Teach Them to Be Keeping ALL.

Leaf473 · Jul 11, 2022

HARK! said:
We need to look at verse 23:1 in context.

(CLV) Dt 23:1
Not one emasculated by crushing or having his penis cut off shall come into the assembly of Yahweh.

(CLV) Dt 23:2
Not bastard shall come into the assembly of Yahweh. Even the tenth generation ›from him may not come into the assembly of Yahweh.

(CLV) Dt 23:3
No Ammonite or Moabite shall come into the assembly of Yahweh. Even the tenth generation from them shall not come into the assembly of Yahweh for the eon,

Notice that this command pertains to an interval. Why would that be?

(CLV) Dt 23:4
on the score that they did not succor you with bread and with water along the main road when you came forth from Egypt and that they hired against you Balaam son of Beor, from Pethor, Aram-naharaim, to maledict you.

It pertains to an interval in relationship with Moses leaving Egypt.

Let's look a little deeper.

This is what YHWH tells Isaiah:

(CLV) Isa 56:3
Let not the son of the foreigner say, The proselyte who has joined himself to Yahweh, saying: Yahweh shall separate, yea separate me from on His people; And let not the eunuch say: Behold, I am a dry tree.

(CLV) Isa 56:4
For thus says Yahweh: To the eunuchs who are keeping My sabbaths, And who choose that in which I delight, And are holding fast to My covenant,

(CLV) Isa 56:5
I will give to them, in My house and within My walls, hand and name; Better than sons and daughters, I shall give to them a name eonian which shall not be cut off.

So was the Torah abolished during the time of Isaiah? Was the Torah abolished before Yahshua walked the earth? If this is so; what is this covenant that YHWH speaks of in verse 56:4? Did YHWH make a new lawless covenant with Isaiah? If this is so; why was Yahshua's ministry a ministry of repentance?

I suppose the interval of time would be for the "badness" to wear off or something. For a eunuch, it looks like that would be their lifetime.

I see that eunuchs are given hand and name in the house of the Lord. I don't know that that means that they can then enter the Assembly of the Lord. It sounds to me more like they won't be forgotten because they don't have descendants. Kind of like Daniel, who was probably a eunuch. We remember his name up through today.

And the bastards? Is there a prophecy related to them?

Leaf473 · Jul 11, 2022

HARK! said:
Sacrifice was never a substitution for repentance; and it is not to this day.

(CLV) Hb 10:26
For at our sinning voluntarily after obtaining the recognition of the truth, it is no longer leaving a sacrifice concerned with sins,

(CLV) Hb 10:27
but a certain fearful waiting for judging and fiery jealousy, about to be eating the hostile.

(CLV) Hb 10:28
Anyone repudiating Moses' law is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.

(CLV) Hb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant by which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?

These are very sobering verses.

I agree those verses are sobering.

Are you saying that prior to the cross, an Israelite who truly repented didn't need to sacrifice?

Leaf473 · Jul 11, 2022

expos4ever said:
Some of them are rather clearly in the past. The Law of Moses, for example:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Despite the desperate histrionics we see, and no doubt will continue to see, this is a clear, unambiguous declaration that the Law of Moses is behind us.

That's a good observation. I know a lot of people like to say that it means that we are not under the condemnation of the law, but we still have to keep it.

Galatians also says that Jesus was born under the law. I don't think he was born under condemnation, he never sinned. Being born under the law means obligated to keep the law imo.

BobRyan · Jul 11, 2022

HARK! said:
(CLV) Mt 28:19
Going, then, disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,

(CLV) Mt 28:20
teaching them to be keeping all, whatever I direct you. And lo! I am with you all the days till the conclusion of the eon! Amen!"

That is very different from "teach them to ignore all that I commanded you since my ministry on Earth was before the cross - and you are supposed to ignore all of that scripture and teaching."

Ok I see your point.

BobRyan · Jul 11, 2022

Leaf473 said:
I agree those verses are sobering.

Are you saying that prior to the cross, an Israelite who truly repented didn't need to sacrifice?

So then Dan 9 - has Daniel praying to God confessing his sins and the sins of Israel. No priest, no temple, no animal sacrifice.

In fact the temple was wiped out at that time.

Leaf473 · Jul 11, 2022

HARK! said:
What is faith?

I'm not talking about some abstract Greek Philosophical notion of what it might mean in the imagination.

I'm talking about in the concrete Hebrew mindset.

