Talmud/kabbalism

[Buccaneer]

I found some stuff on writings of the Talmud and was quite shocked at what some of it said:

Noahide Laws for conversion of Gentiles for the coming utopia: Sanhedrin 56-60
Christians are children of Eve and the serpent: Zohar 1, 28b.
The seed of Christians the seed of beast: Kethuboth 3b.
Christian people are like asses: Kidduschim 68a.
Jews called men, but Christians not called men: Iebhammoth 61a.
Sexual intercourse with Christians same as a beast: Sanhedrin 74b.
Souls of Gentiles have unclean origins: Zohar 1, 46b 47b.
Christian Churches are places of Idolatry: Abhodah Azarah 78.
High place in heaven for those who kill idolaters: Zohar L, 38b 39a.
Christians and animals grouped for comparisons: Orach Chaiim 225, 10.
Non-Jews souls go down to hell: Rosch Haschanach 17b.
Adam had sexual relations with animals: Yebamoth 63a.
Deeds of Jews righteous but Gentiles are sin: Baba Bathra 10b.
Divine presence rests only on Jews: Berakoth 7a.
Forbidden to teach Gentiles God's Law: Megillah 15b.
All Gentiles are *******s and only animals: Yebamoth 98a.
Gentile girls are "niddah" unclean: Abodah Zarah 36b.
Gentiles who study the Law deserve death: Sanhedrin 59a.
Gentiles outside the legal protection of the Laws of Israel: Baba Kamma 38a.
Eve had sex with the devil conveying lust to Gentiles: Abodah Zarah 22a.
Israelites exempt from the lust infused by the devil in Eve: Abodah Zarah 22b.
Jesus was a ******* born of adultery: Yebamoth 49b.
He was a fool, and we do not pay attention to what fools do: Sanhedrin 67a
Speaking of Jesus, ...practices sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy: Sanhedrin 43a
Speaking of Jesus, ...bloody and deceitful: Sanhedrin 106b
Speaking of Jesus counted among, ...sinners of Israel: Gittin 56b
Jesus was excommunicated for the thought of seducing a woman and in his ensuing grief he fell down and worshipped a brick: Sanhedrin 106a.
Speaking of the soul of Jesus, ...he is now in hell: Gittin 56b-57a
Going to prostitutes same as becoming a Christian: Abodah Zarah 17a.
When Messiah comes he will destroy the Christians: Sanhedrin 99a.
Hatred of Christians is commanded in Psalms 139:21: Shabbath 116a .
Gospels are the falsehood of blank paper: Shabbath 116a.
Gentile men prefer sex with cows than their wives: Abodah Zarah 26a.
Replace dead Christians like a lost cow or ass: Iore Dea 337, 1.
Male animals not to be left with Gentile women: Abhodah Zarah 15b.
Gentiles fornicate with sheep: Abhodah Zarah 22b.
Gentiles unclean because they were not at Sinai: Abhodah Zarah 22b.
The seed of a Gentile the same as that of a beast: Kethuboth 3b.
Animals in the form of Gentiles to minister to Jews: Midrasch Talpioth 225d.
Gentiles are children of the serpent that seduced Eve: Zohar I, 28b.
God created or predestinated two natures, good and evil or one nature with two sides, one clean and the other unclean. Gentiles come from the unclean side and are called "Kelipath or Kelipot" rind, or scabby crust: Zohar I, 131a.
The front of a female is said to be the right or correct side. The rear of a female is said to be the left or incorrect side. Thus, Rabbi Eliezer, speaking of the Gentiles says: "where do the idolatrous Gentiles come from? From the left side, which makes their souls unclean. They are therefore unclean and they pollute all who come in contact with them: Zohar I, 46b 47a.
Jews do not need blood sacrifice to achieve forgiveness: Megillah 31b.
Israel's sins were atoned for by the garments of the priests: Zebahim 88b.
Studying the Bible is indifference to God: Baba Mezia 33a.
Studying the Talmud is meritorious: Baba Mezia 33a.
Studying the Bible after the Talmud produces trouble: Hagigah 10a.

From Jewish antichrist book: Toldoth Jesu
Jesus was crucified on a cabbage stock
Judas urinated on Jesus
Mary was a harlot
Jesus the son of a whoremonger named Joseph Pandora


Some of you in posts have made references to the Talmud and so forth, and it seems in direct opposition to what we all believe including the denoucing of Yeshua. Also, Kabblism to me seems to have simularities with witchcraft and so forth which God is said to hate. I apologize for the crappy support to this but it has been on my mind alot. and i havnt had time to research it deeply.

 

[Henaynei]

that comes from a typical anti-semetic site - it is a not infrequent ploy for them to twist and maul things they have been told or heard or even think they have seen... but neither understand nor want to understand the truth.......

