Teach me about the trinity

[gracethroughfaith]

This is how I view the trinity

 

[Geralt]

the issue of authority between the Godhead can only be understood with due consideration of the incarnation and the humanity of Christ. in fact the "Father" "Son" contrast titles only comes to fore in the the New Testament and not in the Old Testament.

this means to say that if you ignore in your equation the humanity (and its limitations) and humility of christ, you will always go in circles in the issue of the Son as subordinate to the Father using human models of authority to describe deity.

I'll start with a question I had in another thread.

So what is the point of all three being God if one has more authority than the other? What does it mean to be God? More authority seems to make the father the greater God of the three. I think thats where the trinity loses people. At least this and a few more parts.

They all have the same will I agree but if one has more authority what does that even mean. Or matter if they all agree to the same thing. Then they would all authorize the same thing.

 

[ToBeLoved]

This is how I view the trinity

I don't understand what you are saying unless you believe the Godhead is not equal. Is that it?

 

[ToBeLoved]

the issue of authority between the Godhead can only be understood with due consideration of the incarnation and the humanity of Christ. in fact the "Father" "Son" contrast titles only comes to fore in the the New Testament and not in the Old Testament.

this means to say that if you ignore in your equation the humanity (and its limitations) and humility of christ, you will always go in circles in the issue of the Son as subordinate to the Father using human models of authority to describe deity.

Exactly. Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father. Perfection, perfect love, there need be no hierarchy because they are in perfect love.

Humans and our pride, ego, sin nature ect demands hierarchy. But perfect love does not need it.

It is a human thing because if sin. We want to have more or be more than another. But when Jesus came to earth He came as servant, not King. To show is by example what love really is.

 

[KawaiiChristianGal]

I lean towards what Servetus said on the trinity... if I'm allowed to say that in this section... I tend to believe Jesus Christ when He said if you've seen Him you've seen the Father. The Bible also says the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him.

I guess the trinity don't do it for me, I mean if the Father is not the Son, and neither are the Holy Spirit, then how can the Holy Spirit be the Father of Jesus if The Father is the Father of Jesus??? It just don't do it for me.

This is not to say my explanation is perfect either but it makes more sense to me, of course I'm open to the Holy Spirit for correction.

 

[W2L]

For me, God the father is the whole of God, He is that whole we cannot see because we would be consumed. Like Moses couldn't see Gods face.

The son is the part that came in the flesh, and the spirit is the part that comes in spirit and dwells inside man. I could be wrong but its how I see it.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I guess the trinity don't do it for me, I mean if the Father is not the Son, and neither are the Holy Spirit, then how can the Holy Spirit be the Father of Jesus if The Father is the Father of Jesus??? It just don't do it for me.

The Holy Spirit isn't Jesus' father.

Jesus, as far as His humanity is concerned, doesn't have a father (apart from His stepfather, Joseph). He was born of the Virgin Mary.

The Father is the Father of the Son from all eternity, that's why the Father is called "Father" and the Son is called "Son".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[KawaiiChristianGal]

The Holy Spirit isn't Jesus' father.

Jesus, as far as His humanity is concerned, doesn't have a father (apart from His stepfather, Joseph). He was born of the Virgin Mary.

The Father is the Father of the Son from all eternity, that's why the Father is called "Father" and the Son is called "Son".

-CryptoLutheran

To me Jesus is God in the flesh. The fullness of that Godhead is in Him.

 

[ewq1938]

The Holy Spirit isn't Jesus' father.

Mat_1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat_1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I lean towards what Servetus said on the trinity... if I'm allowed to say that in this section... I tend to believe Jesus Christ when He said if you've seen Him you've seen the Father. The Bible also says the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him.

I guess the trinity don't do it for me, I mean if the Father is not the Son, and neither are the Holy Spirit, then how can the Holy Spirit be the Father of Jesus if The Father is the Father of Jesus??? It just don't do it for me.

This is not to say my explanation is perfect either but it makes more sense to me, of course I'm open to the Holy Spirit for correction.

He says if you have seen Him you have seen the Father because Jesus said that He only dies that which He has seen His Father do. So if Jesus has only done what the Father does as God's Word says. That explains it perfectly.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Mat_1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat_1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

What Bible version did you get that from?

