Tattoos?

[PreachersWife2004]

And do you pick clothes that look good on you and make you feel good? Or that express some sort of feeling or belief that you have?

by their own logic, I hope they're just wearing burlap bags. Anything else would be considered sinful.

 

[Aimiel]

Tattoos are: art you would NOT hang on your living room wall.

 

[BereanTodd]

Tattoos are: art you would NOT hang on your living room wall.

Depends on who you are and what your tattoo is of. I love my tattoo, would definately hang a painting of it. What about tattoos of crosses? How many crosses do people have hanging around their homes?

 

[Aimiel]

Most homes I've been in don't have any simple line-art in their living room. To each his own I guess. I don't see anything wrong with getting a tattoo, though while I was in the Navy, no one could ever convince me that I needed one. I have no use for one. I like the skin I have.

 

[Aimiel]

OK, I wasn't subscribed to this thread, I only came back in because I recognized you from TOL. Hey Todd!!! =)

(unsubscribed once more)

 

[addo]

Had I been able to get a tattoo, I always wanted the fish with the cross, or just a celtic cross. I seriously doubt God is going to strike me down because of that.

Why wouldn't He?

If I were to create some very beautiful creature (referring to the bodies) and I would declare them "very good" I wouldn't want them to say "Hey! I can do better than the creator! I think I can make them even better by adding a small drawing here or there." It's like someone going back in time and painting a big graffiti on the Old Temple (see the image in one of my previous posts). That would actually ruin it, instead of improving it. God created something and called it "very good". Don't let your own mind think you can actually improve it. And remember that it is not your body but His body. He can do whatever He wishes with it. As far as I know, He wasn't very pleased with His people putting marks on them, and I don't think He is now either.

Well, I did actually go onto to show where Paul talks about ceremonial laws. There are also several instances in the NT where moral laws are talked about...honoring our parents, avoiding sexual immorality.

The fact that you chose to omit the rest of my post tells me you either didn't read it or you didn't understand that I was making the distinction between ceremonial (all laws pertaining to being unclean) versus moral laws.

Is prohibition against tattoos a ceremonial law?

Taking your logic one step further, do you take your temple out of the house every day?

Yes, because it is healthy. Staying home on the couch all day would actually is damaging to my body. It was designed to be moving most of the time. Sitting on a chair all day isn't going to improve it, but worsen it.

Do you drive in a car?

I'm 15. How on earth am I going to drive a car?

Do you walk places?

Yes. Doing physical exercise, like walking, is good for you 'temple'.

Goodness, why would you want to put the temple of the Lord in such dangerous positions?

The benefits are more than the risks. I'd better have something to eat and go shopping than staying home and starving.

That's why the logic of "your body is a temple, don't mess with it" taken in the legalistic viewpoint ends up falling apart.

What did I say wrong? All I said was that God's old Temple -by His command- wasn't adorned outside with drawings or anything of the sort, giving us a strong hint of what He expects of us. It's no such big mystery.

He sure did. But wearing earrings doesn't mean I "love the things of the world". John was referring to letting our faith be governed by the morality of society and the world. IOW, don't fall lock-step with the world when it tells you to go against God's word.

Could you stop wearing earrings?

And do you pick clothes that look good on you and make you feel good? Or that express some sort of feeling or belief that you have?

I generally wear casual clothes. A pair of jeans, some shoes and a jacket and/or T-shirts. I don't need anything else. Do you? Except for something special, that's what I wear all the year.

Tattoos are: art you would NOT hang on your living room wall.

Of course not. You hang them on the outside of the walls of your 'house' (actually, it is more likely a 'tent' for now).

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Why wouldn't He?

Why would he?

If I were to create some very beautiful creature (referring to the bodies) and I would declare them "very good" I wouldn't want them to say "Hey! I can do better than the creator! I think I can make them even better by adding a small drawing here or there." It's like someone going back in time and painting a big graffiti on the Old Temple (see the image in one of my previous posts). That would actually ruin it, instead of improving it. God created something and called it "very good". Don't let your own mind think you can actually improve it. And remember that it is not your body but His body. He can do whatever He wishes with it. As far as I know, He wasn't very pleased with His people putting marks on them, and I don't think He is now either.