 

[Henaynei]

these might interest you:

Beautiful Talmud

The Talmud Exposed

Fighting Hate: Myth Busters

The real truth about the Talmud

 

[simchat_torah]

I've seen much of that presented above. Nearly all of those passages are taken way out of context or even drastically misquoted! lol...

its similar to when I heard this one preacher say that Paul asked, "What good is there in being a Jew?" and he stopped there and went on to talk about how it is worthless to be a Jew.

Its kinda funny cause Paul goes on to answer that question by saying, "Much! For they were entrusted with the oracles (Torah)..." etc. He goes on from there to describe the value of being Jewish.

Quite funny, this stuff you've got quoted there uses the same tactics... exactly the same tactics.

 

[Buccaneer]

Which is why i brought it for examination. None of those were typed personally by me.

 

[Henaynei]

Which is why i brought it for examination. None of those were typed personally by me.

We are quite aware of that Buccaneer as most of us have seen this or similar slanders of Jewish writings numerous times.

A couple of hints to assist you as you wander the web seeking out information on MJism and Judaism:

1) always surf back into the home page and a few other pages of a site - look and see what their over all message is and who they are or their sponsor is, see what webring(s) they are on..... this will give you a good idea usually of who and what they are - quite often they are Islamic, Palestinian or white supremists.

2) do a followup google or other web search - I found those sources I quoted above just goodling "lies Talmud." But again, apply #1 to these sites as well

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[ShirChadash]

Yep, and another thought -- I usually go fairly quickly to the "articles" or library portion of a site, because if anything truly exposes the ins and outs of a site's doctrines down to the nitty-gritty, it's usually their articles. Sites/groups can make their "beliefs" sound pretty good, until you get into their articles and see just what the phrases and concepts they espouse in their beliefs really MEAN, to them.

 

[Henaynei]

Yep, and another thought -- I usually go fairly quickly to the "articles" or library portion of a site, because if anything truly exposes the ins and outs of a site's doctrines down to the nitty-gritty, it's usually their articles. Sites/groups can make their "beliefs" sound pretty good, until you get into their articles and see just what the phrases and concepts they espouse in their beliefs really MEAN, to them.

Good point!!

 

[Buccaneer]

No time but heres a quote from one of your sites:

"The first two accusations are essentially frivolous. What business is it of Christians if the Jewish Talmud is considered holier than the Bible (which it isn't)? And if Jews do not take the account of the Christian NT to be totally historically accurate, so what? To fundamentalist Christians, EVERY other religion is considered blasphemous. Why should the Talmud be judged within the Christian religious framework? Of course, any Jewish book is blasphemous within that framework because Judaism does not accept Jesus as the messiah. The very accusation that the Jewish Talmud is blasphemous to Christianity is redundant."

I have to ask why if the Talmud is not considered actual scripture to some if not most every jew, and if it was written after the gospels and was more commentary of rabbis and such of that time instead of devine revelation from God, why do messianics give the talmud any special pedistol. the above quote admits the talmud is not in anyway supportive of Yeshua, so it seems kind of in the lines of hypocrisy or anti-sense to believe in him and yet also give foundation to a rabbianical commentary that is simply the jewish leadership of the day's opinion of what god intended.

Quote from another source i found
"God does not care too much for the traditions of man. In fact, His patience is tested with traditions. Before the dispersion in 586 BCE, Israel's relation to God had become a "tradition learned by rote" (Isaiah 29:13/Messiah quotes this same passage in the gospels of Matthew and Mark). This is translated from the Hebrew meaning literally the "commandment of rulers". Israel only honored God with their actions, not with their hearts. God's appointed feasts had become Israel's appointed feasts (Isaiah 1:14/Hosea 2:11). The people had begun to walk in their own way and in the desires of their own heart. They did not listen to God, instead their evil increased. It became so bad that God told Jeremiah not to pray for them (Jeremiah 7:8-34). When men transgress the commandments of God and go beyond what He has planned, their hearts become filled with evil. This is the exact pattern which Ha'Satan fell into in the beginning (Ezekiel 28:12b-17).
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes regarding the traditions of men:


"neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." (Mark 7:8)
"and why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matthew 15:3)

"thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:13)

They were so caught up in tradition, they could not see the coming of the Messiah they had been waiting for; they did not know the time of their visitation (Luke 19:44).

John speaks of those who had gone too far in the teaching of Messiah; they do not have God (2 John 1:9). Traditions put men in bondage; the commandments of God make men free. Paul directs us not to follow the traditions of men lest we be taken captive (Colossians 2:8). It is the things of the world that hold us in bondage (Galatians 4:3). The word of God is truth and this truth will set us free (John 8:32).

