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Taxing the rich to help poor is theft
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<blockquote data-quote="ArmenianJohn" data-source="post: 74407785" data-attributes="member: 324023"><p>And again, you can't refute reality no matter how much you try to pretend that you can. Your article does not prove your point but rather reinforces mine.</p><p></p><p>The Fed is considered "an independent agency WITHIN the government". That's all there is to it. It exists because the government created it and it continues to exist because the government enables and supports it. The Federal Reserve board is appointed by the President and the Fed is considered constitutionally part of the executive branch.</p><p></p><p>You seem to like to play games with semantics, taking whatever words you can stretch or distort the meanings for and then calculating your desired outcome. Doesn't work. The Federal Reserve is an agency like many others that are considered WITHIN the government - agencies like the CIA, FCC, FEC, EPA, SEC, SBA, and many others. I suppose you consider those to not be government agencies either? Good luck finding someone to agree with you on that. Your "evidence" certainly doesn't back your claims.</p><p></p><p></p><p>When you call taxation "theft" then you are directly contradicting God's Word. God's Word says clearly in Romans 13 </p><p>6 <strong>For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.</strong></p><p><strong>7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due;</strong> custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.</p><p></p><p>Nowhere does God's Word call taxation "theft" or even imply it. And in Romans 13, in the verses above, it says that there is a cause for which we pay the taxes, and that cause is that the government are God's ministers who continually attend to their jobs for Him in meting out justice.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Most Marxists are atheists. Socialists are not Marxists. You seem to misunderstand the terms or you (along with those who share your agenda) misrepresent socialism in order to try to make it look bad.</p><p></p><p>But if you want an example of Christians who were socialists, look no further than the Early Church which set up a socialist community under the direction and leadership of the Apostles:</p><p>Acts 2</p><p>44 And all that believed were together, <strong>and had all things common</strong>;</p><p>45 <strong>And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p>And Acts 4</p><p>31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.</p><p>32 <strong>And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; <u>but they had all things common.</u></strong></p><p>33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.</p><p>34 <strong>Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,</strong></p><p>35<u> <strong>And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.</strong></u></p><p>36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,</p><p><strong>37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.</strong></p><p></p><p>Note the wealth was all given to the Apostles and then the Apostles redistributed the wealth according to need (not "merit") - v. 35</p><p></p><p>If Jesus and the Apostles were alive today they would be branded Socialists by most people and hated for their "socialism".</p><p></p><p></p><p>Tell it to those who live in countries like Sweden, Japan, Canada, Switzerland, etc. where socialism helps people have a higher standard of living than we have in the US despite the US being more economically strong and having the highest wealth. You give examples of communism as being socialism but they are not the same thing. When it's convenient you pretend they are the same thing. When it's convenient you pretend socialist nations "are capitalist ones that have socialist programs" or something to that effect.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The United States Government. Did you miss history or social studies in school? You didn't know this?</p><p></p><p></p><p>You're subject to them. They are subject to the vote of the people which includes you but is not just you. Why am I explaining the basics of how things work to you? Why are you asking such simplistic questions? You should seek an education from a school, not from the internet.</p><p></p><p>As for your continued attempt to redefine "subject", don't bother; I've already explained how irrational and wrong you are on that point.</p><p></p><p></p><p>So you're saying that because Rome was pagan and not "secular" that they were rightly called "ministers"?? I can't believe you are saying that pagan Romans were ministers of God because of their theism (which is pagan and worships false gods). That's unbelievable to me. I have to wonder who would agree with you on that - I can't think of anyone, especially not Christians. Is this the concept that right-wing and libertarian media is pushing now?</p><p></p><p></p><p>4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.</p><p></p><p>I wish you would accept the answer that I've shown you directly from God's Word instead of asking the same question over and over. It's as though you think God's Word is going to magically change and become libertarian propaganda to back you up. It doesn't work that way. You either conform to God or you rebel against Him. He won't change to accommodate libertarianism (especially because He hates it and everything that it stands for - too bad for Ayn Rand and her devotees).