Talmud

mishkan · Jun 5, 2012

yonah_mishael said:
What's interesting is that there are maybe four or five pages from within the Talmud that I've ever seen Christians talk about. They like to talk about the passage about the name of the Messiah (especially the one about the "leper scholar," since they claims it supports interpreting Isaiah 53 as a messianic prophecy), the part about the time limitations on the messianic timetable, the section about "Yeshu HaNotsri" being hanged on a tree and the pursuit of his disciples. There are also some other passages that deal with this "Yeshu HaNotsri." This is all that I've seen Christians interested in, so I don't know why they would go on to want to read and study the rest of the Talmud, which deals completely with Jewish religious practice and has nothing to do with anything that Christians would generally be interested in.

Know what I mean?

I read Pikei Avot through once every year or two.

I have read most of tractate Sanhedrin twice--once straight through, then reviewing with emphasis on messianic sections.

Studied tractate Pesachim carefully a couple years ago.

Have almost completed careful reading of Yevamot.

Have read much of Makkot. I love section 24, where the entire Torah is reduced to the saying, "The just shall live by faith".

Then there are the various one-offs, just checking out a reference somebody gave me.

Basically, I love trotting out the Talmud now and then, and studying it just to see what I see.

Lulav · Jun 5, 2012

Steve Petersen said:
I would have to see evidence that the Torah and Haftarah portions were the same in Jesus' day as they are today. I have heard that there may have been a triennial Torah cycle at one time.

Right, also when were the passages given chapters and verse numbers?

Lulav · Jun 5, 2012

yedida said:
I had heard that the triennial method was more in use in Yeshua's time than the annual. Personally, I really dislike it. It causes you to jump from the one to the next with large sections left either unread (that would be the reader's fault, of course) and/or undiscussed (and many just getting started in the Tanakh, this can be very problematic).

In the Torah group I used to have we were debating on wither or not to go with the three year cycle. There are merits to both. We decided to keep with the community and go with the yearly. I know what you mean by it being confusing, but if this is what was done in the first century, as some believe, there may be an underlining reason for this.

Some have been able to date exactly when it was that Yeshua read from Isaiah and what Torah parsha went with it. It's been awhile so I don't recall what it was.

Lulav · Jun 5, 2012

pat34lee said:
Thanks, I need to get back to work. Bills and stuff. And its good to see you still here.

This is from the link in my earlier post (bold font added for emphasis by me):
A perusal of the list of haftarot read today reveals that the chapter that Jesus recited in the synagogue in Nazareth is not read on any of the days in the Jewish calendar on which a haftarah follows the Torah reading that is, on none of the Sabbaths nor on any of the major holidays or fast days. This statement also holds true for the "special" Sabbaths during the year that is, when the Sabbath coincides with rosh hodesh (the first day of the month), Hanukkah, one of the intermediate days of Passover or Sukkot, etc. This point is especially blatant with respect to the seven Sabbaths between Tisha B'Av and Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. On each of them, haftarot are read from the chapters of consolation in the Book of Isaiah (chapter 40 onward). Is this merely a coincidence? Apparently, Isaiah 61:1 is deliberately not read in the synagogue, but it is difficult to determine when and where the decision was made to exclude it. The heads of Jewish communities, who had some familiarity with Christian faith and literature, preferred to refrain from reading the same chapter Jesus read in the synagogue in Nazareth, which he claimed corroborated his divine mission on earth. When the customs concerning the fixed haftarah readings were formalized, the abhorrence felt toward this chapter remained and is reflected in its exclusion from the list of haftarot in use today. This point is especially noteworthy given the fact that the chapters preceding and following that problematic passage chapter 60, and the end of chapter 61 and chapters 62 and 63, respectively are read each year in public as haftarot.
What happened to Jesus' haftarah? - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

Ah, I understand what you mean now, must have missed your other post. While this is an old article it is surprising that it is found on Ha'Aretz

The rabbis who instituted weekly readings from the Prophets as part of the Sabbath liturgy excluded all the biblical verses on which Christians based their principles of faith in the New Testament.

It seems that that isn't the only one that is excluded.

Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 42:1-4 and Isaiah 52:13
Jeremiah 31 which ends at verse 20
Hoshea 11:1
Micah 5:2,
Zechariah 9:9, 12:13
Malachi 3:1

Nevertheless, it would appear that the phenomenon is not mere coincidence and that the trend discussed in the above examples and in others that have not been mentioned, was consciously implemented.