"To the law and to the testimony? If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (Isaiah 8:20) "

"Nothing beyond what is written"

They say that some take it out of context, i personally for the record remain impartial to either side and i am only finding opinions on this subject as part of research.i am not promoting anti-semetism.
Though it is said many things are taken out of context by christians and others against them, i want to know what can elsewise be gained from the quotes which speak of that which was in the initial post. How can the 'new covenant' and the talmud both coexist as truth. It is said a man cannot serve two masters and while dont convict me with mensing words, i cannot see whether it be due to reason or ignorance how talmud and the holy gospels can both be true.

 

[Henaynei]

No time but heres a quote from one of your sites:

"The first two accusations are essentially frivolous. What business is it of Christians if the Jewish Talmud is considered holier than the Bible (which it isn't)? And if Jews do not take the account of the Christian NT to be totally historically accurate, so what? To fundamentalist Christians, EVERY other religion is considered blasphemous. Why should the Talmud be judged within the Christian religious framework? Of course, any Jewish book is blasphemous within that framework because Judaism does not accept Jesus as the messiah. The very accusation that the Jewish Talmud is blasphemous to Christianity is redundant."

I have to ask why if the Talmud is not considered actual scripture to some if not most every jew, and if it was written after the gospels and was more commentary of rabbis and such of that time instead of devine revelation from God, why do messianics give the talmud any special pedistol. the above quote admits the talmud is not in anyway supportive of Yeshua, so it seems kind of in the lines of hypocrisy or anti-sense to believe in him and yet also give foundation to a rabbianical commentary that is simply the jewish leadership of the day's opinion of what god intended.

It is the opinion of many in MJism that Yeshua IS the Torah - therefore that part of the Talmud which supports Torah, thus supports Yeshua. The writer of the above is a non-Messianic Jew and yone must read his comments and opinions with that understanding. He is rebutting the attack on the Talmud, not making apologetics for Yeshua or Messianinc Judaism.

Quote from another source i found:
"God does not care too much for the traditions of man. In fact, His patience is tested with traditions. Before the dispersion in 586 BCE, Israel's relation to God had become a "tradition learned by rote" (Isaiah 29:13/Messiah quotes this same passage in the gospels of Matthew and Mark). This is translated from the Hebrew meaning literally the "commandment of rulers". Israel only honored God with their actions, not with their hearts. God's appointed feasts had become Israel's appointed feasts (Isaiah 1:14/Hosea 2:11). The people had begun to walk in their own way and in the desires of their own heart. They did not listen to God, instead their evil increased. It became so bad that God told Jeremiah not to pray for them (Jeremiah 7:8-34). When men transgress the commandments of God and go beyond what He has planned, their hearts become filled with evil. This is the exact pattern which Ha'Satan fell into in the beginning (Ezekiel 28:12b-17).
Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes regarding the traditions of men:

"neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men." (Mark 7:8)
"and why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?" (Matthew 15:3)

"thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that." (Mark 7:13)

They were so caught up in tradition, they could not see the coming of the Messiah they had been waiting for; they did not know the time of their visitation (Luke 19:44).

John speaks of those who had gone too far in the teaching of Messiah; they do not have God (2 John 1:9). Traditions put men in bondage; the commandments of God make men free. Paul directs us not to follow the traditions of men lest we be taken captive (Colossians 2:8). It is the things of the world that hold us in bondage (Galatians 4:3). The word of God is truth and this truth will set us free (John 8:32).

"To the law and to the testimony? If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn." (Isaiah 8:20) "

"Nothing beyond what is written"

They say that some take it out of context, i personally for the record remain impartial to either side and i am only finding opinions on this subject as part of research.i am not promoting anti-semetism.
Though it is said many things are taken out of context by christians and others against them, i want to know what can elsewise be gained from the quotes which speak of that which was in the initial post. How can the 'new covenant' and the talmud both coexist as truth. It is said a man cannot serve two masters and while dont convict me with mensing words, i cannot see whether it be due to reason or ignorance how talmud and the holy gospels can both be true.

This is from a Christian site, and happily or unhappily, their bias, just as above the Jewish bias, must be taken into account when reading their rebuttal of the accusations against Talmud.

IF you truly are seeking a Messianic understanding of these issues I suggest you crack open a search engine and do a bit of research. Googling "messianic Talmud" I found:

The Messianic Midrash
Introduction to the Talmud
THE TALMUD: IT'S NATURE AND SCOPE

Just as there are numerous opinions out ther ein Judaism about such topics, so too, you will find a rather broad spectrum of opinions within MJism.

b'Shalom
Henaynei