Let's take Paul's words, he who is not our Messiah, and harmonize them with the words of Messiah. Messiah's words are YHWH's words.

Wouldn't the Galatians have tended to use the Greek meaning of the word Faith?

I'm sure there were many Jews in that church, and many of the gentiles probably had synagogue experience. Were the synagogues at that time and place reading the scriptures in hebrew or Greek? Wouldn't most of the new people coming in have been Greek / gentile?

How does the Hebrew notion of faith differ from the Greek?

BobRyan · Jul 11, 2022

expos4ever said:
It appears that, in the face of such compelling evidence, all the naysayers can do is effectively to insist that all Biblical texts are to be taken literally. Let the reader judge how tenable that is.

I have never met anyone who claims that Jesus is a literal wooden door in John 10, or that Satan is literally an animal-dragon in Rev 12.

Where are these "people" that some folks say they are finding?? They apparently don't post on any forums I have seen, nor have I met them in churches.

Leaf473 · Jul 11, 2022

BobRyan said:
So then Dan 9 - has Daniel praying to God confessing his sins and the sins of Israel. No priest, no temple, no animal sacrifice.

In fact the temple was wiped out at that time.

Does the scripture say that all of their sins were forgiven based on Daniel's confession?

And... are you saying that prior to the cross, an Israelite who truly repented didn't need to sacrifice?

BobRyan · Jul 11, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Does the scripture say that all of their sins were forgiven based on Daniel's confession?

The scripture says that Daniel prayed for forgiveness of his sins and confessed also the sins of his people in Dan 9 without a priest, or sacrifice or even a temple in existence. Which is the answer to your question about prayers directly to God in the OT for forgiveness without any animal sacrifice. Also Samson prays and is given strength to overcome his enemies in the OT - without priest or sacrifice. All the prayers of Joseph during his years in prison would most certainly be without any animal sacrifice, and the Jews would not have been offering animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins during their 70 years of captivity in Babylon.

Heb 10:4 says that the animal sacrifices themselves forgave no sins -- not even one. So when Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ - before the cross even happens (in Matt 17 for example) that is full and complete forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ - realized in full for them - before Christ had even died.

Your argument amounts to "Father forgive them" prayer of Christ being of no value since He had not died yet... which is not accurate. The fact that Salvation ... the gospel ... has always worked the same way in all of time is what the Bible says.

Gal 1:6-9 only one Gospel
Gal 3:8 that Gospel was preached to Abraham
Heb 4:1-2 "Gospel preached to us just as it was to them"

Leaf473 · Jul 11, 2022

BobRyan said:
The scripture says that Daniel prayed for forgiveness of his sins and confessed also the sins of his people in Dan 9 without a priest, or sacrifice or even a temple in existence. Which the answer to your question about prayers directly to God in the OT for forgiveness without any animal sacrifice. Also Samson prays and is given strength to overcome his enemies in the OT - without priest or sacrifice. All the prayers of Joseph during his years in prison would most certainly be without any animal sacrifice, and the Jews would not have been offering animal sacrifices for the forgiveness of sins during their 70 years of captivity in Babylon.

Heb 10:4 says that the animal sacrifices themselves forgave no sins -- not even one. So when Moses and Elijah stand in glory with Christ - before the cross even happens (in Matt 17 for example) that is full and complete forgiveness of sins through the blood of Christ - realized in full for them - before Christ had even died.

Your argument amounts to "Father forgive them" prayer of Christ being of no value since He had not died yet... which is not accurate. The fact that Salvation ... the gospel ... has always worked the same way in all of time is what the Bible says.

Gal 1:6-9 only one Gospel
Gal 3:8 that Gospel was preached to Abraham
Heb 4:1-2 "Gospel preached to us just as it was to them"

Do the scriptures actually say that the sins of those people were forgiven? There is something in the scripture is about God overlooking sins, that's different from forgiving imo.

One person who comes to mind is Abraham. It does say that he was counted as righteous apart from any works.

HARK! · Jul 11, 2022

Leaf473 said:
True! But... When Jesus says Till all should be occurring, does he mean every single possible thing, or just all those things related to Torah and Heaven and Earth passing by?

Similar to the way someone who's preparing dinner might say Everything's ready.

If Jesus means every possible thing, that's basically saying that the law will never change. In that case, it would make more sense to say One iota or one serif will never be passing by from the law. Unless, of course, Jesus is being intentionally cryptic.