</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, it says "3 For rulers are not a terror <strong><u>to</u> </strong>good works," not "for". You shouldn't add or take away from God's Word to try to spread your unbiblical libertarian beliefs.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Incorrect. God does not "appoint" any rulers. God gives rulers authority when they achieve their position. God did not put Caesar in power but rather allowed Caesar to come to power through whatever means the Roman Empire decided. God THEN upheld Caesar's earthly power as a ruler to be a minister of Him and His Justice to all his subjects (including citizens - there's no actual distinction between subject or citizen).</p><p></p><p>The USA is no different. America was born out of witchcraft, i.e. rebellion. However, once America was established as an independent nation with an independent rule, God upheld and upholds the power of America as a government to rule its subjects. You are one of those subjects, as am I and every American. Sorry you hate to hear the truth but that's it right there.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What a laugh. You most definitely have a government above you and you even admit you fear it (which you SHOULD). You resent it, and you are resenting God's authority in doing so:</p><p>2 <strong>Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:</strong> and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't know why you're "recalling such a tactic from the 19th century, where slave holders cited Ephesians 6 in order to justify their ownership of human property and ensure they maintained their subjugation over others." That has nothing to do with this discussion. In that case, Ephesians 6 does not state that slave ownership is right, or ordained by God, or that slave owners are "ministers of God", or any other such thing. It exhorts those unfortunate enough to be slaves to be subject to their masters but it does not exonerate the masters for being slave holders. Not to mention that slavery of that time was mostly not like the slave trade that America and Europe perpetrated early in US history. Not to mention also that most of us today are forms of slaves, "wage slaves" as it were.</p><p></p><p>So feel free to recall that or any other irrelevant issue - it doesn't change the fact that God's Word tells us that earthly governmental authority is an extension of His authority and we are to subject ourselves to it, the only exception being when we are DIRECTLY told to go against God. Even Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did not disobey Nebuchadnezzar UNTIL he DIRECTLY ordered them to do something that was against God. It didn't matter that Nebuchadnezzar's government was anti-God, Neb was still an authority on earth and had authority from God to be so. Not even Daniel disobeyed Neb until he was forced to choose between Neb and God.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ArmenianJohn, post: 74407785, member: 324023"] And again, you can't refute reality no matter how much you try to pretend that you can. Your article does not prove your point but rather reinforces mine. The Fed is considered "an independent agency WITHIN the government". That's all there is to it. It exists because the government created it and it continues to exist because the government enables and supports it. The Federal Reserve board is appointed by the President and the Fed is considered constitutionally part of the executive branch. You seem to like to play games with semantics, taking whatever words you can stretch or distort the meanings for and then calculating your desired outcome. Doesn't work. The Federal Reserve is an agency like many others that are considered WITHIN the government - agencies like the CIA, FCC, FEC, EPA, SEC, SBA, and many others. I suppose you consider those to not be government agencies either? Good luck finding someone to agree with you on that. Your "evidence" certainly doesn't back your claims. When you call taxation "theft" then you are directly contradicting God's Word. God's Word says clearly in Romans 13 6 [B]For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due;[/B] custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. Nowhere does God's Word call taxation "theft" or even imply it. And in Romans 13, in the verses above, it says that there is a cause for which we pay the taxes, and that cause is that the government are God's ministers who continually attend to their jobs for Him in meting out justice. Most Marxists are atheists. Socialists are not Marxists. You seem to misunderstand the terms or you (along with those who share your agenda) misrepresent socialism in order to try to make it look bad. But if you want an example of Christians who were socialists, look no further than the Early Church which set up a socialist community under the direction and leadership of the Apostles: Acts 2 44 And all that believed were together, [B]and had all things common[/B]; 45 [B]And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. [/B] And Acts 4 31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. 32 [B]And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; [U]but they had all things common.