Tattoos

[BoranJarami]

I never said that God has changed. He doesn't. But while God does not change, humans do and the the way God deals with us does as well. Besides that, nowhere in the Bible does it say that tatoos are unholy or bad in any way.

 

[Lumen]

He most certainly did. On a number of occasions he healed on the sabbath, once even mixeing mud to do it. In response he never said that what he was doing was not work, he instead asked which was better, to not work on the sabbath or heal.



How does it glorify God to not shave your beard or wear cloths made from different materials? The law neither brings glory to God, nor does it save man. Paul told us that the purpose of the law was to show us that we are sinners (Romans 7:7). It is not good to use the law to glorify God because as the writer of Hebrews tells us, the law was only a shadow of what was to come (Hebrews 10:1). Therefore it is better to glorify God not with the shadow but the fullness which we were given To us by the Christ.

The law said what meat we could eat and when and how to worship, but we are told in the new covanent:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."
(Colossians 2:16-17)

I never said using the law to replace the fullness of christ. The fullness of christ with the law can be used to further glorify God.

I don't consider healing work, that's what I meant when I said he didn't work.

There is no "new covenant". Jesus brought with him a new interpetation of the old.

 

[BoranJarami]

I never said using the law to replace the fullness of christ.

I did not meant to imply that you said this. I was saying that according to the Bible the law is imperfect and is only a shadow of the fullness which Christ brought. As such we cannot depend on it to glorify God. This is evident in the fact that many laws are specificaly contradicted in the new Testement. For example, in the law we are told to take a eye for an eye (Exodus 21:24), but Jesus commands us not to (Matthew 5:38-40)

There is no "new covenant". Jesus brought with him a new interpetation of the old.

The writer of Hebrews specificaly calls it a new covenant:

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old [decayed]. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."
(Hebrews 8:13)

 

[TasManOfGod]

And this is the substance of the new covenant:
I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts.... " Heb 8:10
Now what do you suppose those laws would be and where do you think we might find details of them?

 

[Lumen]

^HA!

I rarely say this to a post but AMEN!!

 

[eieiowe61]

I was appalled that my beautiful very fair-skinned daughter--who spent her entire life in Christian daycare and school, graduating at the top of her class last year--got a huge lizard tatoo'd on her lower back after graduation, I suppose to keep up with her fiance, a professional firefighter who got a huge Irish firefighting emblem tatoo'd on his arm.

No, I didn't pass judgement or ridicule her, but did ask her why the lizard! I often thought if I was so led to get a tatoo, I'd opt for the blue and white BMW roundel (Bimmers are my worldly passion).

But the pain and permanency will surely keep me from getting one!

 

[TasManOfGod]

I was appalled that my beautiful very fair-skinned daughter--who spent her entire life in Christian daycare and school, graduating at the top of her class last year--got a huge lizard tatoo'd on her lower back after graduation, I suppose to keep up with her fiance, a professional firefighter who got a huge Irish firefighting emblem tatoo'd on his arm.

No, I didn't pass judgement or ridicule her, but did ask her why the lizard! I often thought if I was so led to get a tatoo, I'd opt for the blue and white BMW roundel (Bimmers are my worldly passion).

But the pain and permanency will surely keep me from getting one!

If just one like your daughter could be saved from getting the same through Godly fellowship on CF, it is worth what it takes to speak in support of God's will on tattoos.

 

[BoranJarami]

And this is the substance of the new covenant:
I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts.... " Heb 8:10

Yes, absolutly. This is the nature of the new covenant.

Now what do you suppose those laws would be and where do you think we might find details of them?

Well, let's think about this for a moment. The New Covenant is the law of God that will be written on our hearts and in our minds:

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: "
(Hebrews 8:10)

And this new covenant replaced the first one:

"In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."
(Hebrews 8:13)

What then are the laws that he will write on our heart and mind? Is it the laws that he gave to Israel in the old testiment?

We are told in the laws of the first covenant that we are to exact an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth:

"Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."
(Exodus 21:24-25)

But Jesus preaches against this in his sermon on the mount:

"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also."
(Matthew 5:38-40)

It seems kind of odd for Jesus to be shunning the very laws he has come to write on our hearts, doesn't it? Why might Jesus in the sermon on the mount have rejected the laws of the first covenant and in their place gave new instructions?

A hint can be found at the top of Hebrews 10:

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."
(Hebrews 10:1)

The law of the old testiment is only a shadow of the true law that Christ came to give. It was this new law that Christ delivered in the sermon on the mount and throughout his ministry. It is the new law that Christ has written on our hearts.