I think God is more worried about our actions and words as Christians, not whether we're putting tattoos on our bodies. Focus more on your own faith and stop condemning faithful Christians for getting tattoos. I think the Lord is more concerned with that than He is about whether or not I get a tattoo.

Besides, most Christians who get Christian-themed tattoos are doing so to glorify God, not "improve" themselves.

Do you get haircuts? Do you shave? Do you shower? These are all things that God created - he gave us hair that grows and bodies that do certain things for certain times. By your logic, anything we do to counter those things is saying "this isn't good enough".

Is prohibition against tattoos a ceremonial law?

yes. The idea behind it was keeping the body clean. The ceremonial laws all point to the uncleanness of God's people. It was to remind the people how unclean they were. Jesus has made the sacrifice to wash our sins away; we are no longer unclean.

Now...if you don't believe that then you better prepare yourself that when you're married, there's going to be a very small window of opportunity for having sex with your wife. There's numerous rules in the OT about sex before, during and after a woman's menstrual cycle. And I'm sure that if you believe that ceremonial law is still in place, you would be sure to follow those rules as well.

Yes, because it is healthy. Staying home on the couch all day would actually is damaging to my body. It was designed to be moving most of the time. Sitting on a chair all day isn't going to improve it, but worsen it.

I'm 15. How on earth am I going to drive a car?

Yes. Doing physical exercise, like walking, is good for you 'temple'.

The benefits are more than the risks. I'd better have something to eat and go shopping than staying home and starving.

You're 15. That explains a lot. You can't even get a tattoo right now.

At any rate, any time you go out, you put your 'temple' at risk, whether they outweigh the benefits or not. That makes you no better than the person who goes and gets a tattoo.

What did I say wrong? All I said was that God's old Temple -by His command- wasn't adorned outside with drawings or anything of the sort, giving us a strong hint of what He expects of us. It's no such big mystery.

It is illogical to think that because old-school temples had no adornments that human bodies are not to have any.

Could you stop wearing earrings?

I'm not even wearing them now. What difference does that make?

I generally wear casual clothes. A pair of jeans, some shoes and a jacket and/or T-shirts. I don't need anything else. Do you? Except for something special, that's what I wear all the year.

Shoes! Oh noez! You're telling God he didn't make your feet good enough!

Of course not. You hang them on the outside of the walls of your 'house' (actually, it is more likely a 'tent' for now).

I actually do have a piece of tattoo art hanging on my wall. I designed it for a friend who suggested I get it framed.

 

[Singermom]

Not to be a brat, but...

If a piece of art is so nice, why not just have it hanging on your wall instead of engraved upon your person?

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Not to be a brat, but...

If a piece of art is so nice, why not just have it hanging on your wall instead of engraved upon your person?

I don't think you're being a brat...

There are things I hang on my wall that I wouldn't put on my body.

But...with stuff that I would put on my body, like crosses, if they're in view they can often be conversation starters, or I just like to share the beauty of the cross. If my tattoo was hidden, then it would be another continual reminder to me of my savior's sacrifice for me.

People have different reasons for getting tattoos. Some of those reasons could certainly be considered sinful, as well.

 

[Sojourner1]

I think tattoos fall in the "Everything is permissible – but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible – but not everything is constructive" category. I think it's something that the person should prayerfully decide for themselves to determine if getting a tattoo is really a beneficial thing, or if getting a tattoo could end up being a negative thing. If you are in a position of authority in the church, for example, would your tattoo cause a new believer to stumble? Would your tattoo have an effect on your ability to witness and evangelize?

 

[dies-l]

I think tattoos fall in the "Everything is permissible – but not everything is beneficial. Everything is permissible – but not everything is constructive" category. I think it's something that the person should prayerfully decide for themselves to determine if getting a tattoo is really a beneficial thing, or if getting a tattoo could end up being a negative thing. If you are in a position of authority in the church, for example, would your tattoo cause a new believer to stumble? Would your tattoo have an effect on your ability to witness and evangelize?

And it is important to note that the answer to these questions is often going to be fact-dependent. For example, a pastor of a biker ministry in Sturgis might answer the question differently than a Fundamental Baptist pastor in the heart of the Bible Belt.

 

[Sojourner1]

And it is important to note that the answer to these questions is often going to be fact-dependent. For example, a pastor of a biker ministry in Sturgis might answer the question differently than a Fundamental Baptist pastor in the heart of the Bible Belt.