As of now we are to be IN Yahshua. Is there any sin IN Yahshua? Do you think that one can be in iN sin, while simultaneously being IN Yahshua? Sin is transgression of the Torah.

HARK! · Jul 11, 2022

Leaf473 said:
I agree those verses are sobering.

Are you saying that prior to the cross, an Israelite who truly repented didn't need to sacrifice?

That depends on how you define sacrifice. There is much confusion about that word; as in many translations, numerous Hebrew words, with different meanings, are al translated as "sacrerifice." We need to specify specifically what we are talking about, in order to properly study this out.

I've started a comprehensive study on this subject here. However, it is still a work in progress.:

YHWH's Table (Part 1)

HARK! · Jul 11, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Galatians also says that Jesus was born under the law. I don't think he was born under condemnation, he never sinned. Being born under the law means obligated to keep the law imo.

What is the meaning of the law for separation, and ritual purification after childbirth?

Leaf473 · Jul 11, 2022

HARK! said:
As of now we are to be IN Yahshua. Is there any sin IN Yahshua? Do you think that one can be in iN sin, while simultaneously being IN Yahshua? Sin is transgression of the Torah.

No, there is no sin in Jesus.

Can we sin and be in Jesus? Sure, James says we all stumble in many ways. It's what you do about the stumbling that counts imo.

I think a better translation is Sin is lawlessness or Sin is rebellion.

I'm certainly not advocating lawlessness or rebellion.

Leaf473 · Jul 11, 2022

HARK! said:
That depends on how you define sacrifice. There is much confusion about that word; as in many translations, numerous Hebrew words, with different meanings, are al translated as "sacrerifice." We need to specify specifically what we are talking about, in order to properly study this out.

I've started a comprehensive study on this subject here. However, it is still a work in progress.:

YHWH's Table (Part 1)

That's cool, I'll ask a slightly different question:

Are you saying that prior to the cross, an Israelite who truly repented wasn't obligated by the law of Moses to kill any animals?

Leaf473 · Jul 11, 2022

HARK! said:
What is the meaning of the law for separation, and ritual purification after childbirth?

What is the meaning of it? Probably some kind of cleanliness ritual.

Why are there cleanliness rituals in the law? I don't know. Sometimes they seem to have health benefits we can identify today, sometimes they just seem to be about keeping the Israelites separate from other nations.

BobRyan · Jul 11, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Do the scriptures actually say that the sins of those people were forgiven? There is something in the scripture is about God overlooking sins, that's different from forgiving imo.

There is no such thing as being glorified in the presence of God still having sin -- God tells Moses he would die if He sees God. yet Moses and Elijah are now in glorified form in Matt 17 - with Christ in HIS glorified form as well. They were at that point sinless beings, sent from heaven to speak to Christ.

I don't know of any other humans who have been "so fully forgiven" where the fact of it is more blatantly obvious than in the case of those two - before the cross.

BobRyan · Jul 11, 2022

Leaf473 said:
Are you saying that prior to the cross, an Israelite who truly repented wasn't obligated by the law of Moses to kill any animals?

A very different issue than "salvation by works".

And we see in the case of Daniel, Samson, Joseph, Israel for 70 years in Babylon... that such was not the case. Heb 10:4 confirms it.

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2022

BobRyan said:
There is no such thing as being glorified in the presence of God still having sin -- God tells Moses he would die if He sees God. yet Moses and Elijah are now in glorified form in Matt 17 - with Christ in HIS glorified form as well. They were at that point sinless beings, sent from heaven to speak to Christ.

I don't know of any other humans who have been "so fully forgiven" where the fact of it is more blatantly obvious than in the case of those two - before the cross.

Well... James says we all stumble in many ways. How can that be true if we are in Christ?

Were Moses and Elijah obligated by the law of Moses to kill any animals? I think so. Are you disagreeing with that?

Leaf473 · Jul 13, 2022

BobRyan said:
A very different issue than "salvation by works".

And we see in the case of Daniel, Samson, Joseph, Israel for 70 years in Babylon... that such was not the case. Heb 10:4 confirms it.

I don't think we're talking about salvation by works. I think we're talking about whether any part of the law has ended.

Are you saying that no one in the Old Testament was obligated by the law of Moses to kill any animals related to sin? I know you don't believe we are to sacrifice animals today, so I think you would say that those laws have ended.

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