And besides that, I have yet to see a single verse that says that tatoos are a sin. The only one that has been provided here was referenceing marking one's self for the dead. Even if this was referenceing tatoos (which the Hebrew shows it does not) they are tatoos used in a pagan ritual for remembering the dead. I don't now anyone that gets them for that purpose.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Perhaps BJ you are unaware that the origin of the prophecy is Jeremiah 31:33 at which time the laws that were in place were the Law of Moses. Because God says He will put My law in their hearts .... and I will be their God , are you talking about a different god or what?
My God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow so I guess His law is as well - Jesus even said as much.

 

[BoranJarami]

Perhaps BJ you are unaware that the origin of the prophecy is Jeremiah 31:33 at which time the laws that were in place were the Law of Moses.

I am quite aware of this.

Because God says He will put My law in their hearts .... and I will be their God , are you talking about a different god or what?

Absolutly not. There is only one God, and of him I speak. God did say that he will put "my law" on their hearts at that time. The problem is that he was not refering to the law that he gave Israel, but the full and complete law that was to come. Several statements from the New testiment, as I have already mentioned, attest to this.

Remember that the Bible says that old law is just a shadow of what was to come. The law that he gave to Israel was for a certain people, at a certain time. The full law which Jesus brought was for all people and all times. Would most Jews have misunderstood this? Yes, just like they misunderstood most of the proficies concerning the comeing of the Messiah.

My God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow so I guess His law is as well - Jesus even said as much.

Once again, I completely agree. God is the same yesturday, today, and tomorrow. But since we as humans change, so does the way God deals with us. Do we still only have to not eat the fruit? No, man changed and so did the way God deals with him, but God is still the same. This is no different.

And Jesus never said that the law of God never changes. On the contrary, I have already mentioned how Jesus in fact said that the law has changed.

But let's just say for a moment that we should still be bound to following the law. Show me where it says in the law that it is wrong to get a tatoo. I have yet to see any verses that say this.

 

[TheDag]

No God has not changed -He has just has given us a different way of showing His love for us. If He once thought tattoos were unholy He still thinks they are unholy

I, just like BJ, would also like to see a verse
that says tattoos are not permitted. If you use Lev 19:28 like you have previously then I want to know if you are going to follow the rest of the instructions in Lev 19.

 

[TasManOfGod]

Each aspect of the Law that was not specific to the Children of Israel following their coming out of captivity is the same law that God has written on our hearts. There are aspects concerning the pagan practices of Egypt that do not apply , there are health issues regarding certain foods that do not apply, and there are issues concerning the sacrifices and other matters of the tabenacle that do not apply. Moral issues and matters relating to the well being for Holy living do apply which includes the instruction regarding marking the skin -(tattoos ) -Lev 19:28
These matters and others concerning the life we have in Jesus are certainly written on my heart and I thank God for the complete work of Calvary that enabled that to be so. I hope you all have been similarly blessed.

 

[BoranJarami]

Each aspect of the Law that was not specific to the Children of Israel following their coming out of captivity is the same law that God has written on our hearts. There are aspects concerning the pagan practices of Egypt that do not apply , there are health issues regarding certain foods that do not apply, and there are issues concerning the sacrifices and other matters of the tabenacle that do not apply. Moral issues and matters relating to the well being for Holy living do apply which includes the instruction regarding marking the skin -(tattoos ) -Lev 19:28

There is a problem with your logic here. First of all, Leviticus 19:28 is concerning the pagan practices of Cainnanites concerning the dead. Secondly, this verse only refers to marks made on behalf of the dead, not to marks made because they look good ( the tatoo owners opinion, not mine). Thirdly, the Hebrew word translated "mark" in this verse has nothing to do with drawing a picture or to mark with ink. It is a specific form of marking where the skin is seared with heat. In other words, branding. Which was a commmon practice among some cainnanite cultures as a way of remembering and in some cases even worshiping the dead.

 

[TasManOfGod]

The first part of verse 28 refers to the making of cuttings for the dead the second part is marking for any reason at all. Both are unholy. Ask any Jewish priest at the wailing wall if they have tattoos?
Tip toeing around scriptures to make them fit a lifestyle that you may want to engage in is not what Christianity is all about. Recieving forgiveness for any wrong doing and avoiding being a stumbling block for others is.

 

[plum]

The same passage in Leviticus also says we are not to wear clothing of a mixed blend. That means polyester coton is forbidden. I would be extremely surprised if I went through your wardrobe and found no clothing of a mixed blend. (polyester cotton is not the only common type of mixed blend). If we do take Lev 19:28 to mean no tattoos rather than in its proper context then we MUST follow the law about clothing as well.

Not that I disagree with your overall premise... but if you're going to use a verse as evidence, you might as well use the correct evidence

http://www.beingjewish.com/mitzvos/shatnez.html
For some reason, many people believe that it is forbidden to wear clothing that contains mixtures of different fibers.

This is incorrect.