I've always read that she was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. But that in no way tells us what happened.

I've never, ever seen a Bible say she was with child of the Holy Ghost? That is odd.

 

[Berean777]

One infinite being who is God.

This being is one, however within the one being exists three distinct personalities that is personas, who are coequal and coeternal because all three are the one being.

Nicene Creed states that the Father and the Son are the One Substance.

Now when we speak of human beings as one substance, we see many distinct finite persons that make up the human family with 6 degrees of separation.

With God, One Substance means the one God, because there are no distinct finite god beings that make up the one God. Hence when we have One Substance, we are talking about the same infinite Devine being who is one.

So the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are the very personailites of that one infinite being that makes them coequal and coeternal.

Human beings are separate to one another as finite beings, are therefore distinct not only in personality, but also in that they are distinct finite beings.

The Father, the Son and the Spirit are not distinct beings but are distinct personailites or personas, within the one infinite being. We have no distinction of being, because they are coeternal and coequal as the one and only source of all life, so that distinction is only in the trinity of personalities within that one infinite being.

 

[KawaiiChristianGal]

Mat_1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat_1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

This ^ and it don't make any sense how the HS can be the Father but He's not God the Father yet God the Father is the Father!?!? Confusing.

 

[Berean777]

If a finite human being had multiple personalities then that person would be said to have multiple personality disorder.

The infinite one God being, who is one Substance, meaning there are no other gods beside himself, unlike human beings where there are other human beings. So humans are one Substance as well, but they are finite and multiple of that same substance. With the one God, there are no multiples of substances or Gods, rather the one Substance is the one infinite God being.

So God can also have multiple personailites, but since he is an infinite being, this by no means is a multiple personality disorder, but rather a trinity personality order, that forms the basic foundations of the human family, the trinity is a family perpetually existing in the one infinite being who modelled the finite human beings after himself.

If we look around we see the number three everywhere in creation. Three can be seen in chromosomes XX, XY, YY, in atoms where you have electrons, protons and neutrons, in humans body, spirit and soul, in states of matter liquid, gaseous or solid. Many things out there are order in threes. In fact a feedback control system that is the basis of everything from the simple cell to man made engineered solutions has three components, the receptor, control center, and an effector.

So the essence of the number three is duplicated everywhere and is inescapable. This would be the signature of the intelligent designer who is God, so the trinity is the signit ring of the one God, for he chose to reveal himself in this way to his creation. We may know why God is a trinity of personailites, but we may never know how, because when we talk of how, we try to imagine God as a created being when he is not, for he is the creator.

 

[ViaCrucis]

To me Jesus is God in the flesh. The fullness of that Godhead is in Him.

Yes, I believe that as well. The difference is that I don't believe Jesus is God the Father, He's the Son. As the Son He is very and actual God even as His Father is God.

Also, concerning Colossians 2:9 it's worth noting that the word translated in some translations as "Godhead" is theotes, meaning "Deity" or "the quality of being Divine or God"

The Greek text is:
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς

That is,
"For in Him dwells the entire fullness of Deity in bodily form."

The term "Godhead" is an English archaism from "God" and the suffix -head which in modern English became the suffix -hood; therefore "Godhead" is simply "God-hood", which means "the quality or state of being God". In Christ is the fullness of Deity, and this has been understood to mean that Jesus is, in fact, true and very God--Jesus is God.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

What Bible version did you get that from?

KJV

I've always read that she was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. But that in no way tells us what happened.

I've never, ever seen a Bible say she was with child of the Holy Ghost? That is odd.

It's fun to learn new things

 

[Berean777]

This ^ and it don't make any sense how the HS can be the Father but He's not God the Father yet God the Father is the Father!?!? Confusing.

The conception spoken of is one that is related to a family. In my previous post I mentioned that the trinity is a family unit. In a human family as father and a mother have roles in the child's birth. Within the one eternal God family of personas, notice I did not say eternal family of beings meaning plural. The family of personalities has God the Father as the Father of Jesus and since a mother conceives a child, has the Holy Spirit as a symbol of the mother that conceived Jesus, so the conception is of personalities and not being, so that two personalities that is of the Father and the Holy Spirit as the symbol of conception brought forth the child in what appears to be God showing off his own Son (Isaiah 9:6), who by the way is the same God being, but a distinct personality within the trinity of personalities of that same infinite being.