Steve Petersen · Jun 5, 2012

IIRC, it was also customary for visiting teachers to be given the privilege of selecting a reading and doing commentary. If this is what Jesus was doing, it might not be a parsha selection at all, but his own.

Again, where is the evidence of set and established readings from the Haftarah in Jesus day? I have yet to see anyone provide evidence and details. It is ASSUMED that they were the same as today. Given the politics of the various Jewish sects in Second Temple Judaim I find it highly unlikely that there were agreed upon, established readings.

Lulav · Jun 5, 2012

Steve Petersen said:
IIRC, it was also customary for visiting teachers to be given the privilege of selecting a reading and doing commentary. If this is what Jesus was doing, it might not be a parsha selection at all, but his own.

But would he be visiting? This was his home synagogue, right? The only info we seem to have on this is that

A. He stood up to read (nothing about being called up to read)

B. The Scroll of Isaiah was handed to him (not placed on the bima) strange as that's a pretty heavy scroll since it included Zechariah as well

C. He 'found the place' suggesting he located what he wanted by unrolling it, meaning it wasn't stopped at that part?

16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. 17 The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:

I wonder if these scrolls were on one tree or two? which would help to imagine how or if he could unroll it himself?

Lulav · Jun 5, 2012

Steve Petersen said:
Again, where is the evidence of set and established readings from the Haftarah in Jesus day? I have yet to see anyone provide evidence and details. It is ASSUMED that they were the same as today. Given the politics of the various Jewish sects in Second Temple Judaim I find it highly unlikely that there were agreed upon, established readings.

The article stated:

However, during the Talmudic period and for many years afterward, it was customary in Palestine and in other countries, especially Egypt, to read the Torah in accordance with a cycle lasting approximately three and a half years. In line with this practice, the Torah was divided into sedarim, whose number vastly exceeded the number of portions that are read in accordance with the current custom. At least one haftarah was selected to match each Torah reading.

Steve Petersen · Jun 5, 2012

Lulav said:
The article stated:

The Talmudic period is much later than Second Temple times by several hundred years.

Also, the article indicates Torah cycles, but it does not indicate that the parshot were identical with today.

Lulav · Jun 5, 2012

Steve Petersen said:
The Talmudic period is much later than Second Temple times by several hundred years.

Also, the article indicates Torah cycles, but it does not indicate that the parshot were identical with today.

The Talmudic period started right after the destruction of the temple, at least according to some sources.

Yes, that is the jist, trying to find out when they changed, but they say that the oldest writings we have that this was the order of service in the synagogue was that the Torah and the prophets were read.

xDenax · Jun 5, 2012

awakeningekklesia said:
From my understanding the knowledge in the Talmud is the top end of Jewish thought. On that note I conclude my reasoning. I want the deep thought. I want the deep reasoning. Is the Talmud a massive headache to me? Yes sir. Do I understand alot of it. No sir. I know it's not inspired by God so I take is as a grain of salt. And I hope you know, you giving me these reasons to not study it, is only fueling and building my want to study it my friend

Understanding Talmud takes a lot of background information. You don't just start out with it. You may wonder why I care? I care because I don't want Christians studying Talmud on their own, coming to their own conclusions and then going out and sharing false information about what Jews do, teach or believe. We already have enough of that going around.

Lulav · Jun 5, 2012

xDenax said:
Understanding Talmud takes a lot of background information. You don't just start out with it. You may wonder why I care? I care because I don't want Christians studying Talmud on their own, coming to their own conclusions and then going out and sharing false information about what Jews do, teach or believe. We already have enough of that going around.

And that can happen with any historical documents. I think the more you protest against it, the more tantalizing it becomes.

yonah_mishael · Jun 6, 2012

awakeningekklesia said:
Well what is then

Learning to observe the mitzvot. It's performance, not what books you've read.

yonah_mishael · Jun 6, 2012

pat34lee said:
Do you know of any excluded sections that do not contain some messianic reference(s) used by Christians?

What do you mean by "excluded"? Nothing was "excluded" from the haftarot. You've got it backwards. You're thinking that the rabbis took the whole of the Prophets and read all of it - and then decided to exclude certain passages that early members of the Jesus took as proofs of his messiahship. That's not how it happened at all.

yonah_mishael · Jun 6, 2012

pat34lee said:
Thanks, I need to get back to work. Bills and stuff. And its good to see you still here.