I agree. I live in Southern California and our youth Pastor has several tattoos. No one in our congregation seems to have a problem with it and it helps him connect with the younger generation.

 

[BereanTodd]

OK, I wasn't subscribed to this thread, I only came back in because I recognized you from TOL. Hey Todd!!! =)

(unsubscribed once more)

Hey, long time no see. I've come along way from those days, find myself much closer to your positions now that I find myself in the AG. Good stuff though, good to see you around.

 

[TasManOfGod]

What meaning? The Bible does not mention tattoos. It mentions an ancient near east religious practice of marking the flesh for the dead - in a section where it is talking about other ANE religious practices that the Jews were to avoid. Read it in context and stop cherry picking and reading modern times back into that verse.

Far be it for me to correct you but perhaps you need to read Leviticus in context
Cutting the body "for the dead" indeed was a practice of those from where the Children of Israel came. It was also a practice of the Egyptians to mark the flesh (tattooing) for decoration (If you dont believe this read some history on the matter)
What God was in fact saying was not to engage in godless practices which are done by the people from where they came. Is not God giving us the same message today?

 

[TasManOfGod]

The sacrifice of Calvary did not give us licence to continue to do what the Lord says is unholy when when the nature of the act has not changed from the time the Lord first spoke of it
The only difference between the old and the new is that the old is written down and taught as you learn at school. The new is the same law except now there is no need to learn as a school child but now it is written on a Christ centred heart.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

The sacrifice of Calvary did not give us licence to continue to do what the Lord says is unholy when when the nature of the act has not changed from the time the Lord first spoke of it
The only difference between the old and the new is that the old is written down and taught as you learn at school. The new is the same law except now there is no need to learn as a school child but now it is written on a Christ centred heart.

So you diligently follow all of the ceremonial laws then?

 

[BereanTodd]

Far be it for me to correct you but perhaps you need to read Leviticus in context
Cutting the body "for the dead" indeed was a practice of those from where the Children of Israel came. It was also a practice of the Egyptians to mark the flesh (tattooing) for decoration (If you dont believe this read some history on the matter)
What God was in fact saying was not to engage in godless practices which are done by the people from where they came. Is not God giving us the same message today?

We are nearly completely in agreement here. Let me ammend your statement though to make it slightly more accurate. What God was i nfact saying was "do not partake of these pagan religious practices. Worship the One true God only, and keep yourselves from any pretense of following or allowing these other relgions in." The practices spoken of were not just general practices of those pagan peoples they were encountering, they were religious practices of those pagan peoples.

Modern tattooing is not a pagan religious practice, it bears no relgious identity. It is a cultural/artistic method of personal expression. That is the disconect between what Leviticus speaks of and what happens today.

 

[visionary]

Philippians 3:2
Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh.

 

[addo]

Why would he?

I asked first: why wouldn't He? You are ruining His beautiful building. That is a reason enough. Luckily He is quite patient.

"If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are." (1 Corinthians 3:17)

Holy is something separated from the rest for a divine purpose. I fear the the Body of Christ becomes more like the world by each day that passes.

I think God is more worried about our actions and words as Christians, not whether we're putting tattoos on our bodies.

Getting yourself a tattoo is an action you do.

And sometimes the small details are the ones that matter. But I wouldn't say getting a tattoo is a 'small' detail.

Focus more on your own faith and stop condemning faithful Christians for getting tattoos. I think the Lord is more concerned with that than He is about whether or not I get a tattoo.

As I said: everything about us is important to Him.

So this is a more gentle way of saying "mind your own business". But I'm sorry: I can't. We are all one body. If one does something wrong, all the body suffers.

Besides, most Christians who get Christian-themed tattoos are doing so to glorify God, not "improve" themselves.

So you are simply adding your own works to God's to glorify him. God said man-originated methods of glorifying Him are useless; they are in vain. The best and only way of glorifying Him is by being obedient.

Do you get haircuts?

Yes.

Do you shave?

I don't have a beard yet.

Do you shower?

Yes.

These are all things that God created - he gave us hair that grows and bodies that do certain things for certain times. By your logic, anything we do to counter those things is saying "this isn't good enough".

God made hair grow for: it is easy to destroy it accidentally like burning or cutting it, so since it is growing, we won't have problems like that. Actually not growing hair would be a very bad idea.