However, the Torah does forbid us to mix linen and wool in our clothes. And wool refers specifically to the wool of sheep, lamb and rams. Other fibers, however, are absolutely permitted. Many fabrics today have mixed fibers and are not 100% any particular one material, and this is usually permitted, unless wool and linen (or wool products and linen products) are mixed.

It is easy to make claims, so I will cite a legal source, no less than the great Maimonides himself. The Rambam (Maimonides), in Hilchos Kilayim (Laws of Mixtures) Chapter 10, Law 1, says quite explicitly:

Nothing at all is forbidden in clothing mixtures except wool and linen mixed together. As it says in the Torah (Deuteronomy 22:11): Do not wear shaatnez, wool and linen together.​

In other words, the Rambam is saying that the Torah states explicitly that shaatnez is wool and linen together, and not any other mixture. Any other mixture in clothing is permissible.

But, like I said... I agree with the premise that you can't pick and choose which commandments you follow.

---------------------------------
​

Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
(Leviticus 19:28)

If you choose to stick with the letter of the law, then I must point out that this verse has absolutly nothing to do with tatoos. The word translated "print" here is nathan and means to place or set and the word translated "marks" is k'thobeth qa'aqa' which has to do with branding (which uses heat to burn the skin). In other words we are not to cut or burn ourselves (at least not for the dead).

I agree.

He most certainly did. On a number of occasions he healed on the sabbath, once even mixeing mud to do it. In response he never said that what he was doing was not work, he instead asked which was better, to not work on the sabbath or heal.

I reject the Messiah that does not perfectly follow the Torah of G-d. He is not a sinner!

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]3:4[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.[/FONT]

There is only one law.
Do you realize that a sign of a false prophet and a false Messiah is breaking Torah? That's why the Pharisees and Sadducees kept trying to trap him! They wanted him to break/denounce/abolish Torah so they could prove he wasn't who he said he was! But he didn't, because he was sinless.

And if he was sinful, like you say he was, then he is not G-d. He is not Messiah. and We should reject him for the fraud that he is.

How does it glorify God to not shave your beard or wear cloths made from different materials? The law neither brings glory to God, nor does it save man. Paul told us that the purpose of the law was to show us that we are sinners (Romans 7:7). It is not good to use the law to glorify God because as the writer of Hebrews tells us, the law was only a shadow of what was to come (Hebrews 10:1). Therefore it is better to glorify God not with the shadow but the fullness which we were given To us by the Christ.

1) I already touched on the fabric issue above.

2) I'm fairly certain the word "only" does not occur in the original language in Hebrews 10:1. That word was put in by translators and displays a bit of their bias. that passage of Hebrews is confusing, but I wanted to point out the error.

3) I'm greatly, deeply offended that you'd call G-d's Holy Scripture and intructions "not good to use to glorify G-d" and that they don't bring glory to G-d. I don't mean to be argumentative, but can you see someone looking into the eyes of the L-rd and saying "Your Scripture is meaningless to me. I don't think it glorifies you."


Do you not agree with the following:

2 Tim 3:
15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Sorry, but he isn't talking about the New Testament here. there was only 1 set of Scriptures used for teaching, rebuking, training in righteousness, and for learning the way to salvation through Messiah... and that contained the Torah... how do you reconcile the complete contradiction?

Once again, I don't mean to come off rude. I hope I have not offended anyone.

shalom

 

[If Not For Grace]

. I have a friend of mine who just got one, and is still trying to prove to him selve that thier aint nothing wrong with them. Please give me book chapter verse where it talks about body markings.
/quote]

There is another thing recommended in this book that I read...don't argue with a pharisee..(Its not my place to judge him or you)...

 

[plum]

The first part of verse 28 refers to the making of cuttings for the dead the second part is marking for any reason at all. Both are unholy. Ask any Jewish priest at the wailing wall if they have tattoos?
Tip toeing around scriptures to make them fit a lifestyle that you may want to engage in is not what Christianity is all about. Recieving forgiveness for any wrong doing and avoiding being a stumbling block for others is.

so if we have dinner together you won't eat any unkosher foods, right? because it's a stumbling block for me as I am trying to follow G-d's laws.

 

[TasManOfGod]

For Christians contemplating getting a tattoo, check out his site first:
http://www.biblebelievers.com/watkins_tattoos/intro.html
TO TATTOO OR NOT TO TATTOO

 

[Arclight610]

Ha, that website is such a crock. Just because I have a tattoo doesn't mean I worship Satan or I'm glorifying death.

-TJ-

 

[Mling]

Ha, that website is such a crock. Just because I have a tattoo doesn't mean I worship Satan or I'm glorifying death.

But...it says "To....or Not..." a title like that means it's Fair and Balanced! You've never had, say, a glucose or kidney function test, have you? Because they draw blood for those, and bleeding is inherently Satanic. Next time I go to a blood drive, I'll let the Red Cross know.