This is from the link in my earlier post (bold font added for emphasis by me):
A perusal of the list of haftarot read today reveals that the chapter that Jesus recited in the synagogue in Nazareth is not read on any of the days in the Jewish calendar on which a haftarah follows the Torah reading that is, on none of the Sabbaths nor on any of the major holidays or fast days. This statement also holds true for the "special" Sabbaths during the year that is, when the Sabbath coincides with rosh hodesh (the first day of the month), Hanukkah, one of the intermediate days of Passover or Sukkot, etc. This point is especially blatant with respect to the seven Sabbaths between Tisha B'Av and Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. On each of them, haftarot are read from the chapters of consolation in the Book of Isaiah (chapter 40 onward). Is this merely a coincidence? Apparently, Isaiah 61:1 is deliberately not read in the synagogue, but it is difficult to determine when and where the decision was made to exclude it. The heads of Jewish communities, who had some familiarity with Christian faith and literature, preferred to refrain from reading the same chapter Jesus read in the synagogue in Nazareth, which he claimed corroborated his divine mission on earth. When the customs concerning the fixed haftarah readings were formalized, the abhorrence felt toward this chapter remained and is reflected in its exclusion from the list of haftarot in use today. This point is especially noteworthy given the fact that the chapters preceding and following that problematic passage chapter 60, and the end of chapter 61 and chapters 62 and 63, respectively are read each year in public as haftarot.
What happened to Jesus' haftarah? - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News

It suggests to me that (1) Jesus might have read a passage of his own choosing, quite apart from the cycle of the haftarot; or, (2) he never read that portion at all and the gospel writer just put those words in his mouth.

yonah_mishael · Jun 6, 2012

Steve Petersen said:
IIRC, it was also customary for visiting teachers to be given the privilege of selecting a reading and doing commentary. If this is what Jesus was doing, it might not be a parsha selection at all, but his own.

Again, where is the evidence of set and established readings from the Haftarah in Jesus day? I have yet to see anyone provide evidence and details. It is ASSUMED that they were the same as today. Given the politics of the various Jewish sects in Second Temple Judaim I find it highly unlikely that there were agreed upon, established readings.

+1

Lulav · Jun 6, 2012

yonah_mishael said:
What do you mean by "excluded"? Nothing was "excluded" from the haftarot. You've got it backwards. You're thinking that the rabbis took the whole of the Prophets and read all of it - and then decided to exclude certain passages that early members of the Jesus took as proofs of his messiahship. That's not how it happened at all.

He is going off that article at Haaretz, which is not a Christian newspaper last time I looked. Specifically this:

The rabbis who instituted weekly readings from the Prophets as part of the Sabbath liturgy excluded all the biblical verses on which Christians based their principles of faith in the New Testament.

It seems that that isn't the only one that is excluded.

Isaiah 7:14, Isaiah 42:1-4 and Isaiah 52:13
Jeremiah 31 which ends at verse 20
Hoshea 11:1
Micah 5:2,
Zechariah 9:9, 12:13
Malachi 3:1

Nevertheless, it would appear that the phenomenon is not mere coincidence and that the trend discussed in the above examples and in others that have not been mentioned, was consciously implemented.

If you don't agree, there is room for comments on the article. I can certainly see why they would do this, can't you?

Lulav · Jun 6, 2012

yonah_mishael said:
+1

What are you giving points for? The whole post? How about the fact that this was Yeshua's home synagogue so he wouldn't be a 'visiting' Rabbi?

pat34lee · Jun 6, 2012

yonah_mishael said:
It suggests to me that (1) Jesus might have read a passage of his own choosing, quite apart from the cycle of the haftarot; or, (2) he never read that portion at all and the gospel writer just put those words in his mouth.

The first could be considered, but it doesn't say that he asked for the scroll of Isaiah. It was brought to him, and he opened it to that passage.

The second option is not an option unless the verse contradicts other scripture or there is a valid reason to think that it has been altered.

yonah_mishael · Jun 6, 2012

pat34lee said:
The first could be considered, but it doesn't say that he asked for the scroll of Isaiah. It was brought to him, and he opened it to that passage.

Isaiah is a big scroll and very popular.

pat34lee said:
The second option is not an option unless the verse contradicts other scripture or there is a valid reason to think that it has been altered.

Depends on who is being asked. "Valid" or "invalid" is up for debate.

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