And I shower because the world now days is very dirty. Don't get me wrong: sweat is good, in a certain sense. But literally: it is just waste of the body. For it is eliminated from the body for a reason. It is something unusable anymore. It was used to cool the body and perhaps (but I'm not sure) to eliminate excess of minerals, but I don't know enough to be able to tell that certainly. Now you can't use it anymore. So it's useless after it gets eliminated from the body. This is why it must go away. It also smells bad.

So what is so bad about washing anyway? God makes the allegory of washing us from sin. If washing were bad, He wouldn't use that allegory in the good sense, would He? Now everything we wash away generally is bad or at least it doesn't have a good use, like dirt, sweat, etc.

yes. The idea behind it was keeping the body clean. The ceremonial laws all point to the uncleanness of God's people. It was to remind the people how unclean they were. Jesus has made the sacrifice to wash our sins away; we are no longer unclean.

So we must not keep the body clean anymore?

Now...if you don't believe that then you better prepare yourself that when you're married, there's going to be a very small window of opportunity for having sex with your wife. There's numerous rules in the OT about sex before, during and after a woman's menstrual cycle. And I'm sure that if you believe that ceremonial law is still in place, you would be sure to follow those rules as well.

Oh right! I forgot marriage is all about sex. [/sarcastic]

You're 15. That explains a lot. You can't even get a tattoo right now.

At any rate, any time you go out, you put your 'temple' at risk, whether they outweigh the benefits or not. That makes you no better than the person who goes and gets a tattoo.

God didn't forbid getting out of the house; he didn't forbid to prepare food is knives were involved, for example. But yet by example and commandant He doesn't allow us to defile ourselves by permanently marking our body or things alike.

It is illogical to think that because old-school temples had no adornments that human bodies are not to have any.

I have so much to say about this.

First of all, it was not just a Temple. It was God's Temple. You seem to be putting the Temple of God in line with the pagan temples, because you put it in plural ("old-school temples"). It was the Temple of the One God, His place of rest. That is where His presence was. And the Temple was carefully built according to His desire, just as it is written:

Then David gave his son Solomon the plans for the portico of the temple, its buildings, its storerooms, its upper parts, its inner rooms and the place of atonement. He gave him the plans of allthat theSpirit had put in his mind for the courts of the temple of the LORD and all the surrounding rooms, for the treasuries of the temple of God and for the treasuries for the dedicated things. He gave him instructions for the divisions of the priests and Levites, and for all the work of serving in the temple of the LORD, as well as for all the articles to be used in its service. He designated the weight of gold for all the gold articles to be used in various kinds of service, and the weight of silver for all the silver articles to be used in various kinds of service: the weight of gold for the gold lampstands and their lamps, with the weight for each lampstand and its lamps; and the weight of silver for each silver lampstand and its lamps, according to the use of each lampstand; the weight of gold for each table for consecrated bread; the weight of silver for the silver tables; the weight of pure gold for the forks, sprinkling bowls and pitchers; the weight of gold for each gold dish; the weight of silver for each silver dish; and the weight of the refined gold for the altar of incense. He also gave him the plan for the chariot, that is, the cherubim of gold that spread their wings and shelter the ark of the covenant of the LORD. "All this," David said, "I have in writing from the hand of the LORD upon me, and He gave me understanding in all the details of the plan." (1 Chronicles 28:11-19)
​

Look in how much detail the LORD made the plans for the Temple!

So it was the Temple of God, very carefully built. It took them approximately 40 years to build it. They had plans from David received from revelation from God, by the Spirit. And it wasn't adorned outside. All of value was inside.

And it is perfectly logical since you are the Temple of God now!

I'm not even wearing them now. What difference does that make?

Why do you wear them? Why do women (and some men now in these "modern" times) wear jewelry?

Shoes! Oh noez! You're telling God he didn't make your feet good enough!

He did make them good enough but unfortunately, men made roads of asphalt. As you know, it harms your feet to walk on asphalt on bear foot. If we were to walk on grass, as He intended, that would be a good point. But of course, God doesn't speak negatively about shoes, so why would they be bad?

 

[TasManOfGod]

I know you have quite a reputation for debating this topic,

My record is clean before God on this issue -sure I have been harrassed by corrupt people -but hey, that is what carrying your cross is all about isn't it?