tool towards
PROVEABLE science.

Bearing in mind ALL math models are flawed with
error...but some are useful.

Scientific theories can't be proven????
WHUUUUTTT????...
Add the SCIENTIFIC PROCESS to
your list of material to review.
(My 9 year old knows this one)

"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details." -- Albert Einstein

Einstein was working at a post in the Swiss patent office in Bern,
Switzerland when he published many of his theoretical physics
publications.

Would you like Fries with that order sir?

Smilin · Aug 22, 2002

St. Peter,

You've wrongfully assumed that I've sheltered my children
from the world. The exact opposite is the case. That's
all I'll say about my family in this discussion. With one
exception:

1. I became a mathmetician/scientist/engineer without
the 'theory of evolution'
2. My wife became a nurse without studying evolution.

One of God's greatest gifts is free will. We all have
the gift of thinking how we please. Only some of us
remain open minded about it all.

You quote: Furthermore, the fact that humans and apes are evolutionarily connected is nothing to be ashamed of. This has not been
proven to be fact and is still theory.

Morat · Aug 22, 2002

Math and experimentation don't drive science?

 

  Note the added word "experimentation", a word I never uttered. I said, and it's quite true, that proof is something that occurs in math and logic alone.

Mathematics is one FUNDAMENTAL tool towards
PROVEABLE science.

  No science is provable. Writing words in all caps doesn't change this. Math is a very useful and descriptive tool, I will admit.

Bearing in mind ALL math models are flawed with
error...but some are useful.

Scientific theories can't be proven????
WHUUUUTTT????...
Add the SCIENTIFIC PROCESS to
your list of material to review.
(My 9 year old knows this one)

  Can you name some? I asked you to, and you haven't. The scientific method is quite simple, and theories are the ultimate goal of science. You're not one of those people who think Laws are proven theories or that theories become fact when proved, are you?

  Because that's just more nonsense to discount.

  So please, name me some proved theories! I asked once already.

"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details." -- Albert Einstein

Einstein was working at a post in the Swiss patent office in Bern,
Switzerland when he published many of his theoretical physics
publications.

Would you like Fries with that order sir?

  Oh goodness! Does that mean he somehow forgot his physics education?  Dearie me! It looks like he got his degree two years prior to starting work there.

   Perhaps if you read what I wrote a little closer, you wouldn't look so ill-informed.

HazyRigby · Aug 22, 2002

"Creationists make it sound as though a ´theory´ is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night."--Issac Asimov

Teaching Evolution in the schools

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