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Taxing the rich to help poor is theft
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<blockquote data-quote="ArmenianJohn" data-source="post: 74403947" data-attributes="member: 324023"><p>That would be our government. Are you familiar with what the Federal Reserve is and where/how it fits within our government?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I just don't understand why your thoughts are not in line with God's Word and what He teaches us and that's why I thought that you got them from somewhere else. I understand I was wrong and yes that is extremely disappointing to see someone who professes to be a Christian adopt an atheistic Ayn Rand based outlook on earthly government.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The imaginary boogie man is not "socialism" but rather the "oppression of socialism" (as I specifically referred to it in my post). We already have state-run industry and services so we've had "socialism" all along and the government has the right to socialize whatever it wants (going through their own proper channels, of course). So yes, I see socialism already in our government (for hundreds of years) and I see more socialism proposed (much of which I support enthusiastically) but I don't see "the <strong>oppression</strong> of socialism" in this country. Feel free to point it out to me but I doubt you can come up with any examples.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The word "subject" in the English language is not limited to a certain subset of people under a governmental authority. Your definition above is in the context of an article that explores the use of those terms specifically in regards to American history. Go back and re-read your article there and you'll see that it openly admits that the term "subject" was redefined and pushed aside as a result of anti-Colonial bias. That is wholly understandable but the point is you're taking the word "subject" and going by a very specific case that is not applicable to our discussion as a way of avoiding the actual definition of the term.</p><p></p><p>Here's the definition of "subject":</p><p>sub·ject</p><p><em>noun</em></p><p>noun: <strong>subject</strong>; plural noun: <strong>subjects</strong></p><p>/ˈsəbjekt/</p><p>3. a citizen or member of a state other than its supreme ruler.</p><p></p><p>You are a subject of the United States of America, by definition. The Bible doesn't care about what after-the-fact connotations Americans want to add to the term to further their rebellion against their erstwhile Colonial status.</p><p></p><p></p><p>All subjects have a voice to oppose the laws and taxes they are subjected to. I don't understand how you think that changes the basic fact that you are subjected to the laws and taxes (and therefore a subject).</p><p></p><p></p><p>But they weren't in the case quoted directly from God's Word. They were all pagans who worshiped false gods and Caesar. Are you trying to say that as long as one is some sort of deist they can be a minister (even if the god/s they believe in are false pagan ones) but an atheist can't be?</p><p></p><p>Quite clearly, God's Word is referring to a non-Christian(/Jewish) earthly government. It neither specifies nor excludes any government run by any particular type of people (i.e. Christian or non-Christian).</p><p></p><p>I don't understand where you're getting this notion that the government referred to in Romans 13 (or anywhere else in the NT) was somehow Christian or more qualified to be ministers of God's justice than the ones we have today. And by the way, not only is the American government NOT all atheists but a majority of them are actually Christians.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Obviously you disagree, and that is your right. However, you can't justify your viewpoint from a Christian perspective - it is quite the opposite of what God's Word clearly states, as I continue to show. God's Word is sharper than any two-edged sword and it will continue to rip your libertarian ideology apart.</p><p></p><p>And yes, you will tolerate your labors being "usurped" if that's how you want to view it. You have no choice. You pay your taxes because you don't want to go to jail and that is wise. If you were obeying God you would be cheerfully giving your taxes, thanking God that you have such a benign earthly government above you, one that allows you a voice and a certain degree of influence, and that He is in control and that you trust Him that He will use your taxes according to what He has said in His Word.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Any government that directly goes against God's Word is in error on that point and is not to be obeyed on that point. However, those governments still serve a role in meting out God's justice. If Stalin's government rounded up and killed Christians (and they did) then they were wrong and it would be right for a Christian to resist that. However, if Stalin's government arrested and took to jail an actual murderer or thief or rapist (or any sort of actual criminal), then the government was meting out God's justice on God's behalf. In other words, if you lived under Stalin's government, you wouldn't be justified in committing a crime of stealing just because the same government whose law you're breaking is also doing evil things like killing Christians. You'd still be a thief, you'd still be under the authority of that government, and when that government punishes you for stealing they are meting out God's justice upon you.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It's clear from the context - the earthly government. That is the power being referred to and it is clarified that their power comes from God.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Wrong. That's what what this verse says. Read again:</p><p>3 <strong>For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:</strong></p><p></p><p>Where in there do you see that "evil rulers do not fit the context"?? They do but in their evil you are not obligated to obey them. If an evil ruler commands you to worship an idol (kind of how Trump does today) then you are to disobey them in favor of obeying God. But if an evil ruler demands taxes from you that is well within their rights, no matter how evil they might be in other areas, and you must subject yourself and obey that evil ruler on that matter.