[/U][/B] 33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. 34 [B]Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,[/B] 35[U] [B]And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.[/B][/U] 36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being interpreted, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus, [B]37 Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet.[/B] Note the wealth was all given to the Apostles and then the Apostles redistributed the wealth according to need (not "merit") - v. 35 If Jesus and the Apostles were alive today they would be branded Socialists by most people and hated for their "socialism". Tell it to those who live in countries like Sweden, Japan, Canada, Switzerland, etc. where socialism helps people have a higher standard of living than we have in the US despite the US being more economically strong and having the highest wealth. You give examples of communism as being socialism but they are not the same thing. When it's convenient you pretend they are the same thing. When it's convenient you pretend socialist nations "are capitalist ones that have socialist programs" or something to that effect. The United States Government. Did you miss history or social studies in school? You didn't know this? You're subject to them. They are subject to the vote of the people which includes you but is not just you. Why am I explaining the basics of how things work to you? Why are you asking such simplistic questions? You should seek an education from a school, not from the internet. As for your continued attempt to redefine "subject", don't bother; I've already explained how irrational and wrong you are on that point. So you're saying that because Rome was pagan and not "secular" that they were rightly called "ministers"?? I can't believe you are saying that pagan Romans were ministers of God because of their theism (which is pagan and worships false gods). That's unbelievable to me. I have to wonder who would agree with you on that - I can't think of anyone, especially not Christians. Is this the concept that right-wing and libertarian media is pushing now? 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. I wish you would accept the answer that I've shown you directly from God's Word instead of asking the same question over and over. It's as though you think God's Word is going to magically change and become libertarian propaganda to back you up. It doesn't work that way. You either conform to God or you rebel against Him. He won't change to accommodate libertarianism (especially because He hates it and everything that it stands for - too bad for Ayn Rand and her devotees). No, it says "3 For rulers are not a terror [B][U]to[/U] [/B]good works," not "for". You shouldn't add or take away from God's Word to try to spread your unbiblical libertarian beliefs. Incorrect. God does not "appoint" any rulers. God gives rulers authority when they achieve their position. God did not put Caesar in power but rather allowed Caesar to come to power through whatever means the Roman Empire decided. God THEN upheld Caesar's earthly power as a ruler to be a minister of Him and His Justice to all his subjects (including citizens - there's no actual distinction between subject or citizen). The USA is no different. America was born out of witchcraft, i.e. rebellion. However, once America was established as an independent nation with an independent rule, God upheld and upholds the power of America as a government to rule its subjects. You are one of those subjects, as am I and every American. Sorry you hate to hear the truth but that's it right there. What a laugh. You most definitely have a government above you and you even admit you fear it (which you SHOULD). You resent it, and you are resenting God's authority in doing so: 2 [B]Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:[/B] and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. I don't know why you're "recalling such a tactic from the 19th century, where slave holders cited Ephesians 6 in order to justify their ownership of human property and ensure they maintained their subjugation over others." That has nothing to do with this discussion. In that case, Ephesians 6 does not state that slave ownership is right, or ordained by God, or that slave owners are "ministers of God", or any other such thing. It exhorts those unfortunate enough to be slaves to be subject to their masters but it does not exonerate the masters for being slave holders. Not to mention that slavery of that time was mostly not like the slave trade that America and Europe perpetrated early in US history. Not to mention also that most of us today are forms of slaves, "wage slaves" as it were. So feel free to recall that or any other irrelevant issue - it doesn't change the fact that God's Word tells us that earthly governmental authority is an extension of His authority and we are to subject ourselves to it, the only exception being when we are DIRECTLY told to go against God. Even Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego did not disobey Nebuchadnezzar UNTIL he DIRECTLY ordered them to do something that was against God. It didn't matter that Nebuchadnezzar's government was anti-God, Neb was still an authority on earth and had authority from God to be so. Not even Daniel disobeyed Neb until he was forced to choose between Neb and God. [/QUOTE]
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