So God is inacting a family unit, that is the basic fundamental human family that he created where he purposes a father a mother and children as the three signature of his Devine trinity personalities attributes.

Notice marry becomes the mother of the flesh as the flesh is a human construct of the devines creation and the Son of God the Devine is the devine person or Living Word (LOGOS) who now is enfleshed by his earthly mother Mary who becomes the mother of Jesus of Nazereth, who is fully human being because he has a human mother, but the conception of the Living Word or the personality of the Devine Son is from the Holy Spirit who now put the God in this human vessel. This finite human being Jesus of Nazereth is now Jesus (Mary) th Christ (Holy Spirit).

What has not been revealed until now, is that Jesus of Nazereth for him to be fully God and fully man had to have had two mothers, one mother being of a human origin to give him his humanity, who is Mary and the other is the mother being of the Devine origin to give him his Godman identity, who is the Holy Ghost.

According to Filioque twist on the Nicene Creed, the Catholics have it right by saying that the.....

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father ⟨and the Son⟩.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.

Now in the Eastern tradition of orthodoxy, they also have it right by calling the Holy Ghost as she, even though God is not a He or a she, but the act of giving life God has chosen a she and in this case the humanity of Jesus was by Mary who is his human mother and by the Holy Ghost who is his God/Devine mother that makes Jesus the Christ fully human and fully God, according to both the Catholic and Orthodox traditions.

So the Holy Ghost conceived a Devine Son in personality called the Christ and Mary conceived a human son called Jesus and this being became God with us, meaning Emmanuel. Now the Nestorians were also right in that they tried to explain away that Mary is the mother of Jesus and not the Christ and God is the Father of the Christ. What Nestorians could not eloquently explain is the fact that Jesus had two mothers and one was human by origin and the other is the Devine Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:20).

When they labeled the Church at Babylon/Persia/East as Nestorian, because as they claimed that they had known all along what Nestorus had claimed before the other churches, then it now can be seen that Mary can not be theotokos or mother of God, rather the mother of God is the Holy Ghost from a Devine trinity personality and Mary is the mother of his humanity.

So Catholics are right with the Filoque, Orthodox are right with calling the Holy Spirit refers to She in liturgy prayers, the Church of the East (wrongly called Nestorians) is also right in that they have established that Jesus the Christ had two mothers, that is a human and the Devine.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Mat_1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

Mat_1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

Neither of which says that the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus.

"εὑρέθη ἐν γαστρὶ ἔχουσα ἐκ Πνεύματος ἁγίου"

The issue here seems to be the word ἐκ, translated in the KJV as "of" (which is a fine, I'm not criticizing it). The problem is that you seem to want to interpret this as meaning that Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit and thus the Spirit is the father of Jesus--but that's an interpretive choice you are making. The way most Christians have always understood this is that Mary's pregnancy was a miraculous act by the power of the Spirit; thus the fact that she was pregnant was "by" or "from" or "of" the Holy Spirit.

And, likewise with the other passage in verse 20.

So, as I said before, the Holy Spirit is not the father of Jesus. The Holy Spirit did not father Jesus. On the contrary, it is the miraculous act of God by which Mary, a virgin, conceived and gave birth to Christ without any "funny business" going on at all.

God the Father is the Father of Jesus, because Jesus is the eternal, uncreated, only-begotten Son of the Father whose Origin and Generation is without beginning, from the Father's own Being. That is why the Nicene Creed says, "Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten, not made".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

It's fun to learn new things

Except that saying the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus is a fundamental misunderstanding and mischaracterization of the virgin birth. Often due to confusion as to what is meant by the term "Son of God". Jesus is not the Son of God by His birth from Mary, Jesus is the Son of God by His eternal generation from the Father. The term "Son of God" does not refer to the fact that He is human, but to the fact that He is God.

"Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us." - Definition of Chalcedon, 451 AD

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ewq1938]

Neither of which says that the Holy Spirit fathered Jesus.

I disagree. Your explanations don't offer any translation which would suggest something other wise. Matthew Henry says a lot on this. One statement being, "Her pregnancy of the promised seed; before they came together, she was found with child, which really was of the Holy Ghost."