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I agree that Trump is an atheist but he is still our president and I subject myself to the law of the government he is the head of. It doesn't matter that he's an atheist.</p><p></p><p>But many of our government leaders are NOT atheists and are in fact Christians.</p><p></p><p>But EVEN IF our government was completely atheists then it wouldn't even matter. The Word of God does not give a religion test for subjection to earthly authority. It simply states to subject ourselves and that the earthly governments are ministers of God unto justice. You're making up some kind of contingency based on religion which doesn't come from the Word of God but from your own mind. Sorry, I'm going to obey God's Word and not your man-made opinion.</p><p></p><p></p><p>If you say so. I think it has more to do with your fear of punishment if caught, because you're a libertarian and you believe that your paying of taxes is "theft", so I find it hard to believe you when you say you are paying taxes out of obedience to God's word here. You've made it abundantly clear that you don't agree with Romans 13 on this issue.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Again, yes, even in the case of what you are calling "evil rulers". I've shown above how you are wrong on that issue, but bottom line is that God's Word does not make a distinction and provide a "religion test" for earthly governments.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely, speak all you want. Enjoy! Of course, when you decide to call their taxation an "injustice" (i.e. "theft") you are speaking directly against what God's Word teaches. And you're free to do that also - you are free to speak against God and His Will. Just don't pretend that your political ideology is supported by Christianity, because it's actually diametrically opposed to Christianity. Ayn Rand will tell you the same thing.</p><p></p><p></p><p>By calling it theft and injustice you DO resist it. You are calling God a liar because He has explicitly said that it is NOT theft but it is their right by the authority He has given them. You ultimately comply but you resist the whole time. You only ultimately comply out of the fear that you will be punished (and you're right, you WILL be punished if you don't comply).</p><p></p><p></p><p>I've shown it to you right there in Romans 13. You flat out reject it, I can't help that. Here it is in black and white one last time - pay attention to verses 4 and 6 where earthly governments are explicitly called God's ministers:</p><p>Romans 13</p><p>1 <strong>Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.</strong></p><p></p><p>2 <strong>Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:</strong> and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.</p><p></p><p>3 <strong>For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. </strong>Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:</p><p></p><p>4 <strong><u>For he is the minister of God to thee for good. </u></strong>But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.</p><p></p><p>5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.</p><p></p><p>6 <strong>For for this cause pay ye tribute also:<u> for they are God's ministers, </u>attending continually upon this very thing.</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong>7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due;</strong> custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ArmenianJohn, post: 74403947, member: 324023"] That would be our government. Are you familiar with what the Federal Reserve is and where/how it fits within our government? I just don't understand why your thoughts are not in line with God's Word and what He teaches us and that's why I thought that you got them from somewhere else. I understand I was wrong and yes that is extremely disappointing to see someone who professes to be a Christian adopt an atheistic Ayn Rand based outlook on earthly government. The imaginary boogie man is not "socialism" but rather the "oppression of socialism" (as I specifically referred to it in my post). We already have state-run industry and services so we've had "socialism" all along and the government has the right to socialize whatever it wants (going through their own proper channels, of course). So yes, I see socialism already in our government (for hundreds of years) and I see more socialism proposed (much of which I support enthusiastically) but I don't see "the [B]oppression[/B] of socialism" in this country. Feel free to point it out to me but I doubt you can come up with any examples. The word "subject" in the English language is not limited to a certain subset of people under a governmental authority. Your definition above is in the context of an article that explores the use of those terms specifically in regards to American history. Go back and re-read your article there and you'll see that it openly admits that the term "subject" was redefined and pushed aside as a result of anti-Colonial bias. That is wholly understandable but the point is you're taking the word "subject" and going by a very specific case that is not applicable to our discussion as a way of avoiding the actual definition of the term. Here's the definition of "subject": sub·ject [I]noun[/I] noun: [B]subject[/B]; plural noun: [B]subjects[/B] /ˈsəbjekt/ 3. a citizen or member of a state other than its supreme ruler. You are a subject of the United States of America, by definition. The Bible doesn't care about what after-the-fact connotations Americans want to add to the term to further their rebellion against their erstwhile Colonial status. All subjects have a voice to oppose the laws and taxes they are subjected to. I don't understand how you think that changes the basic fact that you are subjected to the laws and taxes (and therefore a subject). But they weren't in the case quoted directly from God's Word. They were all pagans who worshiped false gods and Caesar. Are you trying to say that as long as one is some sort of deist they can be a minister (even if the god/s they believe in are false pagan ones) but an atheist can't be? Quite clearly, God's Word is referring to a non-Christian(/Jewish) earthly government. It neither specifies nor excludes any government run by any particular type of people (i.e. Christian or non-Christian). I don't understand where you're getting this notion that the government referred to in Romans 13 (or anywhere else in the NT) was somehow Christian or more qualified to be ministers of God's justice than the ones we have today. And by the way, not only is the American government NOT all atheists but a majority of them are actually Christians. Obviously you disagree, and that is your right. However, you can't justify your viewpoint from a Christian perspective - it is quite the opposite of what God's Word clearly states, as I continue to show. God's Word is sharper than any two-edged sword and it will continue to rip your libertarian ideology apart. And yes, you will tolerate your labors being "usurped" if that's how you want to view it. You have no choice. You pay your taxes because you don't want to go to jail and that is wise. If you were obeying God you would be cheerfully giving your taxes, thanking God that you have such a benign earthly government above you, one that allows you a voice and a certain degree of influence, and that He is in control and that you trust Him that He will use your taxes according to what He has said in His Word. Any government that directly goes against God's Word is in error on that point and is not to be obeyed on that point. However, those governments still serve a role in meting out God's justice. If Stalin's government rounded up and killed Christians (and they did) then they were wrong and it would be right for a Christian to resist that. However, if Stalin's government arrested and took to jail an actual murderer or thief or rapist (or any sort of actual criminal), then the government was meting out God's justice on God's behalf. In other words, if you lived under Stalin's government, you wouldn't be justified in committing a crime of stealing just because the same government whose law you're breaking is also doing evil things like killing Christians. You'd still be a thief, you'd still be under the authority of that government, and when that government punishes you for stealing they are meting out God's justice upon you. It's clear from the context - the earthly government. That is the power being referred to and it is clarified that their power comes from God. Wrong. That's what what this verse says. Read again: 3 [B]For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:[/B] Where in there do you see that "evil rulers do not fit the context"?? They do but in their evil you are not obligated to obey them. If an evil ruler commands you to worship an idol (kind of how Trump does today) then you are to disobey them in favor of obeying God. But if an evil ruler demands taxes from you that is well within their rights, no matter how evil they might be in other areas, and you must subject yourself and obey that evil ruler on that matter. I agree that Trump is an atheist but he is still our president and I subject myself to the law of the government he is the head of. It doesn't matter that he's an atheist. But many of our government leaders are NOT atheists and are in fact Christians. But EVEN IF our government was completely atheists then it wouldn't even matter. The Word of God does not give a religion test for subjection to earthly authority. It simply states to subject ourselves and that the earthly governments are ministers of God unto justice. You're making up some kind of contingency based on religion which doesn't come from the Word of God but from your own mind. Sorry, I'm going to obey God's Word and not your man-made opinion. If you say so. I think it has more to do with your fear of punishment if caught, because you're a libertarian and you believe that your paying of taxes is "theft", so I find it hard to believe you when you say you are paying taxes out of obedience to God's word here. You've made it abundantly clear that you don't agree with Romans 13 on this issue. Again, yes, even in the case of what you are calling "evil rulers". I've shown above how you are wrong on that issue, but bottom line is that God's Word does not make a distinction and provide a "religion test" for earthly governments. Absolutely, speak all you want. Enjoy! Of course, when you decide to call their taxation an "injustice" (i.e. "theft") you are speaking directly against what God's Word teaches. And you're free to do that also - you are free to speak against God and His Will. Just don't pretend that your political ideology is supported by Christianity, because it's actually diametrically opposed to Christianity. Ayn Rand will tell you the same thing. By calling it theft and injustice you DO resist it. You are calling God a liar because He has explicitly said that it is NOT theft but it is their right by the authority He has given them. You ultimately comply but you resist the whole time. You only ultimately comply out of the fear that you will be punished (and you're right, you WILL be punished if you don't comply). I've shown it to you right there in Romans 13. You flat out reject it, I can't help that. Here it is in black and white one last time - pay attention to verses 4 and 6 where earthly governments are explicitly called God's ministers: Romans 13 1 [B]Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.[/B] 2 [B]Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God:[/B] and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 [B]For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. [/B]Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 [B][U]For he is the minister of God to thee for good. [/U][/B]But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. 5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. 6 [B]For for this cause pay ye tribute also:[U] for they are God's ministers, [/U]attending continually upon this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due;[/B] custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour. [/QUOTE]
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